I have a serious newbie question here.

For a back-up .357 Magnum revolver ("a get off me gun" as I believe Massad Ayoob terms it), I'm reading that many prefer .38 SPL +P, especially the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel, to .357 Magnums even in their .357 Magnum J-frames, but I'm not understanding why. For example, Massad carries a department-issued S&W M&P 340 as back up while he's on duty which is a .357 Magnum revolver.

I know that Hornady makes a Critical Defense cartridge in .357 Magnum. Because the back-up revolver would be a last resort weapon, you'd want as much stopping power as possible, and it would be deployed only at a very close range, why wouldn't .357 Magnum cartridge be better and preferred by more?

There's no way to explain it where a person can understand it without experiencing it. We can tell you the answer is because of the recoil of the .357 rd. But until you experience it you really won't understand it fully. The only way to understand the answer is to borrow someone's .357 J frame, load it will full power .357 mag ammo and using a 1 hand close in hold fire off a few rounds. The answer will quickly become obvious.

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183rd FBINA

Also kinda true, the closer you are the less stopping power you need.

The farther the shot, the more you want something controllable.

I personally, will opt for a .357 revolver over a .38 +P rated revolver, assuming it is the same revolver model, simply because, maybe, someday, I might want to shoot .357 Mag.

But yes, for a medium to small revolver, Get Off Me, .38 +P short barrel formula load. Speer Gold Dots short barrel are a great option for short barrel rounds. I use them in a 3.1" little 9mm KelTec.

Accurate is more important than raw ballistic power. What you need is functional accuracy under bad conditions, potentially one handed, exhausted from a fight, and likely injured. J frames are not ergonomically friendly, so anything you do to overcome that is your friend. When I had a .38 J frame (or similar) I carried it with garden variety wadcutters and SWC for reloads.

There are people who can perform well with a .357 J frame. I'm not one of them, and the odds of there being as many as 10 members the forum who are one of those people are darned slight.

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NHI, 10-8.

Thanks, everyone!

Racer X, in general (not just talking about J-frames) the .357 Magnums are at most only a couple hundred dollar more when new than .38 SPLs, when .38 SPLs are in stock out here (California).

As a parallel, the barely used 649-5 I bought last week was only $700, vs a used 642 1-3/8" snub nose in .38 SPL for $800.

I figure that another benefit is that the .357s are heavier, reducing recoil when shooting .38 SPL and, like you said, give me the option of shooting .357 Magnum and .38 SPL +P.

I would strongly suggest a .44 special snub nose like a Charter Arms to back up a full size revolver. I know you lose the same ammo argument but none the less.

This is a last ditch effort situation so in reality it probably doesn't matter all that much but, a .38 sp. like the one mentioned above might be the best choice for this situation. The obvious choice is to shoot them better when farther away! If you are more comfortable with a .357 then go for it.

Thanks. I have never seen .44 SPL ammo available out here, much less .44 Magnum.

However, there's a snub-nose 629 or 29 for sale at the LGS for about $1,400.

Just to clarify, for many who might not know. Many manufacturers make both .38 Special, .38 Special +P, and .357 Mag on the same "frame" or "series" So opting for a .357 Mag isn't going to make it bigger or likely heavier. The cylinder will be chambered longer. I just checked, and a Ruger SP-101 comes in both .38 special +P, or you can order a .357 Mag model, same size/weight, everything. Same MSRP. Actually, there is a .357 mag with a spurless hammer. That's something to think about with a "Get off Me" firearm. Good purse gun, but heavy.

Be safe!

I have a Ruger GP-100 4" .357 Mag that will be shooting .38 Special light target reloads 98+% of the time. We go hiking in Washington bear/cougar territory, my partner will have medium loaded .357 Mag. It's her "Get off me Bear/Cougar" gun. I have 10mm semi autos.

A 629 is a pretty awesome revolver. It would preform well with +P, or magnums if you can. What are you backing up?

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Kind regards, Heinz

Oh heck yeah. a heavy 44 SPL slug into the torso anywhere is going to do the job. It's what my brother in law carries. I think it's a short Ruger.

Those would both make a great primary choice.

I was forced to use my issued .38 more than once during my career & it did its job. In my experience .357 loads are best reserved for K Frames.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I carry a Kimber K6 as a primary. I put 12 rounds of the hottest 357 rounds I could find. While I could control the gun, it hurt like hell.

