That must have changed since the original statute. When I took the course (one of the first after the rules were published), it was 70% scoring.
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State live fire accuracy requirements
- Thread starter Fide686
- Start date
That must have changed since the original statute. When I took the course (one of the first after the rules were published), it was 70% scoring.
.38SuperMan
Member
Tennessee has an 8 hour class and live fire test. The live fire test is about the same as Texas. I got mine thirty some years ago and it’s easier now but wasn’t difficult back then. I think the cost is $100 for 8 years.
It’s hard to show causation and directionality for a few reasons:
- The states with the strictest gun control, have the most gun violence. But they also have high population densities and lots of social problems. They also tend to be pretty diverse with lots of what we will just call “issues” to stay away from all of the banned forum topics, which pretty well outline many of those issues.
- I lived in SD for the largest portion of my life and I ran the permit versus population numbers once and determined 1 in 7 adults in SD had concealed carry permits, although I suspect the number carrying daily was probably 1 in 14 to 1 in 20 adults range. Still, an armed society is a polite society and with 1 in 7 or even 1 in 20 chance of the person you are fixing to start something with is armed with a gun, you are likely to reconsider whether you really want to start anything at all. I saw much higher levels of tolerance and politeness in SD than I saw in DC, VA, NC or MN when I lived in those states.
It’s clear however, that gun control doesn’t address the things that underpin gun violence.
It’s also pretty clear that the vast majority of mass shootings and gun crime are not committed by gun people. The Vegas shooter was a exception but most gun criminal, like most police officers, just are not “gun people”. The pattern in most mass shootings seems to be a mail adjusted individual bent on suicide buying or otherwise obtaining a gun for the purpose of the shooting.
In contrast if you’ve been a gun owner for a few years and have not yet done something criminal or stupid with it, you’re a pretty good risk.
Several states have done studies on concealed handgun permit holders and the results have been consistent, finding concealed carry permit holders are 6 to 7 times less likely to commit a felony or misdemeanor than a police officer. Police officers in turn are about 3 times less likely to commit a felony or misdemeanor than the general public. That makes concealed carry permit holders about 20 times less likely to commit a crime than the average person.
Concealed carry permits, and the vetting involved are a good thing.
DR505
US Veteran
In Idaho there are three levels of CCW: Constitutional Carry for Idaho citizens, a limited CCW permit that is just fee based giving you privileges in some neighboring states, and the enhanced CCW that requires a live-fire shoot demonstrating proficiency (up to instructor to determine) with an 8 hour class. The enhanced CCW is good in something like 38 states and allows carry on University campuses and replaces NICS checks, good for 5 years.
The Idaho LEOSA shoot is done by our local Sheriff's Department and consists of a 15 round course, all from ready position, at 10 yards. No time limits, no reloading, and three stages of 5 rounds each. I could likely pass this in my sleep while handcuffed. There is no cost but you supply your own firearm and ammo. Your permit, good in all 50 states, says "handgun."
I took the Enhanced class for the firearms purchasing benefits, but our "instructor" was a fool. I won't go into detail of all his inanities, but his course of fire was 100 rounds at 10 yards into a 10" circle. However, it was not scored and was just to see how you handle the firearm. I kept mine in a group the size of a baseball, and the instructor was snarky about that. My online review was not kind to him.
The Idaho LEOSA shoot is done by our local Sheriff's Department and consists of a 15 round course, all from ready position, at 10 yards. No time limits, no reloading, and three stages of 5 rounds each. I could likely pass this in my sleep while handcuffed. There is no cost but you supply your own firearm and ammo. Your permit, good in all 50 states, says "handgun."
I took the Enhanced class for the firearms purchasing benefits, but our "instructor" was a fool. I won't go into detail of all his inanities, but his course of fire was 100 rounds at 10 yards into a 10" circle. However, it was not scored and was just to see how you handle the firearm. I kept mine in a group the size of a baseball, and the instructor was snarky about that. My online review was not kind to him.
I’m working on a trip to Boise in the near future, and to me, Idaho’s statute reads “any citizen of the United States,” which is how most permitless carry state’s statutes read. Please correct me if I’m wrong and point me to a different statute than the one I read . . .
I’ll speak to the states I have experience with:
South Dakota:
At the time I lived there SD charged $5 for a permit. It did not require a fingerprint background check. It took less than a week to get the permit from the local sheriffs office.
Since then they have added the enhanced permit amd gold card permit options to the regular permit.
The enhanced permit requires:
- a finger print background check
- academic training including;
South Dakota law relating to firearms and the use of force;
The basic concepts of the safe and responsible use of handguns;
Self-defense principles; and
-live fire “training” with at least 98 rounds fired by the student.
