I have found that many autos aren't all that safe with a round in the chamber, but are still fine carry and defense guns. I was going to pose this challenge in the ".25 Auto" thread, but it really deserves its own. I challenge all to comment about the loss of speed from carrying "Condition One" (cocked & locked), and starting with an empty chamber and cocking the slide "on the way up". As far as getting the first round off at close quarters, this method (sometimes called the Israeli technique), works quite well for me, and the faultless safety it provides against accidental discharge (or someone snatching my weapon) sacrifice very little time in a practiced response on the draw. Your experiences or thoughts?

I have found that many autos aren't all that safe with a round in the chamber, but are still fine carry and defense guns. I was going to pose this challenge in the ".25 Auto" thread, but it really deserves its own. I challenge all to comment about the loss of speed from carrying "Condition One" (cocked & locked), and starting with an empty chamber and cocking the slide "on the way up". As far as getting the first round off at close quarters, this method (sometimes called the Israeli technique), works quite well for me, and the faultless safety it provides against accidental discharge (or someone snatching my weapon) sacrifice very little time in a practiced response on the draw. Your experiences or thoughts?

My two main concerns are I need two good hands; and some autos with full length guide rods and Novak type sights are hard to cycle when using the corner of a desk/ wall/ my belt or etc...

And I'm not sure any .25 auto is worth having when there are so many good knives around.

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July 4, 1776 not Jan 30, 1909

Exactly what autos have you found unsafe and what is your criteria for passing that judgement? Most all semiautos that I am aware of are and were designed to be carried with a round in the chamber.

As far as what the difference in speed is between your two conditions just try yours with one hand.

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BCCI Life Member #2068

The only guns that should be carried on an empty chamber are:

*Percussion revolvers.
*Single action revolvers with no transfer bar and have a hammer mounted firing pin.

Well made autos shouldn't have to be carried in this manner. If they have to, they aren't well made and should be disposed of or repaired.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

Someone attacks you in close quarters, with condition 1 you use your free hand to try and keep the attacker at arms length while you draw and wipe the safety with your other hand.
If you are in condition 3... israeli carry, you are drawing a small, short, and light club.

Condition 1 for me.


Jim

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Big bullets leave big holes

If you are carrying a pistol because you feel that you may need to actually use it someday why on earth would you carry it with an empty chamber? Besides, carrying a pistol with a round in the chamber is no different than carrying a revolver with a fully loaded cylinder.

IMO, if you NEED a gun you need it ready NOW and having to take the time to cycle the action to ready your weapon makes no sense. Not to mention, if I have the element of surprise I want to be able to fire my weapon without giving away my presence or position by having to load it first, never mind the possibility of being injured and unable to cycle it.

Remember 3 to 5 - the average gun fight is 3 to 5 rounds in 3 to 5 seconds at 3 to 5 feet. Can you draw your pistol, cycle the action, and put 3 rounds on target in 3 seconds? I'm betting not. However, I KNOW I can draw my gun and put at least 5 rds center mass in 3 seconds at 5 feet.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

Sounds like a great way to get killed. The reason the Israelis used that technique was that they expected to be the ones initiating contact and not responding to a threat like a private citizen or an off duty cop. There is a sizable chance that a person on defense is behind the curve time wise because all predators (as well as Mossad agents ) rely on stealth, distance and timing to launch an attack, and will only do so when all three are in place. You likely will need every split second you have if attacked and having two hands available aren't a given. If you really aren't comfortable with modern autos, which are quite safe, then you might be better served by using revolvers exclusively.

There was a show on the history of transportation, I think it was, on the History Channel or A&E. They did a segment in Detroit about cops on bikes. At one point, they showed a staged sequence of some cops riding up to the "dope house" on bikes, jumping off the bikes and going into the dope house. When one guy jumped off his bike, he pulled his Glock 21 and "racked one into the chamber". I laughed my *** off. I hope the producers told him to do this for the drama as opposed to him doing it on his own for the drama. If he was the former, he should have refused because he certainly wasn't trained that way.

If you attacker is so close that you don't have time to draw and rack a slide, you probably don't have time left for any type of gun. By then, you must have a fixed blade knife, kuboton, slap, metal flashlight or other hand held instrument at the ready and instantly deployable, or you will be overtaken in what amounts to an unarmed state. Once you stun your attacker with any of these means, you will then be able to pull your semi automatic pistol and rack the slide. You hope.

