.38 Special or .357 for EDC
- Thread starter Rocketmedic40
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OP
Thanks; your answer is more enlightening for me. I’m a pretty big revolver fan and will likely stay that way.
bigggbbruce
Member
I'm the middle of the road. 38spl +p...
Doug M.
Member
I concur with Jordan's commentary. I can and have done my LEOSA qual with 145 grain Silvertip .357 in my M66. My performance wit 158 SWC at standard pressure/velocity is better; more accurate (maybe not a statistically valid difference) and FASTER. As has been noted by experts repeatedly, all handgun rounds suck for terminal ballistics on humans. A handgun is what one carried because you have no specific reason to expect to need a gun. If you do and can't make arrangements to be elsewhere, you need a rifle.
I do generally carry auto pistols because that was my academy and inservice training and I used them at private classes.
BTW: "Esthetics"? Oh dear lord. So far from a consideration that I have a hard time expressing my response without getting points from the Ape and his minions. If you think esthetics matter, your priorities are completely (messed) up. Apply Ermey's dictum from Full Metal Jacket and pay someone to administer slap therapy until the proctologist arrives to remove your head. Strike the whole concept from your mind.
I do generally carry auto pistols because that was my academy and inservice training and I used them at private classes.
BTW: "Esthetics"? Oh dear lord. So far from a consideration that I have a hard time expressing my response without getting points from the Ape and his minions. If you think esthetics matter, your priorities are completely (messed) up. Apply Ermey's dictum from Full Metal Jacket and pay someone to administer slap therapy until the proctologist arrives to remove your head. Strike the whole concept from your mind.
So something to ponder about these 5-6 shot revolvers vs. 15-17 shot auto loaders. Revolvers are harder to shoot well, especially DAO. Auto loaders are easier to shoot well and much faster to reload. OK, I'll agree with that, sort of but...
How come fifty years ago you had to qualify out to fifty yards with a revolver and reloading was part of the time allowed. Prone and standing barricade. At 25 yards it was 18 rounds kneeling barricade including weak hand, reloading included. Then 12, 12 and 6 at 15, 7 and 3 yards. Total 60 rounds.
Now with these modern autos, that easier to shoot gun requires, 6 rounds standing and 6 kneeling at 25. 6 & 6 at 15. 6 & 6 at 7 and 6 at 3 and 6 weak at 3 yards. 48 rounds. Reloading magazines not part of any timing.
My point being the old revolver courses were much harder than the auto course of today. In '85 I shot that 50 yard course with a model 10 and it was required to have 3 consecutive 95% or better to qualify for FI instructor. Not long after that the recruit course dropped to 25 yards.
Bottom line, you're only outgunned if you miss. Locker rooms and the city street are seeing a lot more misses.
How come fifty years ago you had to qualify out to fifty yards with a revolver and reloading was part of the time allowed. Prone and standing barricade. At 25 yards it was 18 rounds kneeling barricade including weak hand, reloading included. Then 12, 12 and 6 at 15, 7 and 3 yards. Total 60 rounds.
Now with these modern autos, that easier to shoot gun requires, 6 rounds standing and 6 kneeling at 25. 6 & 6 at 15. 6 & 6 at 7 and 6 at 3 and 6 weak at 3 yards. 48 rounds. Reloading magazines not part of any timing.
My point being the old revolver courses were much harder than the auto course of today. In '85 I shot that 50 yard course with a model 10 and it was required to have 3 consecutive 95% or better to qualify for FI instructor. Not long after that the recruit course dropped to 25 yards.
Bottom line, you're only outgunned if you miss. Locker rooms and the city street are seeing a lot more misses.
I have a four inch barreled Model 19-3, but it's not something that I carry, just hard for me to conceal a revolver of that size. I do have a 640-1 (2 1/8" barrel) that I can easily carry concealed. When I first started carrying it, almost 3 decades ago, I stoked it with 357 Magnum loads. I found the full power 125 grain JHP's to be really obnoxious when it came to muzzle blast, flash, recoil, and time between follow up shots, so I switched to the 110 grain JHP loads. They were not quite as obnoxious, but still a handful.
I finally settled on Speer's 135 grain JHP 38 Special +P Short Barrel load. I think these short barrel +P loads are pretty easy to control, do not have the blast or flash of full power magnum ammo and the follow up shot times are far better. So for me, it's either short barrel 38 Special +P or reduced power magnum ammo like Speer's 135 grain 357 Short Barrel JHP or Remington's 125 grain Golden Saber BJHP.
