Hi guys,
I was just wondering if anyone could recommend a good ammo for an older M38 J frame?. I bought 100rds of wadcutters from Lost River Ammo co.
Can these revolvers shoot standard ammo?

They shoot standard pressure ammo just fine. They’ll also tolerate .38+P for carry use, although S&W won’t recommend it.

Federal 130gr HST is a good choice for a short barrel standard pressure .38 Special. It will reliably expand and give you 12-13” penetration.

Hornady 110gr Critical defense also expands reliably, although not quite as much, but will give 13-14” penetration.

My recommendation as well. I wouldn't trust my life to slow moving, non-expanding, wadcutters.

There seems to be a bit of disagreement on this subject:

Wadcutters For Snubbies

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Come and take it!!

Just FYI: an older times gun writer named Walt Rauch took one of the older none +P rated J frames and had every part disassembled, examined and measured. He then proceeded to pound that old J frame with a multitude of +P rounds by various makers. After hundreds of +P rounds that gun was once again disassembled, examined and measured. Guess what NO accelerated wear or stretching etc... was found.

I do shoot +p in all my .38 Special guns. I do not shoot a lot of it because it is not fun for me to do so.

Added:
Walt Rauch received a BS degree from Carnegie Tech and completed service as a Special Agent in U.S. Army Intelligence. Rauch was a U.S. Secret Service Special Agent and a Philadelphia, Pa., Warrant Unit Investigator. He now operates a consulting company for defense-weapon and tactical training. Rauch & Company services include expert witness testimony on firearms use and tactics.
Rauch is also a writer and lecturer in the firearms field. He’s published in national and international publications including InterMedia’s Handguns, several Harris Publications specialty magazines, Police and Security News and Cibles (France). He is the author of a book on self-defense, Real-World Survival! What Has Worked For Me, as well as Practically Speaking, a comprehensive guide to IDPA defensive pistol shooting.

Just an FYI the Model 38 was $115 in 1976. (Model 36 was $110)

Being a cop the J Frames were Back Up Guns (BUG) or secondary revolvers. So they were only shot annually to stay familiar with.

I carry the Speer 135 gr. Gold Dot Short Barrel .38 SPL ammo in my S&W model 60, but it is all stainless steel. My Charter Arms (alloy frame) has Winchester 158 gr. SWCHP +P loaded in it. Either round would get the job done, if I do my part. I wouldn't shoot a regular diet of either one of those rounds in either of my revolvers, although the model 60 should hold up to a lot of hot rounds. The wadcutters are great for practice and a steady diet out of your gun.

Old habits die hard, usually not until their proponents get old and die.

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To be fair the real world shoot data from Roberts, Fackler, Marshall and Sanow, etc is for the most part decent data within its limitations. People like to denigrate it in preference to gel testing, but they conveniently forget the FBI’s gel testing standards as eventually adopted were based on real world shoot data indicating what worked. They then took those known to be effective in the real world loads and developed some general parameters and eventual standards based on how those good performing loads in the field performed in 10% ballistic gel.

The idea was to develop standards that would help predict in a repeatable, measurable way how a new load could be expected to perform in the field, to improve the odds of a new load selected for service actually performing well, without having to use it for years in the field to discover iif was a winner or a dud in real world use.

Good gel test results still are not a guarantee of good field results as a number of other factors can come into play, but it increases the odds of a successful load.

Conversely, some loads that performed quite well in the field didn’t meet the FBI’s gel testing standards. For example the old Federal Hydra-Shok in .38 Special was a very effective load based on field data but just doesn’t expand much at all at even 4” .38 Special or .38 +P velocities in 10% ballistic gel. That doesn’t make it any less effective based on it’s record in all that real world shoot data.

The problem of source with real world data is the large number of variable that cannot be controlled other than using large data sets that usually level out all the variables across the rounds being tested. But it’s not guaranteed. For example, .38 revolvers often different in barrel length based on whether they were used by uniformed officers (4” or even 6”) versus detectives who were more likely to use 1 7/8” to 2 1/8” revolvers with lower velocities. In some cases older, more experienced officers may have kept them long after younger officers switched to newer semi auto firearms in different calibers. That has impacts not only on officer experience but also the types of shoots they might be involved in.

All of that can have an impact on results. For example a snub nose .38 has historically, and properly, been regarded as an experts gun that requires a high level of marksman ship to be effective at greater than belly gun range, particularly when firing what is now regarded as a marginal cartridge in its standard pressure loading. The point here being that an old hand with excellent marksman ship skills who was cool under fire and made solid center of mass hits, was likely to get effective stops regardless of what he was shooting, and standard pressure .38 special 147 gr wadcutters or the 158 gr LSWCHPs were likely to be just as effective as anything else being shot.

But that doesn’t mean a standard pressure 147 gr wad cutter fired out of a 2” J frame is going to be the best bet for someone who isn’t very well practiced and skilled with a J frame.

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That real world data also shows that once you get to .357 Magnum and .45 ACP levels of performance nothing bigger performs any better. They all top out with similar percentages.

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Personally, I like revolvers and used to carry a J frame in any ankle holster as a non authorized backup as the chief of police was about as anti gun as it got at the time. He allowed six standard pressure .38s in the revolver and just six more in a dump pouch, with speed loaders and speed strips specifically prohibited (and this was in the mid 1980s). In response pretty much every one carried a J-frame as backup. We’d rather be fired than dead if we ever had the need to use it.