Inside a certain distance, one has a higher probability of immediately stopping an attacker with any of the instruments described above, especially a knife. So a gun can be in a secondary role to begin with once the distance closes.

I carry with chamber empty.
My reason:
I am new to being a handgun owner and am not yet comfortable enough with my gun to carry loaded (clip is full though). The sigma has no saftey. I agree with everyone about the "uselessness" of carrying without 1 in the chamber.
I am sure as i get more comfortable and confident with it i will... or even better upgrade to an M&P or other semi-auto that has actual saftey so then i would.

Im sure many of you have comments on my preference but hey it is just that... my preference.

None of my carried semi-autos have safeties (KelTec32, KelTecP3AT, Walter PPS 9mm, M&P 9). I always carry with a round in the chamber.

You just have to practice drawing without putting your finger on the trigger until the gun is clear and on target. That's faster than trying to rack a round on the way up.

Just curious, Barb, who won the popularity contest with you, the M&P9 or the Walther PPS?

I carry almost exclusively IWB. The PPS is so much easier to carry because it's slim and small. The M&P9 is fullsized and while I'll bring it when circumstances dictate, I much prefer the PPS for comfort.

I will not carry an auto that doesn't have a long reasonably heavy DA only trigger, nor will I tolerate a safety. The only auto I use is a P3AT. I prefer the simplicity, reliability, safety and trigger of a DA revolver. One of my co workers has a S&W auto (I forget which model) that has a long but very light trigger. That gun gives me the creeps. A gun doesn't just have to shoot well, it has to be one that can be lived with year in and year out safely. I think a lot of people like those uberlight triggers because they help them make up for a lack of shooting skill, and they are easier to shoot well, I just think they pose too great a risk of an ND if something like a shirt tail got inside the trigger guard while reholstering. YMMV.

Carrying with an empty chamber is a horrible idea. Who is going to be cool enough under pressure to rack the slide and chamber a round without fumbling? What if the round doesn't chamber properly? You can't call time out for technical difficulties. In a pressure situation like that, the simpler the better. I carry an M&P. No safety to fumble, round in the chamber. Operates just like a revolver, point and pull the trigger. Anything else, IMHO, is looking for trouble. Failure is not an option.

I have no idea where you got this idea from but even 40 Years ago the Israeli's I had dealings with all carried in Condition 1 and as they aren't a stupid people I doubt they would have 'changed' this particular "policy" so I'd call this "Gun Rag BS" and nothing but.

I do know that 40 Years ago it was US Military Policy to carry with an empty chamber and I have noted that within the last couple of years that it appears that this "Policy" hasn't changed, at least on US soil. When I was required to go armed while on Duty and in Uniform I did carry my sidearm on my belt in that condition because I knew I might be checked but by that time I had already begun "carry concealed" even while in Uniform and that sidearm was 'cocked and locked' and this idea of carrying an empty gun might have had something to do with my not reenlisting. I walked too many Guard Mounts with empty firearms. Of course, once I became my own boss and during the 13 months in RVN I NEVER "carried" without being 'cocked and locked' - regulations or not - neither did any of the 'people' who worked for me.

So, if you want to call this 'technique' by a particular name you SHOULD call it the "the Stupid US Military Regulation Technique"!!!

If you choose to carry an automatic then get used to it enough before you even begin carrying it; to carry it properly and that is "Cocked & Locked".

I've been carrying for over 40 Years and have been "teaching" professional shooting, hunter education, personal defense classes etc. for over 30 and I can tell you more "Accidents" occur during the 'Loading and/or un-Loading' process than at any other time. And, this is totally true especially for the Professionals in both the LE and the Military World.

Can open

Worms everywhere!

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All Rights Reserved

I would never choose to go for my knife before my gun. I can draw and fire as fast or faster than I can deploy my knife, ASP, OC spray, or anything else. Like I said, when it's time for a gun it's time for a gun that's ready to shoot and nothing else will do.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

The most important safety you have, regardless of how the gun is equipped, is the one between your ears. Your gun won't fire unless you pull the trigger, period, keep your finger off of it until it's time to shoot and you have nothing to worry about.
Also - and I mean no offense, I'm just being realistic - if you are not comfortable and confident enough with the weapon to carry it with a round in the chamber then you probably aren't going to have the presence of mind to be able to draw and load it when the ***** hits the fan. If you are afraid of carrying it loaded the way it was designed to be carried then chances are that you probably shouldn't bother until you are over your fears.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

Some Israeli units absolutely do carry with an empty chamber. I know because they've trained with some of our operators at Quantico and my boss had an interesting discussion about it with them.