My job has taken its toll on me over the years. But thankfully I don’t have arthritis in my hands. Yet. And I don’t want it either. So I’m loaded with 38 +P and a couple of speed strips as backup.

I can hit effectively at 15 yards and closer. I’m good with that.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

More power isn’t always good.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Which can "you" use to put the most rounds on target in the least amount of time.
Marksmanship trumps all.

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NEVER GIVE UP YOUR GUN

So, If the Kimber and the Smith as a New York reload, plus 2 speed strips don't work you should have brought a friend.

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Kind regards, Heinz

Truly, if you have to ask this question there is no way it can adequately be explained. A person can practice enough to overcome some pretty fierce commotion from a handgun, but when things happen fast and up-close -- which they are if you're needing the backup -- most folks will prefer something less-challenging that is still very effective if the right load is used. It's all a matter of comparing the percentages to your own satisfaction. If you know absolutely that the magnum loads will be no problem for you, using them makes sense.

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Pisgah

My favorite quote of the day!

It was either Massad Ayoob or Clint Smith, I think the former, who said the J-frame type guns, especially alloys, are designed to be shot a little and carried a lot.

Small guns using extra powerful ammunition yields diminishing returns and they hurt your hands, never mind hurting your ability to get off a second shot in a fight.

Whether carried on a belt or in a pocket this M649 can go virtually everywhere and stoked with five rounds of Winchester Silvertip HPs in .38 Special I expect it will be of great assistance in almost any nasty situation that I might encounter.



As noted many times, if I find myself going somewhere that will present a large amount of targets of opportunity to the evil and/or the deranged, think malls, houses of worship, etc., then I switch to a higher capacity 9mm. Otherwise, I'm happy with the .38 Special in an all steel revolver.

As an aside, and I have also often noted that I am not a .44 Magnum fan, but such guns loaded with .44 Specials are awesome self defense guns, they are not, even in the 3" M629 class, readily concealable for most people.

Which brings me to the original post - the OP said "back-up". I'm actually discussing a primary concealed carry gun; I don't tote two guns around as a regular thing and I'm not talking about woods walking or hunting where I would most certainly open carry a K frame or an L frame.

If the J frame is a backup what is the primary weapon?

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Come and take it!!

My experience and level of control with my 340PD is balanced at around 1050fps with 135gr or around 950fps with 158gr. I don't relegate it to just get off me status, if I was to, then I'd say go nuclear on loads but for me, using it as a primary..accuracy is paramount. It is a breeze to carry obviously but you will have to be dedicated, possibly enough to give a little blood at each session. You can start with a bandaid and go a litt!e longer but I've found keeping the frequency up and the round count per session to what you can handle with ease to be the best..go too far and you will find it is very counter productive..These little Airlites are NOT for everyone. Most will do much better with a standard weight and take the penalty for a bit heavier to carry.

michpatriot, if you like far be it from me to argue with you, but you're one of the few.

The operative term there is "bit". I carried a M642 for a very long time, disliked shooting it, sold it, switched to a M649, and I can't tell the difference in my pocket or on my belt.

I had a M638, too - it was stolen - it was CUTE! But I hated shooting it.

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Come and take it!!

ISCS Yoda, what caliber of ammo and grain were you shooting in your M638 and M642 that you disliked?

I'd opt for the M&P 340 and use Federal 130gr HST micro.

I like the .38 SPL ammo in a .357 because it causes less wear and tear, it has a better felt recoil, and it will get the job done in close quarters combat. Plus, I'd have more ammo options.

I consider shot placement and internal shot damage more important at "Get off me!" or beer breath distances than ammo velocity or some of the current ammo sales hype.

I buy .357 guns for ammo choices.

tend to carry +P .38s.

Cannot even imagine shooting any .357 load out of something like my 2" J-frame 12 oz 337PD

I current own a S&W 640 .38 Special. My preference would be to own a 640 .357. I would still stoke it with .38 +P. In a time of ammo scarcity, you can sometimes find .357 Mag ammo when you can’t find .38 Special. Versatility!

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otis

If you can consistently hit your target under the stress of real combat (someone actually trying to kill you , not a game ) with a J frame loaded with .357 Magnum loads then that would likely be the most effective . Unfortunately , most people can't do that. I could not so I would not carry Magnums in the small guns. No doubt Maas can but I can't. All I would gain carrying Magnums in that kind of situation would be more recoil and bigger muzzle flashes . Only Hits Count, Maas will tell you that also.