I finally settled on Speer's 135 grain JHP 38 Special +P Short Barrel load. I think these short barrel +P loads are pretty easy to control, do not have the blast or flash of full power magnum ammo and the follow up shot times are far better. So for me, it's either short barrel 38 Special +P or reduced power magnum ammo like Speer's 135 grain 357 Short Barrel JHP or Remington's 125 grain Golden Saber BJHP.
Charbroil1859
Member
In terms of J-frame revolvers, .357 has negligible ballistic performance compared to the recoil and noise its going to put out. The only exception to this is the SW 640 with its steel frame and 2.125" barrel; that allows for greater powder burn to better get a .357 round up to the speed necessary to have the superior ballistic performance that .357 has over the .38 in larger framed revolvers.
For me there are a few main factors to consider. Barrel length is one, and also when/where it might be used is another. For a snub nose revolver, I see no point in a .357 load. For home defense, all mine are loaded with .38+P. For outdoor use in my 3" or longer barrels, they all get one of my .357 hand loads.
OP
I think aesthetics matter a lot.
Why do cops pay more attention to urban youth than generic middle-aged adults with properly-worn pants?
Aesthetics.
Why do so many of today’s cops get treated like they’re occupying hostile soldiers before a word is said? Aesthetics.
Why do so many people scream about AR-pattern rifles, but ignore Mini-14s? Aesthetics.
Plus, I like (and carry) cool aesthetic things more than I do soulless black plastic.
Why do cops pay more attention to urban youth than generic middle-aged adults with properly-worn pants?
Aesthetics.
Why do so many of today’s cops get treated like they’re occupying hostile soldiers before a word is said? Aesthetics.
Why do so many people scream about AR-pattern rifles, but ignore Mini-14s? Aesthetics.
Plus, I like (and carry) cool aesthetic things more than I do soulless black plastic.
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I find recoil from .357M in a 3" L-frame or 4" K-frame manageable. I have both, but prefer the 686+ for the extra round and easier concealment. I avoid using .38 SPL in a .357 firearm, because it is hard to remove buildup in the cylinder.
The .357M velocity from these firearms is 1000+ fps, compared to about 800 fps for .38 SPL. The higher velocity produces more reliable expansion, hence controlled penetration for self-defense. Furthermore, .357M is more likely to produce hydrostatic shock, for near instant disabling effect.
The ballistics of 10mm is close to or exceeds that of .357M, and is a viable alternative in a in a 28 oz pistol compared to a 38 oz, 3" 686.
The .357M velocity from these firearms is 1000+ fps, compared to about 800 fps for .38 SPL. The higher velocity produces more reliable expansion, hence controlled penetration for self-defense. Furthermore, .357M is more likely to produce hydrostatic shock, for near instant disabling effect.
The ballistics of 10mm is close to or exceeds that of .357M, and is a viable alternative in a in a 28 oz pistol compared to a 38 oz, 3" 686.
There is no practical reason to switch. None.
The J frame has been carried for generations quite successfully. And even with the recent improvements of self defense ammo, the 38 still suffers from lack of penetration and /or expansion. That’s why many of us carry wad cutters. Yes, wad cutters are old technology. Yet wad cutters are still produced and carried by many. Wad cutters always exhibit excellent penetration.
Even if you can handle the increased recoil of the 357, it still doesn’t make sense. Especially when you get older.
As much as I love revolvers, I currently carry a hi cap 9MM. Just makes sense around here.
And for the record, handgun calibers are incapable of producing hydrostatic shock. Only rifle calibers can.
Just ask the world’s foremost expert on wound ballistics.
Dr. Gary Roberts.
Oh, I need to add my usual corrolary that if I'm ever forced to use a gun I'm not planning on pulling the trigger only once. Doesn't matter if it's a .22LR or a .44 Magnum.
magnum0710
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I'm a die hard 357 magnum guy, there are some 38 special loads that I do trust but if I'm only carrying 5 or 6 rounds I want the best performance I can get. A 38 J frame is good for pocket carry and a good back up gun but for an EDC revolver I want 357 myself.