This wasn't the normal police routine, but military and other government agencies that carried this way.

Actually, it should be called the " Stupid US Army and Navy/Marine Corps" method.

The USAF security police (now security forces) always carry handguns (M9) with a round in the chamber and the decocker/safety off. I carried one that way for six years. They do carry rifles with an empty chamber, but that's simply because the M16/M4 safety can easily get knocked off and there is no firing pin spring to overcome or block to keep it from discharging from a hard fall etc.

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USPSA TY23298

That's intersting to know. Back when I was an SP (early 80's) we still had .38's so it was never an issue with sidearms. Our M-16's were carried with a loaded mag, empty chamber, guess that hasn't changed in 25+ years.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

That might be what you think, but you do say "probably don't have time" so at least sometimes you WILL have time to draw the weapon and employ it.

I have worked with a fair number of people who have had to use lethal force with a handgun and in only one of those cases was the bad guy any reasonable distance away (15-20yds). All the others ended up being some sort of struggle. The most recent was a struggle in the small area in front of an elevator...swirling around bouncing off the walls/doors to the elevator until the good guy was able to draw his concealed Glock 27 and put two contact shots through the bad guys ribcage....fight stopped instantly.

One that ended up without a shot fired was where one of my instructors was grabbed by a huge guy and picked up by his shoulders...he got his gun hand free, drew his weapon, stuck it in the center of the guys sternum and started to press the trigger when the bad guy let go, put his hands up and went down to his knees....no time to rack the slide.

The one time I started to press the trigger on a bad guy, he was about 5-7ft away when I saw what was happening. I had just enough time to draw, index on his chest and that caused him to freeze in this tracks....no time to mess with racking the slide.

One thing that advocates of this method absolutely overlook or don't know about is what happens to fine motor skills under pressure/adrenaline. You lose the ability to perform such actions smoothly, effectively or at all. This can make racking the slide a lot harder than it seems. I'm a very active competitive shooter and pretty frequently we have unloaded starts. Grab the gun, grab a mag off the table, insert, rack and start shooting. I practice this and have years of experience doing it, so the butterflys aren't nearly what they were years ago. I still am not as fast or smooth at it when I'm amped up at a big match where the adrenaline is pumping and I've got twenty people standing behind me watching....it's even worse for people who don't practice, don't have the experience and get really nervous (or both). I can't tell you how many huge screwups you see when watching this sort of start....even really, really good shooters that put a couple thousand rounds downrange every month fall victim to this.

To think that you're going to be able to draw, rack the slide and get a hit on a bad guy in any sort of reasonable timeframe is silly.

I can do an honest .8s draw and hit on anything inside 7yds from a normal (non-race style) holster (like a Safariland 568 paddle that I use for some matches) if things go right. If I fumble it a little, it's still going to be 1.0s give or take. Add in a slide rack and it's now probably 2.25 or something along those lines.

Why give the bad guys ANY chance at beating you? It's pretty unlikely for the average person to ever have to defend themselves, but think how foolish you'd feel if that one-in-a-million chance happens and you're wrestling with some monster thinking "boy, I sure wish I had a round in the chamber".....bad, bad, silly, stupid idea. As long as it's a modern weapon, it's more than safe enough to carry with a round in the chamber. If it's not, get something that is. R,

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USPSA TY23298

Yeah, the M16 carry mode probably won't ever change.

When I was a security police shift commander at Andrews I also had Navy SP's and Marine MP's working for me...they couldn't believe that they were actually going to be allowed to carry with a round in the chamber.

I will note that all of the services carry loaded weapons when protecting "special weapons" like the stuff we put in silos or boomer subs, but I think that's driven by the DOD 5210.41M rather than service regs. R,

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USPSA TY23298

KKG and G-manBart said it pretty well. It's pretty hard to believe that there are (otherwise) sane people who would carry a pistol without a round in the chamber. There are plenty of safe autos these days, but even if there were none, that would simply tell you why you should carry a revolver.