The gold card permit is the same as the regular permit but with a finger print back ground check.
As of July 1 2022, they have waived all the permit fees, except for county level administration fees, like finger print fees.
Virginia:
At the time I was there (2007) they required a finger print background check and academic training but no live fire training.
The state law required the permit application be processed within 45 days. Since I lived in Arlington county which is pretty anti gun, after nearly six months of calling and asking about it, I went down and demanded it. They got it out of a file drawer in less than a minute, and I gathered they just elected to deny the permits were processed until people showed up or lawyered up.
North Carolina:
NC require 8 hours of academic training, 4 hours of which is Gun safety and 4 hours of which is in the laws pertaining to the use of lethal force in self defense. They also require a finger print background check, and a release to check the two state hospitals for mental health treatment records.
They also require live fire “qualification”. The courses are approved by the state and the standards for the live fire qualification are left to the discretion of the person seeking course approval, although it does need to be approved. Most seem to use one of the various law enforcement qualification courses with 40 or 50 pounds and require something on the order of 80% of the rounds to hit a B-27 target.
This was done with a Kimber Ultra Carry in .45 ACP. The nines we the result of pushing a little too much in some double taps and the 8 is just embarrassing. Most of the people qualifying however had rounds scattered all over the target. I don’t recall anyone not qualifying so it’s still a low bar.
Minnesota
MN also required a finger print background check, a one day academic course and live fire “qualification”.
The qualification was more of a pass/fail “can you shoot a gun safely and hit a B-27 sized target at 5 yards” exercise. The instructor worked with the students 1 on 1 and as watched him coach students until they could reliably hit the target.
When he got to me he noted I was shooting and K frame revolver and asked me to fire six rounds at the target. I had my 3” Model 66 with my .357 Mag self defense load and put all six shots in a 1.5” group in the x ring of a B-27 target at five yards rapid fire.
He said “I noticed you did that double action, that’s good”. He asked me if I was shooting .357 Mag and I replied I was. He said “of course” followed by “you passed” and moving on to the next student. So that was it - six rounds.
South Dakota:
At the time I lived there SD charged $5 for a permit. It did not require a fingerprint background check. It took less than a week to get the permit from the local sheriffs office.
Since then they have added the enhanced permit amd gold card permit options to the regular permit.
The enhanced permit requires:
- a finger print background check
- academic training including;
South Dakota law relating to firearms and the use of force;
The basic concepts of the safe and responsible use of handguns;
Self-defense principles; and
-live fire “training” with at least 98 rounds fired by the student.
The gold card permit is the same as the regular permit but with a finger print back ground check.
As of July 1 2022, they have waived all the permit fees, except for county level administration fees, like finger print fees.
Virginia:
At the time I was there (2007) they required a finger print background check and academic training but no live fire training.
The state law required the permit application be processed within 45 days. Since I lived in Arlington county which is pretty anti gun, after nearly six months of calling and asking about it, I went down and demanded it. They got it out of a file drawer in less than a minute, and I gathered they just elected to deny the permits were processed until people showed up or lawyered up.
North Carolina:
NC require 8 hours of academic training, 4 hours of which is Gun safety and 4 hours of which is in the laws pertaining to the use of lethal force in self defense. They also require a finger print background check, and a release to check the two state hospitals for mental health treatment records.
They also require live fire “qualification”. The courses are approved by the state and the standards for the live fire qualification are left to the discretion of the person seeking course approval, although it does need to be approved. Most seem to use one of the various law enforcement qualification courses with 40 or 50 pounds and require something on the order of 80% of the rounds to hit a B-27 target.
This was done with a Kimber Ultra Carry in .45 ACP. The nines we the result of pushing a little too much in some double taps and the 8 is just embarrassing. Most of the people qualifying however had rounds scattered all over the target. I don’t recall anyone not qualifying so it’s still a low bar.
Minnesota
MN also required a finger print background check, a one day academic course and live fire “qualification”.
The qualification was more of a pass/fail “can you shoot a gun safely and hit a B-27 sized target at 5 yards” exercise. The instructor worked with the students 1 on 1 and as watched him coach students until they could reliably hit the target.
When he got to me he noted I was shooting and K frame revolver and asked me to fire six rounds at the target. I had my 3” Model 66 with my .357 Mag self defense load and put all six shots in a 1.5” group in the x ring of a B-27 target at five yards rapid fire.
He said “I noticed you did that double action, that’s good”. He asked me if I was shooting .357 Mag and I replied I was. He said “of course” followed by “you passed” and moving on to the next student. So that was it - six rounds.