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Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

Depending upon your parameters and definitions , this can get into Angels dancing on pinheads territory .

IF you set your parameters of " get off me " to contact to three feet , for One Shot Only , then yeah , more power is always more better .

But as commonly conceived , the role / desired capabilities of a BUG are a lot broader . Making long discussion overly short , a BUG ( as opposed to a true hideout or an Onion Field gun) would include being able to somewhat adaquately pinch hit for a primary gun . This requires a degree of accuracy and control in addition to Reasonably Adaquate raw power .

This thread has bounced around to totally different guns and calibers , but the OP initially was discussing J Frame .

In J Frames , Frame material for frame material , .357 guns Are heavier . This was mentioned as an advantage , but it can cut both ways , particularly for a Second Gun
A 13- 16oz .38 is a different beast from a 20- plus oz .357 .

I'm something of a recoil junky , but 13oz with 158 +P is my limit , with what I consider acceptable speed and accuracy . And than with my hand hurting after a 50 COF .

Choices are many , it is important to understand exactly what you are seeking . * To Me * , breaks down to 3 catagories , YMMV can vary . :

Really small Primary Gun

BUG

Last Ditch Hideout aka Onion Field .

For the first , .357 SP101 is good , .44 Bulldog , etc would fit here also.

For second a +\- 16 oz J frame is sweet spot , steel Chief Special is classic example .

For third , I prefer a micro .32acp , but NAA Mini Revolvers and Derringers are comnon choices .

Yes , I know the People's Republic of California is a world to itself , as to prices and availability , and you have to deal with the choices in front of you .

Yep!

Those 44 Special Gold Dots have a massive crater in them.

SHORT ANSWERS

1. Because your premises may not be valid.

2. More times than I'd like, my J-frame is my PRIMARY firearm. Sure, I like to pack my 1911 GM in .45ACP, but that does not always happen.

3. You can still miss up close. Just look at the MANY stop&rob videos where many shots are fired at arm's length, but no one is hit and everyone is able to walk home to change their soiled breeches.

4. You may have to make a long(er) range shot or have to hit a small(er) target and hope to hit. The scenario we expect may not be the scenario we get dealt.

5. What was that you said? I can't hear you because I just lit off a .357mag 125gr pill in my snubby whilst being attacked in a tight corridor and I now have nigh-unbearable tinnitus and permanent hearing loss. And the recoil of that .357mag made my arthritic hand nigh upon useless for the next week, when I will finally be able to make that follow-up shot.

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FAT CHEWING

I will cut to the chase and say that I used to--before age and injuries caught up to me--stoke my snubbies with .357mag JHP or my .38spl with hot boutique +P 158gr HP. I could shoot it well enough for my purposes.
Nowadays, I feed my snubbies standard pressure semi-wadcutters & target wadcutters.

In general, choose the ammunition you can shoot well enough in your chosen J-frame to meet your requirements for accurate hits at your chosen distance.

That ammo may be different for your all-steel snubby relative to your Airlight titanium/scandium snubby. Just look at the weight differences below and reflect on Force = Mass x Acceleration or Acceleration = Force / Mass.

General SW J-frame Categories
*All-Steel
Steel frame, steel cylinder
~22oz

*Airweight
Alum alloy frame, steel cylinder
~15oz
~
*Airlight
Scandium/Alum Alloy frame, Titanium Cylinder
~12oz


Ammunition for J-frames

Lots of good ammo out there, nowadays, from mild to wild. I have packed most sorts, from hot .357mag hunting loads to target wadcutters for good reasons at the time.

.357mag in Snubby Revolvers
Yes, .357mag out of a snubby is significantly more powerful than .38spl +P. There is velocity loss from a 2" bbl, but .357mag is a mad man relative to .38spl.

*.357mag Hunting
Usually 158-180 grain, hard cast or controlled expansion HP. Worried about 4-legged threats, but don't want to pack a big revolver? Here you go. If you can manage the subjective recoil and muzzle blast. Oddly enough, easier on the shooter than hot 125gr .357mag. Winchester 180gr Partition HP was ridiculously accurate out of my .357mag snubby. And POA = POI at the ranges I cared about. Freakish and people will look at you funny if they learn you are packing serious anti-Bambi/Simba pills in your snubby. Penetration? Oh, yes.