If your auto is not safe, sell it and buy a gun that is. If the gun is OK but you're scared to carry it right, either get familiar with it, or sell it and buy a gun that you can carry right. Do you think that you will always have two hands available? Do you think that good autoloaders never fail to feed manually under stress? Do you think that pants-cocking or belt-cocking an autoloader is a safer and more reliable maneuver than carrying with a round in the chamber? If you do, you need to learn a lot more before carrying a gun, particularly an autoloader.

Get a revolver and a decent holster to hold you until you learn a little more about guns.

I apologize for the fairly forceful way I have chosen to express myself. I do it, however, because I believe that you asked an honest question in good faith, and deserve a similar answer which I believe to be in your best interest.

Hope this helps.

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Formerly Model520Fan

I always carry in condition 1. What convinced me was thinking through what I'd do if caugt in a holdup or other bad situation with a group of people (convenience store, resturant, theater.) I wouldn't want to call immediate attention to myself by having to rack a slide. With my G19 I just have to ease it out of the holster and wait for a chance. No noise. No attention.

Empty chamber, equals empty gun, equals carrying a brick.

Any handgun that needs to be carried with an unloaded chamber for safety reasons isn't one to consider for serious social purposes.

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195th Session FBINA

I've been on the defensive in dangerous incidents enough times in my life to know that if I can't make it go bang with only one hand under stress, I'd be better off with an impact weapon or a blade. For that reason, I'd never defensively carry an older striker fired design (such as a Browning Baby) that weren't designed to pass a drop test. I normally have a handgun accessible to each hand if I leave my home.

My EDC primary is a J frame snubby in my strong side front pants pocket. My EDC back-up is a Seecamp .32ACP in the other front pants pocket. I always carry both fully loaded and ready to go (Condition 1 for the Seecamp). Larry Seecamp had great ideas for this small, last ditch pistol and I feel very comfortable with it as a back-up.

Best of luck,

Dave

In that case, you should take some personal defense classes. At less than 20 feet, a blade is the superior weapon vs a handgun.
Beyond the ability to take out the threat, just ask any surgeon if they would rather work on a knife or gunshot wound.

Knowing how dangerous and fast a blade attack can be should prompt everyone who carries a gun to carry loaded and locked. And, maybe to carry a blade rather than another gun.

Read somewhere that #1 cause of LEO gunshot wounds in US is self inflicted, caused by holstering Glocks with finger on the trigger... Not that noone ever told them to keep that finger off the trigger, but fatigue and stress take their toll.

That's one (of many) reasons why I choose to carry revolvers (with rounds in all chambers).

Mike

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9x19, 9x29R, 9x33R, 10x22

You're kidding right?

First off, I don't think the thread is about "knife versus gun" so I'm not sure what it adds to the original question.

Second, yes, a blade can be an extremely dangerous weapon in the hands of someone that knows what they're doing...no doubt, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily "superior" to a gun. A blade (other than a sword) has an extremly limited possibility of stopping a fight instantly, with one blow. With a gun, there are a number of situations where that's possible. There really isn't much of a central nervous system hit with a knife.

Using the whole "21 foot rule" to suggest a knife is superior is just silly. If the "victim" is armed with a handgun and knows how to move and shoot, the argument falls apart in both drills and real world. Sure, you have to learn/train how to do that, but it's not impossible.

All the 21 foot rule says is that it's the distance threshold a normal person can typically cover and strike you before can react and deliver return fire, but only if you don't move. If you move, the game changes entirely. If you stand your ground, block/blunt the cut/slash by accepting injury to the non-shooting hand/arm and deliver a contact shot to the CNS (head) the game changes too. It won't be pretty, but you can survive and win. There are a lot of scenarios that can play out, but to simply suggest a knife is superior is wishful thinking.

I recall going through an academy drill years ago. The instructors were demonstrating how a person taking a "quick peek" out from behind a wall were safe. "Nobody EVER hit them with gunfire even though the gun was pointed at where they'd appear from". Sure enough, the picked me to be the first shooter. When the guy did his quick peek I popped him right between the eyes (on his goggles) with a sim round. The instructor's just stood there and said "that's never happened before". Yeah, and they must not have ever put a competitive shooter up who has a TON of practice at shooting swingers that pop out just like that (me).

Taking a "rule" and blindly following it isn't usually the best bet. Try it out, test it and pick it to pieces. I have tested the 21 foot rule and if someone comes at me from 21 feet with a knife in the classic scenario, he might eventually wound me but he's getting shot...and a bunch of times at that.