Accuracy is very important, In my experience finding the right grips that fit your hand is key to controlling the 357. As for flash and blast that can be powder and load dependent. My last range trip I shot a cylinder of the Federal 38+p FBI load, it had way more flash than my full power 357 hand loads, 13.5 grains Accurate #9 with a 158 grain SWC. Newer defense rounds especially will have flash suppressed powders. Let's not forget having a 357 really opens up your options, even if you find full power magnums aren't the best idea there's always the lighter 357s like the Golden Saber and Gold Dot Short Barrel and the hot 38+p loads from Underwood and Buffalo Bore. These loads will have better performance than your run of the mill 38+p and at least get you into 9mm territory. Any time someone asks about a 38 revolver my advice is go 357, even if you only plan on carrying and shooting 38s it doubles your ammo options and you'd at least be able to use 357 in a pinch. I love the 38 special but as part of the whole 38/357 package, I don't own any 38 only revolvers anymore.
I think you're on the right track, a 3 inch K frame is a very good carry magnum. I don't have a K frame but I do have a few of the Ruger Six series revolvers which are the same size, they even fit the same holsters. IMO a 3 inch 6 shot medium frame 357 is the perfect carry magnum. Small enough to conceal yet big enough to control full power 357s, the 3 inch is no harder to carry than a snub and it has enough barrel to get the 357 up to speed. Here's a review I did of my Speed Six and explaining in detail why I think "combat magnums" are the perfect 357s for ccw. If you enjoy it like and subscribe please!
Accuracy is very important, In my experience finding the right grips that fit your hand is key to controlling the 357. As for flash and blast that can be powder and load dependent. My last range trip I shot a cylinder of the Federal 38+p FBI load, it had way more flash than my full power 357 hand loads, 13.5 grains Accurate #9 with a 158 grain SWC. Newer defense rounds especially will have flash suppressed powders. Let's not forget having a 357 really opens up your options, even if you find full power magnums aren't the best idea there's always the lighter 357s like the Golden Saber and Gold Dot Short Barrel and the hot 38+p loads from Underwood and Buffalo Bore. These loads will have better performance than your run of the mill 38+p and at least get you into 9mm territory. Any time someone asks about a 38 revolver my advice is go 357, even if you only plan on carrying and shooting 38s it doubles your ammo options and you'd at least be able to use 357 in a pinch. I love the 38 special but as part of the whole 38/357 package, I don't own any 38 only revolvers anymore.
I think you're on the right track, a 3 inch K frame is a very good carry magnum. I don't have a K frame but I do have a few of the Ruger Six series revolvers which are the same size, they even fit the same holsters. IMO a 3 inch 6 shot medium frame 357 is the perfect carry magnum. Small enough to conceal yet big enough to control full power 357s, the 3 inch is no harder to carry than a snub and it has enough barrel to get the 357 up to speed. Here's a review I did of my Speed Six and explaining in detail why I think "combat magnums" are the perfect 357s for ccw. If you enjoy it like and subscribe please!
CollinCountyLawman
Member
My off duty carry is a Ruger LCR. I run it with Remington 125gr 38 Special +P semi-jacketed hollow points even though it is chambered in .357. I had been carrying my 4" S&W Model 65 with 158gr .357 SJSP. Firing .357 through a K frame was not sitting right for me, so I bought an L frame S&W 581 no dash.
All that being said, I am now waiting on my two S&W Model 10-10s to come back from the gunsmith for my duty carry. I bought Federal 158gr 38 Special +P LSWC (the old "FBI Load") to run those pistols. My current opinion is that a S&W K frame with 38 Special +P is the way to go. I am going to carrying my 581 on high risk warrants, but outside of that my K frames are my daily go-to.
All that being said, I am now waiting on my two S&W Model 10-10s to come back from the gunsmith for my duty carry. I bought Federal 158gr 38 Special +P LSWC (the old "FBI Load") to run those pistols. My current opinion is that a S&W K frame with 38 Special +P is the way to go. I am going to carrying my 581 on high risk warrants, but outside of that my K frames are my daily go-to.
Squib_Load
Member
I have a steel frame, 6-shot, 2" 38 Special. No hollow points.
I don't think increasing the power works to make much of a difference. It's the depth of the hole that matters. Slow, heavy-for-caliber, non-HP bullets go DEEP.
So that puts me in the 'slow and heavy' crowd. I use 158 gr SWCs (chono'd at 710 fps) with very little recoil.
Over-Penetration is very unlikely with center-of-mass hits so I'm not concerned about them. But misses happen during the chaos.
The 4th rule of gun safety is to be sure of your target and what's behind it. Just like the cops, we have to avoid shooting when there are innocent people behind the bad guy. We'll have to move to the side to change the line up before shooting - not for fear of OP, but for fear of misses. When there are no people behind the bad guy I am not concerned about over-penetration.
