.38 SPL vs. .357 Magnum in Back-Up Revolver

[michpatriot]

My experience and level of control with my 340PD is balanced at around 1050fps with 135gr or around 950fps with 158gr. I don't relegate it to just get off me status, if I was to, then I'd say go nuclear on loads but for me, using it as a primary..accuracy is paramount. It is a breeze to carry obviously but you will have to be dedicated, possibly enough to give a little blood at each session. You can start with a bandaid and go a litt!e longer but I've found keeping the frequency up and the round count per session to what you can handle with ease to be the best..go too far and you will find it is very counter productive..These little Airlites are NOT for everyone. Most will do much better with a standard weight and take the penalty for a bit heavier to carry.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

michpatriot, if you like far be it from me to argue with you, but you're one of the few.

Most will do much better with a standard weight and take the penalty for a bit heavier to carry.

The operative term there is "bit". I carried a M642 for a very long time, disliked shooting it, sold it, switched to a M649, and I can't tell the difference in my pocket or on my belt.

I had a M638, too - it was stolen - it was CUTE! But I hated shooting it.

 

[giants1]

ISCS Yoda, what caliber of ammo and grain were you shooting in your M638 and M642 that you disliked?

 

[URIT]

I'd opt for the M&P 340 and use Federal 130gr HST micro.

I like the .38 SPL ammo in a .357 because it causes less wear and tear, it has a better felt recoil, and it will get the job done in close quarters combat. Plus, I'd have more ammo options.

I consider shot placement and internal shot damage more important at "Get off me!" or beer breath distances than ammo velocity or some of the current ammo sales hype.

 

[BAM-BAM]

I buy .357 guns for ammo choices.

tend to carry +P .38s.

Cannot even imagine shooting any .357 load out of something like my 2" J-frame 12 oz 337PD

 

[otis24]

I current own a S&W 640 .38 Special. My preference would be to own a 640 .357. I would still stoke it with .38 +P. In a time of ammo scarcity, you can sometimes find .357 Mag ammo when you can’t find .38 Special. Versatility!

 

[Eddie Southgate]

If you can consistently hit your target under the stress of real combat (someone actually trying to kill you , not a game ) with a J frame loaded with .357 Magnum loads then that would likely be the most effective . Unfortunately , most people can't do that. I could not so I would not carry Magnums in the small guns. No doubt Maas can but I can't. All I would gain carrying Magnums in that kind of situation would be more recoil and bigger muzzle flashes . Only Hits Count, Maas will tell you that also.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Depending upon your parameters and definitions , this can get into Angels dancing on pinheads territory .

IF you set your parameters of " get off me " to contact to three feet , for One Shot Only , then yeah , more power is always more better .

But as commonly conceived , the role / desired capabilities of a BUG are a lot broader . Making long discussion overly short , a BUG ( as opposed to a true hideout or an Onion Field gun) would include being able to somewhat adaquately pinch hit for a primary gun . This requires a degree of accuracy and control in addition to Reasonably Adaquate raw power .

This thread has bounced around to totally different guns and calibers , but the OP initially was discussing J Frame .

In J Frames , Frame material for frame material , .357 guns Are heavier . This was mentioned as an advantage , but it can cut both ways , particularly for a Second Gun
A 13- 16oz .38 is a different beast from a 20- plus oz .357 .

I'm something of a recoil junky , but 13oz with 158 +P is my limit , with what I consider acceptable speed and accuracy . And than with my hand hurting after a 50 COF .

Choices are many , it is important to understand exactly what you are seeking . * To Me * , breaks down to 3 catagories , YMMV can vary . :

Really small Primary Gun

BUG

Last Ditch Hideout aka Onion Field .

For the first , .357 SP101 is good , .44 Bulldog , etc would fit here also.

For second a +\- 16 oz J frame is sweet spot , steel Chief Special is classic example .

For third , I prefer a micro .32acp , but NAA Mini Revolvers and Derringers are comnon choices .

Yes , I know the People's Republic of California is a world to itself , as to prices and availability , and you have to deal with the choices in front of you .

 

[wood714]

I would strongly suggest a .44 special snub nose like a Charter Arms to back up a full size revolver. I know you lose the same ammo argument but none the less.

Yep!

Those 44 Special Gold Dots have a massive crater in them.

 

[roo_ster]

Because the back-up revolver would be a last resort weapon, you'd want as much stopping power as possible, and it would be deployed only at a very close range, why wouldn't .357 Magnum cartridge be better and preferred by more?

SHORT ANSWERS

1. Because your premises may not be valid.

2. More times than I'd like, my J-frame is my PRIMARY firearm. Sure, I like to pack my 1911 GM in .45ACP, but that does not always happen.

3. You can still miss up close. Just look at the MANY stop&rob videos where many shots are fired at arm's length, but no one is hit and everyone is able to walk home to change their soiled breeches.

4. You may have to make a long(er) range shot or have to hit a small(er) target and hope to hit. The scenario we expect may not be the scenario we get dealt.

5. What was that you said? I can't hear you because I just lit off a .357mag 125gr pill in my snubby whilst being attacked in a tight corridor and I now have nigh-unbearable tinnitus and permanent hearing loss. And the recoil of that .357mag made my arthritic hand nigh upon useless for the next week, when I will finally be able to make that follow-up shot.

=====================

FAT CHEWING

I will cut to the chase and say that I used to--before age and injuries caught up to me--stoke my snubbies with .357mag JHP or my .38spl with hot boutique +P 158gr HP. I could shoot it well enough for my purposes.
Nowadays, I feed my snubbies standard pressure semi-wadcutters & target wadcutters.​

In general, choose the ammunition you can shoot well enough in your chosen J-frame to meet your requirements for accurate hits at your chosen distance.