But I also shoot snub nose revolvers on a regular basis and shoot them at targets out to 15 yards. It’s a myth to say a snub nose revolver is not accurate, it just requires a better shooter with greater mastery of the basics to shoot them accurately at speed.

For the guys who can’t hit a bull in the butt with a base fiddle at 5 yards with a 17 round 5” service pistol, a snub nose would be a very poor choice.

Give BB57 an apple!
Finally someone who understands how gel testing came to be.

How many times have we had posts say gel testing is so flawed...What if you shoot a person who is not 12 to 18 inches thick. Or they say the human body is not made of gel...etc...etc...

Thank you for posting.

I agree, in fact I bought 350 rounds of Federal 129 gr. Hydra-Shok LE for my M340PD & M442-2 last month.

A good example is people who leave two rounds out of the magazine because it causes jams. "A relative was nearly killed in Vietnam!" I over heard that just the other day on the Range.

Actually from my Police Training what I saw was some people are significantly better at one platform over another. Some people are great with all handgun platforms and others do rather poorly with any firearm platform because they have no aptitude.

Choice of:

Federal 130gr HST Micro

Speer Gold Dots

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

And if you believe Massage Aboob, a S&W Model 38 frame was stretched beyond function with 4 boxes of .38 Special +P.

In my experience, they are both full of cow pie.

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Retired LE Instructor/Armorer

Probably would have been best to just stop typing at that point.

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Retired LE Instructor/Armorer

The S&W Model 38 is part of the Airweight series, so aluminum alloy frame. That makes them lighter and more comfortable to carry, especially in a pocket, but the aluminum frame will not withstand use and abuse like a steel frame. The aluminum frame S&W J-frames are also known for developing a crack in the frame's crane recess, directly beneath the barrel. Personally, I would stick with standard pressure ammo in an aluminum J-frame revolver and avoid the hotter loaded, standard pressure ammo from boutique companies like Buffalo Bore and Underwood.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

They are the folks people love to hate.

So, uh, why do you suppose S&W won't recommend the use of the +P stuff----think now!

Could it possibly be because they want you to buy a new one---one "Rated for +P"?

Well the new ones "Rated for +P" are better aren't they? Better than what---and when?

Back in the good old days (1925 because I have data from then), a regular, everyday 158 grain bullet came out of the muzzle at 858 fps.

Nowadays' version comes out at 755 fps. I don't know the when nor the why of the download, but that's what it is.

Enter +P. Those come out at 890 fps---a fairly significant improvement over 755; but essentially the same as it was back when.

So who's kidding who with this "Rated for +P" business? Well that would be the folks who want to sell them, right?!!

Ralph Tremaine

My carry gun is a 442 no lock. I qualify once a year using 148gr. mid range wads. When I want to play bad cop I use a #36 with hotter loads just to hear the bang and see the flash.

Most of my real practice is with a 317 which keeps my trigger finger in shape. The .22 is because I'm cheap, living on a civil service pension and all. The days of free bullets is many years long gone.

To further sullie the waters, I knew several Coroners who carried 38 S&W Special revolvers (two J frame, 1 K frame). All three used wadcutter ammunition based on what they saw on their tables.

Personally, I like the way the wadcutter penetrates.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Try several loads and choose the one that you (and the revolver) shoot best.

With 38 special self defense loads, there is never a guarantee that the bullet will expand. Doesn’t matter how slow or fast the bullet is pushed.

Since shot placement and penetration are most important, wadcutters make sense.

FMJ and clogged hollow points simply just pokes a hole in people. Wadcutters penetrate very well and cut their way through causing more damage.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

I use either a 148 gr DEWC (3.3 grs W231) or a 158 gr cast SWC (4.0 grs SWC) in my Airweight. If I was limited to factory ammunition, I would use Remington’s 158 gr SWC or their 148 gr WC.

....TODAY'S +P. Unless you buy boutique stuff, mainstream +P loads are barely discernable from standard.

Many years ago I was at the range and a couple guys were leaving and I heard them remark, "He's shooting +Ps now." The difference was marked. I don't doubt that REAL +P could wreck a gun not rated for it. How quickly, I don't know.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

^^^THIS RIGHT HERE^^^^

All the rest is speculation and trying to read tea leaves in the jello-tests.

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Life of the party until 8:00PM

Awesome job of citing your source and his qualifying credentials. Obviously, we live in a society that cares less for or lacks the capacity for empirical research!
BRAVO!!!

Federal 130 gr. HST Micro

Remington 125nGolden Saber

Speer Gold Dots if you can get them

Winchester 130 gr Train and Defend

Hornady 90 gr. Critical Defense Lite

Your choices go up a LOT if you use +P for carry (only).

125 gr Remington Golden Saber +P

Federal Hydra Shok 125 gr +P

Speer 135 gr Gold Dot Short Barrel +P if you can find it.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

In the end, you do what you want. It's only your life that's on the line. Also remember that it's not about killing power, it's about STOPPING someone who is endangering your life. It does you no good to have been killed by someone who continues on after being shot, just to die later.

I carry Double Tap 148-gr WC in my 37-1 Airweight.

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Some Might Say.

The OP hasn't been back since Oct 15.
He asked basically the same thing a week earlier and recieved about the same answer as given here in post #2. to wit - the M38 was intended for any standard ammo, not just wadcutters.

What I would add to that is:

a. Not all wadcutters cartridges are the same.
b. Regardless of cartridge choice, once you can make reasonably consistant groups on the target, pick a cartridge that hits close to point of aim.

only hits count!!