To get back on topic, I'll add that in no uncertain terms do I think I could I move, rack the slide and shoot before the bad guy would be on me from 21ft....unless I had a LOT of room to run and move and put stuff between us.

Oh, and I do carry an automatic Benchmade Mini-Rukus and TWO guns, but I've thought about also carrying my auto Benchmade H&K blade in the opposite pocket as well...never know which hand might be free

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USPSA TY23298

Carrying a gun with an empty chamber is like pulling your shoulder harness across your chest and leaving it unbuckled until you think you are going to crash.

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

Or buying a 686 Plus, in order to have a six shooter?

back in the early 80s when I worked as an armed
guard, one of my co-workers carried his .38
revolver with only 4 rounds in the cylinder
his reason was if he dropped the gun it would
have to go off twice before it fired.

Let me add to the discussion of the 21 foot rule by saying, if you have seen that original video that we used teaching at the Police Academies well into the late 90s, that some officers were convinced that anything other than a gun was not a threat at any distance beyond which it could be, for example, swung at and hit the officer.

So, the gun stayed in the holster. That video served to illustrate that the gun should be out and the officer should be ready.

To be fair to the officers of that day, I recall citizens who were prosecuted by our Office for pointing a gun at someone who had a knife held in a threatening manner but was ten or more feet from the person with the gun (called Aggravated Assault).

The judges felt, when there was a Motion to Dismiss our charges, that the distance of ten or so feet meant the knife was no danger and, therefore, the pointing of a firearm was not in self-defense. Bad news for the person with the gun as Florida had long had the 3 year minimum mandatory prison term for crimes with a firearm.

Hard to believe "we" were so ignorant back in the 80s, but that video helped to change the attitude of courts and prosecutors about the danger of edged weapons and the speed at which one could be employed, at least in my area of Florida.

As to the idea of carrying a pistol with an empty chamber, I say, as respectfully as I can, that the person who does that is an idiot. If you are worried about it going "bang" when you don't want it to, then carry a revolver.

Bob

+1


I always carry with a round in the chamber. carrying a defensive side arm in anything other than a condition of readiness is a bad idea, IMO.

Odd are you'll never need your side arm, but if you do you're likely going to need it in a hurry. SD shooting are fast violent and up close. If your pistol is not ready to fire as soon as you clear leather you're apt to be shot or stabbed by the other guy.

Just my 2 cents.

Sip said, and I If you are on top of things, you will be able to apply the brakes and postpone the crash long enough buckle up.

Thanks, Barb. The Walther PPS, assuming it has no mechanical bugs remaining, is looking like the frontrunner in concealed semi automatic carry for personal SD.

See? That's why I started this discussion. Cocked and locked is NOT for everybody. That is why some carry DA autos and revolvers. Some guns (with FP safeties like the Series 80 Colts, later Kimbers, etc,) have a margin of safety if OFF safe and dropped. Let's take an older Colt 1908 .380, or Browning Hi Power. I have carried both cocked and locked, and on several occasions, the safety has been "wiped" to the off position, becasue both have safeties that don't "click" into place. I have even found some 1911A1's with safety off due to holsters, getting bumped, etc. Sure, the grip safety is a margin of safety if dropped, but a tuned 1911 type gun witn no other safeties on can go off if dropped the wrong way. There are other guns, many of which are as worthy to carry as a Model 36 S&W snub. I carried a DA magnum revolver for many years as a cop, and a 1911 pattern gun off duty for an equal amount of time. After evaluating all the dangerous aand potentially dangerous situations I was in, including the disarming of bad guys on two different occasion on my own, I have come to have a "feel" for iminent threats and danger, and shy of a "without warning, in-your-face" gun that I possibly won't see coming, I don't feel like I am THAT far behind to snag my gun and rack the slide. Once again, I know this is a trade off, and I am at risk in that statistically rare incident. If it makes one feel wasrm and fuzzy, and all that much more the master of their environment to be "cocked and locked, beat-you-to-the-draw ready", then so be it. I had a gun work it's way out of a holster once, too, in an examination room in a hospital. Didn't go off, but having a chamber loaded, tricked up auto hit a tile floor might still make me choke a bit until I recover from the fright and embarrasment. Ever hear of the guy who hung his Glock on the hook in the toilet stall, only to have it bump the trigger as he was hanging it, and have it go off several times recoiling against the hook and trigger, perpendicular from where he was standing? I have made a habit of putting my gun down in my pants between my legs where I know where it is and can easily draw it if needed. One of the officer's I worked with left his pistol BEHIND the toilet once (that's where he had gotten used to putting it when using the john), and FORGOT it there. That is REALLY embarassing. As we have seen from the responses, just about anything goes, as long as the user knows WHAT his plan is. Some might err on the side of safety, and some go with speed of presentation. It's always a compromise.