Visco
Member
Louisiana is close to this. I think you shoot 50 from 3 to 7 yards. Just have to keep all your rounds on the paper. If there's a big hole in the middle you'e good.
Birdhunter6
Member
Thanks for clarification ispcapt.
I incorrectly identified the BIG silhouette. I had no idea you could pull 7 out of the black and pass! That's just scary.
I originally shot it with a 3" 36-1. For my requal last year I used my 640P. Both times I choked and pulled a single round out into the 9 ring.
I incorrectly identified the BIG silhouette. I had no idea you could pull 7 out of the black and pass! That's just scary.
I originally shot it with a 3" 36-1. For my requal last year I used my 640P. Both times I choked and pulled a single round out into the 9 ring.
DR505
US Veteran
The Attorney General's Web Site has the following language:
AND:
The statute has the following language:
Then the State of Idaho website has the following quotation:
The way it was explained to me by the CCW attorney was that Idaho residents have Constitutional Carry, but if you are from another State you must have a CCW that Idaho recognizes. The language from the AG website seems to indicate that ANYONE can CC here, but I think that is just a poorly framed statement, and looks to be taken from the perspective of an Idaho citizen asking the question. The second quote I pulled from the AG website states that you must carry your recognized CCW from another state while carrying concealed. If it was constitutional carry for any US Citizen, this would have been answered differently.
The actual statute and the State of Idaho web sites indicate Constitutional Carry is for residents only. However, I was Law Enforcement, not an attorney, so I can just pass along what I have been told.
FWIW - Additionally, the Concealed Carry Law smartphone application states that Idaho is constitutional carry state for residents only.
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Then can you explain this from Idaho’s website:
Gun & Weapon Law | The Official Website of the State of Idaho
A person does not have to have a concealed weapons license to carry or be in possession of a deadly weapon or firearm in the following circumstances:
Any deadly weapon located in plain view;
Any lawfully possessed shotgun or rifle;
Any deadly weapon concealed in a motor vehicle;
A firearm that is not loaded and is secured in a case;
A firearm that is disassembled or permanently altered such that it is not readily operable; and
Any deadly weapon concealed by a person who is:
Over eighteen (18) years of age;
A citizen of the United States or a current member of the armed forces of the United States; and
Is not disqualified from being issued a license under Idaho Code § 18-3302(11)(b) –.
Gun & Weapon Law | The Official Website of the State of Idaho
It always has been and is still 70% scoring. 30 shots fired, 21 needed to qualify. That was set in the ad rules from the beginning. If the person who did your class was scoring the rings then he was not doing it by the statute. And that would not be unusual either. There were some really fast and loose instructors who had their certs revoked. No doubt there are still some.
Pretty much scary. I've said from the beginning that IL's CCW qualification shoot is not a qualification shoot. It's really nothing more than a weapon function check. The 20 rds at the 5 yd and 7 yd should be a gimme if anyone is paying attention to what they're doing. Then at 10 yds they only have to hit the target once in 10 rds. That should be a gimme too but surprising how many people will fail. And that is really really scary.
Muss, you know as well as I do that the smart move is to contact the state AG’s office for clarification if there is any ambiguity involved, and their is given the requirement that persons with out of state permits must keep the permit with them while conceal carrying.
You don’t want to rely on the AG’s statement on the website as a defense and find out it was in error or out of context any more than I would.
So..what you are doing here is just arguing for the sake of arguing.
MSgt G
US Veteran
Any States mandating a speech class before exercising your 1st Amendment rights? Just wondering ��.
No, what I'm doing is trying to find out why the statute is ambiguous. As you well and undoubtedly know, given your vast experience in these matters, contacting the state AG's office is as reliable as the person answering the inquiry, who won't be available to testify at the trial. But your ad hominem interjection is duly noted. . .
Muss, you know as well as I do that the smart move is to contact the state AG’s office for clarification if there is any ambiguity involved, and their is given the requirement that persons with out of state permits must keep the permit with them while conceal carrying.
You don’t want to rely on the AG’s statement on the website as a defense and find out it was in error or out of context any more than I would.
So..what you are doing here is just arguing for the sake of arguing.
DR505
US Veteran
In our Enhanced CCW class the lawyer said Constitutional Carry was for Idaho residents only (6 months minimum residency requirement)...and Idaho residents have to meet that list of requirements you pulled from the AG website about age, US Citizen, etc.. FWIW the Concealed Carry Laws website/app states that constitutional carry is for Residents Only.
If Constitutional Carry was legal for out-of-staters, the AG website would not mention that they MUST CARRY THEIR CCW ISSUED BY THEIR HOME STATE AT ALL TIMES.
The section you quoted is referring to IDAHO RESIDENTS as the statute clearly states at the beginning and I quoted above.