Hollow points put the brakes on penetration. There's a lot more tissue to break and bleed beyond where a HP stops.
I don't think increasing the power works to make much of a difference. It's the depth of the hole that matters. Slow, heavy-for-caliber, non-HP bullets go DEEP.
So that puts me in the 'slow and heavy' crowd. I use 158 gr SWCs (chono'd at 710 fps) with very little recoil.
Over-Penetration is very unlikely with center-of-mass hits so I'm not concerned about them. But misses happen during the chaos.
The 4th rule of gun safety is to be sure of your target and what's behind it. Just like the cops, we have to avoid shooting when there are innocent people behind the bad guy. We'll have to move to the side to change the line up before shooting - not for fear of OP, but for fear of misses. When there are no people behind the bad guy I am not concerned about over-penetration.
Hollow points put the brakes on penetration. There's a lot more tissue to break and bleed beyond where a HP stops.
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So here's my two cents if anybody is interested. For camping, dog walking at night it's a 38/357 with the first two rounds snake shot (yeah we have snakes around here). Sometimes I carry an LCR, but it's just a tad bulky for pocket.
For around town, shopping, errands etc it's a Bersa 380cc. It's all metal, no poly, da/sa, slightly heavier than the LCR or even a J Frame empty, but all of them loaded are about the same. The d/a trigger is better than a wheelie (6.5#) and like most other people I shoot semis slightly better than a revolver. The weight of the all-steel offsets the increase in recoil from a blowback semi. Only problem with it is the really tiny sights are very tough to see with my old eyes; but I have trained to point shoot out to 5 yards and get all rounds on a silhoutte target, I am currently working on 7 yards for point shoot. I have 2 of those Bersas, one has a laser if I am in the mood. Got a bigger Bersa 380 if I am in the mood. I have never had any kind of a problem with any of the 6 Bersas I have owned. Note: if you want to try a really soft 380, try the Smith 380EZ. It's really light, uses a locking breech and recoils no more than a 22. I would carry it but it is slightly bulkier, and I like DA/SA better.
Traveling in a car, I have the Bersa, since it is in my pocket I am sitting I will have the Smith EZ or maybe a Beretta Cheetah 80x. More likely the Cheetah since it holds 10-13 depending on the mag.
Don't get me wrong----I love revolvers. To me most of the semis look alike; just big black boxy looking things (except for the 1911 9mm or the Browning clone); revolvers have CHARACTER. They just look bad ass. Even better are the Single-action revolvers. Love the looks.
And that's all I have to say for now. Hope I didn't bore (is that a play on words?) too many of you.
For around town, shopping, errands etc it's a Bersa 380cc. It's all metal, no poly, da/sa, slightly heavier than the LCR or even a J Frame empty, but all of them loaded are about the same. The d/a trigger is better than a wheelie (6.5#) and like most other people I shoot semis slightly better than a revolver. The weight of the all-steel offsets the increase in recoil from a blowback semi. Only problem with it is the really tiny sights are very tough to see with my old eyes; but I have trained to point shoot out to 5 yards and get all rounds on a silhoutte target, I am currently working on 7 yards for point shoot. I have 2 of those Bersas, one has a laser if I am in the mood. Got a bigger Bersa 380 if I am in the mood. I have never had any kind of a problem with any of the 6 Bersas I have owned. Note: if you want to try a really soft 380, try the Smith 380EZ. It's really light, uses a locking breech and recoils no more than a 22. I would carry it but it is slightly bulkier, and I like DA/SA better.
Traveling in a car, I have the Bersa, since it is in my pocket I am sitting I will have the Smith EZ or maybe a Beretta Cheetah 80x. More likely the Cheetah since it holds 10-13 depending on the mag.
Don't get me wrong----I love revolvers. To me most of the semis look alike; just big black boxy looking things (except for the 1911 9mm or the Browning clone); revolvers have CHARACTER. They just look bad ass. Even better are the Single-action revolvers. Love the looks.
And that's all I have to say for now. Hope I didn't bore (is that a play on words?) too many of you.
38 special has been and is still today adequate for your urban self defense needs.
I'll be 75 in September, and I carry a 640 Pro Series, and it has never had a .38 Special round in the cylinder. It's 110g .357 JHP ALWAYS. The recoil on 125g and 158g are a little too much for most anybody.