Oh, and with respect to all who feel empty chamber is nuts: Consider that it is probably MORE likely that one will have an accidental discharge or drop their weapon before they will actually use a gun in self defense in their lifetime. There are thousands of us carrying up to 365 days a year. How many in this forum have used the gun in self defense, as opposed to dropping the weapon unexpectedly, or having an AD? I had a friend that was "perfect" for a long time...he could NEVER understand how an accidental discharge could occur. He'd been trained by Gunsite no less than three times. Then he had an AD. Very humbling experience. In every armed confrontation (so far), I have had time to chamber a round if necessary. I have also been "disarmed" by a state who only recently (four years ago) got a concealed carry law into existence. Having a loaded but empty chamber gun at hand, and a plan to put into action, is infinitely better than NO GUN, or a gun back at the house or in the car. Do I EVER carry condition one? Oh yes! But sometimes I don't, for extra safety sake.

I have to agree with most others that do not subscribe to the empty chamber theory. Yes I witnessed a very impressive demonstration by Israeli shooters at the Bianchi Cup years ago. they are smooth and fast....But I takes two hands. A double action auto is no more or less than a fully loaded revolver. Single action, and squeeze cockers must be used and practiced with it is that simple. Don't stack the deck against yourself. The movies like the racking of the slide for effect, but it is like most things in movies (fantasy) Years ago most East coast and Mid West departments wore some kind of suicide holsters. thank God for California cops, the Border Patrol and Bill Jordan. In the 60s Cincinnati wore cross draw, St. Louis wore flap cross draws and Mo. Troopers wore a swivel and strap. None of those were worth a damn in an adrenalin packed situation. The cross draws were taboo even in PPC matches yet it took years to put the officers life in front of supposedly idiot proof holsters. No cartridge in the chamber is the same wrong thinking. Even the three stage security holsters have caused officers lives. You must practice so that muscle memory takes over in high stress situations....I'm not an expert but I'm still here after 40 years on the job.

One, if you've already made up your mind, why in the world did you ask the question?

Suggesting that dropping a modern gun will make it go off is silly. If it will go off by dropping it, it shouldn't be carried...period. I have a racegun with a 2lb trigger and you can drop it from ten feet and it's not going to go off. Springfield Armory guns passed the California drop test with NO firing pin safety of any kind...just the right combo of a light firing pin and a normal firing pin safety.

Just because you've been LUCKY so far and would have had the time to rack the slide doesn't mean that next time you'll be just as lucky.

If you carry condition one sometimes then you're already contradicting yourself. Nobody knows when things will go bad and when they won't so they can err on the side of safety...heck, if you're going to do that, leave the gun at home and be really, really safe.

Year of experience, years of luck and personal beliefs don't mean diddly when it comes to what bad guys can and will do. If you think it's reasonable enough that you might need a gun to the point that you carry one, it should be ready to use NOW. Not after loading it, not after doing a forward roll.....NOW...hand on gun, get it out and send lead downrange.

Go take some time and read the newly released summary of officers killed. It's a painful read, but time after time it's someone within arm length pulling a gun out and shooting the officer. If you're not a cop, you're even more likely to be surprised because you're the intended target/victim and not going out of your way to make contact with the bad guy.

I don't have a dog in the fight, but I know that your ideas and justifications are absolutely wrong and the idea that someone might read this and believe it bothers me. You've already decided what you want to do, and that's fine....I hope you continue to be lucky, but you're clearly in the extreme minority here (and everywhere else in my experience)...I don't think it's responsible to suggest that others should follow that example.

The idea that anybody would suggest adding ANY additional task, much less requiring dexterity and the use of both hands, that would need to be completed before you can attempt to defend yourself is so mind-numbingly foolish as to be almost criminal. I don't mean that to offend, but it is what it is.