That ammo may be different for your all-steel snubby relative to your Airlight titanium/scandium snubby. Just look at the weight differences below and reflect on Force = Mass x Acceleration or Acceleration = Force / Mass.

General SW J-frame Categories
*All-Steel
Steel frame, steel cylinder
~22oz

*Airweight
Alum alloy frame, steel cylinder
~15oz
~
*Airlight
Scandium/Alum Alloy frame, Titanium Cylinder
~12oz


Ammunition for J-frames

Lots of good ammo out there, nowadays, from mild to wild. I have packed most sorts, from hot .357mag hunting loads to target wadcutters for good reasons at the time.

.357mag in Snubby Revolvers
Yes, .357mag out of a snubby is significantly more powerful than .38spl +P. There is velocity loss from a 2" bbl, but .357mag is a mad man relative to .38spl.

*.357mag Hunting
Usually 158-180 grain, hard cast or controlled expansion HP. Worried about 4-legged threats, but don't want to pack a big revolver? Here you go. If you can manage the subjective recoil and muzzle blast. Oddly enough, easier on the shooter than hot 125gr .357mag. Winchester 180gr Partition HP was ridiculously accurate out of my .357mag snubby. And POA = POI at the ranges I cared about. Freakish and people will look at you funny if they learn you are packing serious anti-Bambi/Simba pills in your snubby. Penetration? Oh, yes.

*158gr JHP/SJHP
If you can manage the recoil, this will work like gangbusters, with less pain than 125gr. And you don't need some sort of premium hollow point. There is enough velocity for ancient JHP/SJHP to open up and wreck a human. Penetration is not excessive.

*125gr JHP/SJHP
The pinnacle of .357mag snubby pain and muzzle blast. You want some elbow room at the indoor range? Light off some of these outta your 640/649 and your neighbors may well pack up and come back another day. Recoil is vicious. Muzzle blast the the shooter is awful. Muzzle blast for someone standing next to the shooter has to be experienced. I shot these, never carried them. Too much like holding on to a firecracker on a dare. Or catching a fastball without a mitt. Terminal effect of 125gr .357mag is legendary. Penetration is not excessive.

*110gr JHP
Not too familiar with these, but hear while they wreck the target, penetration can be lacking. Never shot them. Try some, tell us about it.

*"Short BBL" or Reduced Recoil .357mag
Usually 125-135gr premium pills. They work. Still much recoil to manage.


.38SPl +P in Snubby Revolvers

*Heavy 158gr JHP +P
Generally, don't waste your time. HEAVY HP won't perform out of a snubby. Get LRN effects.

*FBI Load (+P 158gr LSWCHP) from big Ammo makers
Don't waste your time/money/recoil on them in a snubby. Not enough velocity out of a 2" bbl to justify the extra recoil of +P, as most likely the HP will not open reliably, given so many jello-warrior tests. Get LRN effects. OTOH, this is my chosen SD/HD load in my 4" bbl .357mags.

*Hotter FBI Load (+P 158gr LSWCHP) or 158gr JHP from boutique ammo makers
Such as Underwood or Buffalo Bore. They squeeze out enough velocity to open up the HP to possibly make them worth the recoil. If you can handle the recoil, this is good stuff.

*Lighter JHP +P (110-135gr)
Generally, the better premium selections of these work as advertised, especially the "Short BBL" and Treasury Load variants. Penetration can be spotty.

.38spl Standard Pressure from Snubbies


*Most any HP/JHP
Just not enough velocity to get any of the JHP to work. Maybe the old Nyclad was an exception. Generally, don;t bother as they will act like LRN, so seek increased effectiveness with more meplat.

*Lead Round Nose (158gr)
Called The Widowmaker for a reason. Mild recoil.

*Semi-wadcutter & NON-Target Wadcutter (148-158gr)
Good penetration, damage IAW meplat size. Mild recoil and muzzle blast. Some of the hotter choices are good woods carry rounds. SWC good for reloads for those that pack WC in their cylinder.

*Target Wadcutter (148gr)
.38spl snubby shooting on Easy Mode. After a workout with .38spl +P or .357mag, you will wonder at how easy it is to hit the target with these and quick follow-up shots. If you have an injured limb (in the fight or maybe a chronic condition) you will appreciate these. Penetration is good and damage commensurate to the meplat.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

ISCS Yoda, what caliber of ammo and grain were you shooting in your M638 and M642 that you disliked?

Standard .38 Special.

 

[S-W4EVER]

I was forced to use my issued .38 more than once during my career & it did its job. In my experience .357 loads are best reserved for K Frames.

... or L and N Frames if you shoot .357 very much.

 

[Biggfoot44]

At Roo_ster's point #2 , there's lots more potential scenarios .

In a particular situiation , the BUG could be more accessible to a free hand than primary .

In physical activity , primary could have fallen out of holster , your arm could have been bumped knocking primary from hand , and skittered away , or otherwise more expedient to draw BUG than retrieve/ search for primary . Primary malfunction or run dry , and more expedient to draw BUG . Danny Dirtball could have performed a snatch . or have your strongside arm occupied in struggling for retention/ control of primary .

All would call for BUG to substitute for a primary .

**********************

.357 110 gr has a reputation for overexpansion/ under penetration * from a 4 inch * , the lowered velocity from a snub will typically result in Less expansion , and porportionally more penetration .

 

[BabaBlueJay]

If you buy a 357 magnum you can always load it with 38 special, the opposite isn't true. Given that I'd opt for a 357 magnum. You can always start with 38 special and work your way to being comfortable enough to carry 357. Even if you never feel comfortable with 357 you could always just stick with 38/+p. The only reason I don't shoot 38 out of my 686 is residue rings form, but you can hone the chambers to deal with that and it's not anything that affects functionality so some don't care.