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DR505
US Veteran
I did find the following at the NRA site, so I understand the confusion. I think the crux is wether or not you are in a city, township, etc.:
But I think you are correct that there is conflicting guidance on the State of Idaho site and the AG site.
If you want, I can call the AG's office on Monday and ask...let me know.
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I said “contact”. I didn’t think I needed to specify “in writing” so that you get a written response that you can use in your defense. Generally speaking when the law is ambiguous, but you have in fact formally asked and been formally notified in writing by the AG’s office that what you plan to do is legal, it’s still a pretty solid defense if it happens to be wrong. It doesn’t mean some overly zealous officer won’t arrest you, but it does make it a lot less likely you’ll be prosecuted.
——-
In my past experience in interpreting and enforcing laws we often looked at the red line versions of bills that were enacted to determine precisely what was changed when a law was amended, and when available committee notes to determine the actual legislative intent.
In this case look at the red line version of the bill under (4)(f)(ii):
“(3) No person shall carry concealed weapons on or about his person without a license to carry concealed weapons, except:…
…(4) Subsection (3) of this section shall not apply to restrict or prohibit the carrying or possession of:…
…(f) Any deadly weapon concealed by a person who is:..
…(ii) A resident citizen of Idaho the United States or a current member of the armed forces of the United States;”
It won’t show in the copy/pasted text, but you will see the strike through text in the linked document that replaced “resident of Idaho” with “Citizen of the United States”.
https://legislature.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/sessioninfo/2020/legislation/H0516.pdf
But…I’d still confirm it with the AG’s office in writing as a bill being signed into law by the governor doesn’t always mean the law wasn’t challenged, stayed by a court, or otherwise interpreted differently by a cognizant agency and/or AG’s office.
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The issue in this amended law is that they added exceptions to subsection (3) in subsection (4) that includes the constitutional carry provision under (4](f):
“(f) Any deadly weapon concealed by a person who is:
(i) Over eighteen (18) years of age;
(ii) A resident citizen of Idaho the United States or a current
member of the armed forces of the United States; and
(iii) Is not disqualified from being issued a license under paraagraphs (b) through
of subsection (11) of this section.”The legislature for what ever reasons also did not remove the existing exception language under (5)(g)
“(5) The requirement to secure a license to carry concealed weapons under this section shall not apply to the following persons:…
…(g) Any person who has physical possession of his valid license or permit authorizing him to carry concealed weapons from another state.”
Clearly the replacement of the “resident of Idaho” language with “citizen of the United States” in (4)(f) means the language at (5)(g) is superfluous, but they didn’t strike it, so it creates some confusion, but any ambiguity in interpretation normally won’t go against a defendant in a matter with a criminal penalty under the concept of the Rule of Lenity.
Still, attorneys are an overly cautious bunch and they will give you the most risk averse and most conservative “keep you out of trouble” interpretation when faced with ambiguity - which just adds confusion.
——
But getting a written opinion from the AG is helpful and covers your legal bases.
In many states the AG has addressed the same question before and there is often an AG opinion letter that can be provided either on the website or via a w rotten copy.
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OKLAHOMA:
CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY.
OKLAHOMA RECOGNZES ALL STATE-ISSUED CARRY LICENSES.
If you want an OK carry license (for carry in other states), residents and PCS military take a one-day course with live fire at 3 and 5 yards, without violating range safety rules. Targets are not scored. Use any caliber.
CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY.
OKLAHOMA RECOGNZES ALL STATE-ISSUED CARRY LICENSES.
If you want an OK carry license (for carry in other states), residents and PCS military take a one-day course with live fire at 3 and 5 yards, without violating range safety rules. Targets are not scored. Use any caliber.
Mainsail
Member
There are a lot of mainstream media outlets (1st Amendment) that operate out of New York; is there any requirement for them to pass a test for accuracy?
From NEW YORK STATE RIFLE & PISTOL ASSN., INC. v. BRUEN
The constitutional right to bear arms in public for self-defense is not “a second-class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees.” McDonald, 561 U. S., at 780 (plurality opinion). The exercise of other constitutional rights does not require individuals to demonstrate to government officers some special need. The Second Amendment right to carry arms in public for self- defense is no different.
More on topic, Washington has no testing requirements.
From NEW YORK STATE RIFLE & PISTOL ASSN., INC. v. BRUEN
The constitutional right to bear arms in public for self-defense is not “a second-class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees.” McDonald, 561 U. S., at 780 (plurality opinion). The exercise of other constitutional rights does not require individuals to demonstrate to government officers some special need. The Second Amendment right to carry arms in public for self- defense is no different.
More on topic, Washington has no testing requirements.
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