*158gr JHP/SJHP
If you can manage the recoil, this will work like gangbusters, with less pain than 125gr. And you don't need some sort of premium hollow point. There is enough velocity for ancient JHP/SJHP to open up and wreck a human. Penetration is not excessive.

*125gr JHP/SJHP
The pinnacle of .357mag snubby pain and muzzle blast. You want some elbow room at the indoor range? Light off some of these outta your 640/649 and your neighbors may well pack up and come back another day. Recoil is vicious. Muzzle blast the the shooter is awful. Muzzle blast for someone standing next to the shooter has to be experienced. I shot these, never carried them. Too much like holding on to a firecracker on a dare. Or catching a fastball without a mitt. Terminal effect of 125gr .357mag is legendary. Penetration is not excessive.

*110gr JHP
Not too familiar with these, but hear while they wreck the target, penetration can be lacking. Never shot them. Try some, tell us about it.

*"Short BBL" or Reduced Recoil .357mag
Usually 125-135gr premium pills. They work. Still much recoil to manage.


.38SPl +P in Snubby Revolvers

*Heavy 158gr JHP +P
Generally, don't waste your time. HEAVY HP won't perform out of a snubby. Get LRN effects.

*FBI Load (+P 158gr LSWCHP) from big Ammo makers
Don't waste your time/money/recoil on them in a snubby. Not enough velocity out of a 2" bbl to justify the extra recoil of +P, as most likely the HP will not open reliably, given so many jello-warrior tests. Get LRN effects. OTOH, this is my chosen SD/HD load in my 4" bbl .357mags.

*Hotter FBI Load (+P 158gr LSWCHP) or 158gr JHP from boutique ammo makers
Such as Underwood or Buffalo Bore. They squeeze out enough velocity to open up the HP to possibly make them worth the recoil. If you can handle the recoil, this is good stuff.

*Lighter JHP +P (110-135gr)
Generally, the better premium selections of these work as advertised, especially the "Short BBL" and Treasury Load variants. Penetration can be spotty.

.38spl Standard Pressure from Snubbies


*Most any HP/JHP
Just not enough velocity to get any of the JHP to work. Maybe the old Nyclad was an exception. Generally, don;t bother as they will act like LRN, so seek increased effectiveness with more meplat.

*Lead Round Nose (158gr)
Called The Widowmaker for a reason. Mild recoil.

*Semi-wadcutter & NON-Target Wadcutter (148-158gr)
Good penetration, damage IAW meplat size. Mild recoil and muzzle blast. Some of the hotter choices are good woods carry rounds. SWC good for reloads for those that pack WC in their cylinder.

*Target Wadcutter (148gr)
.38spl snubby shooting on Easy Mode. After a workout with .38spl +P or .357mag, you will wonder at how easy it is to hit the target with these and quick follow-up shots. If you have an injured limb (in the fight or maybe a chronic condition) you will appreciate these. Penetration is good and damage commensurate to the meplat.

Standard .38 Special.

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Come and take it!!

... or L and N Frames if you shoot .357 very much.

At Roo_ster's point #2 , there's lots more potential scenarios .

In a particular situiation , the BUG could be more accessible to a free hand than primary .

In physical activity , primary could have fallen out of holster , your arm could have been bumped knocking primary from hand , and skittered away , or otherwise more expedient to draw BUG than retrieve/ search for primary . Primary malfunction or run dry , and more expedient to draw BUG . Danny Dirtball could have performed a snatch . or have your strongside arm occupied in struggling for retention/ control of primary .

All would call for BUG to substitute for a primary .

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.357 110 gr has a reputation for overexpansion/ under penetration * from a 4 inch * , the lowered velocity from a snub will typically result in Less expansion , and porportionally more penetration .

If you buy a 357 magnum you can always load it with 38 special, the opposite isn't true. Given that I'd opt for a 357 magnum. You can always start with 38 special and work your way to being comfortable enough to carry 357. Even if you never feel comfortable with 357 you could always just stick with 38/+p. The only reason I don't shoot 38 out of my 686 is residue rings form, but you can hone the chambers to deal with that and it's not anything that affects functionality so some don't care.