For anyone reading this, ask yourself this one question and see if it passes the idiot test:

Do you want to leave yourself ANY chance that you might be wrestling with a monster while thinking "if my gun had a round in the chamber, I could shoot him, but it's not, he's bigger and stronger than I am, pumped up on meth/coke/etc and I might never see my family again"?

If the answer is that you would never want to be thinking that....get a safe, modern gun and carry it with a round in the chamber, or get a revolver.

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USPSA TY23298

G-manBart,

You obviously believe that your way is the right way, and that's fine and good. But I think your emotional tirade missed the point some of us were making.

Carrying condition 1 is not a free lunch - there is a price to be paid for speed. The price is higher chance of self inflicted injury. It's high enough to become a primary cause of gunshot wounds for cops. That's what worries some of us. If you want to imply that we are idiots or criminals - be my guest.

Mike

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9x19, 9x29R, 9x33R, 10x22

A price to be paid for speed? Modern pistols are designed to be carried loaded and NEGLIGENT discharges (accidental is the wrong term) are the fault of the handler, not the gun. If you carry a gun because you feel you may need to defend yourself with it then there is no argument, you carry the thing fully loaded and ready to go. If you believe that you'll be able to draw, load, and accurately fire the weapon while fighting with someone or being shot at then you're fooling yourself. The assumption that everything, no, let me rephrase that - the assumption that ANYTHING is going to go your way if you ever have to use your gun is foolishness.

Picture two shooters of equal ability side by side at the range, guns holstered. On the whistle they draw and fire 3rds. Who is going to be faster and more accurate? The guy who's gun is charged and ready, every time. When the bullets are flying that second or two or three could be what makes the difference between living and dying.

If you're weapon is in good repair and functioning properly, you have trained with it and are competent in it's use, are carrying it in an appropriate, good quality holster, and STILL don't trust yourself or the weapon enough to carry it the way it was designed then you have no business carrying it at all.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

Wrong scenario, WC. I don't usually carry auto's but do practice Israeli draw. In your scenario there will be no difference in time - you rack the slide while drawing and it does not take extra time.

Problem with carrying cond 3 is that you need both hands to rack the slide - and you may not have'em. That's where the odds are. You have to weight these odds against odds of ND and make your own decision. You believe cond 1 is right for you - great, it's your choice. My choice is to carry revolver.

And BTW, my friend, nobody is foolish here. We are all responsible adults making our own decisions.

Mike

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9x19, 9x29R, 9x33R, 10x22

Here is a perfect example of theory at work. Everyone with an opinion here is talking about hypotheticals. At point blank, the guy with the chamber full might get the first shot off...or he might hesitate for some reason. I have watched some people NOT get their safeties off (some agencies even require a DA auto to also be on safe, and I believe Mas Ayoob has also given some reasons for that practice). I have seen officers struggle with retention holsters, bad guys get hammers snagged on clothing, etc. Two equal men side by side is some kind of dream thing. In the real world it is a **** shoot. Good cover is better than standing in the open quick drawing (see NYPD's take on officer survival). Why did I ask the question? Because I love to hear other people's take on things, and it makes me think. I think it might make everyone else think, too, unless, of course, minds are closed or one believes that THEIR way is the only way. Just look at the responses here, and you'll see there IS more than one way, for more than one reason. For twenty plus years in law enforcement, I had to have the best equipment, trained hard, and wanted to be the fastest and best on my department. I trained to respond and place the bullet first if possible. Slowly, it became apparent to me that the multitude of factors that govern a gunfight make it impossible to insure a positive result everytime...thus the "**** shoot". You enter any building, or round any corner, even knowing the bad guys are nearby, and you are still at the mercy of who sees who first. The few micro seconds of presentation are lost among all the other response. OF course, if gunplay was iminently likely, you got your gun out and ready ahead of time...chambers of shotguns for instance are usually charged after drawing the weapon from the vehicle, etc. I just started to regard the handgun the same way, when that particular weapon seemed to deem it (a DA revolver NEVER needs an empty chamber.) I DO carry Browning HP condition one in a shoulder holster on occasion...a fine weapon..but I have found the safety off on occasion, too, and going back to empty chamber doesn't handicap me enough to make me overly worried. I just know what I'm going to do when I draw.

Mike,

First things first, that wasn't an "emotional tirade", it was a well-reasoned response to someone, that quite painfully, doesn't seem to know what they're talking about because their very statements contradict themselves. If that isn't exactly the case then it seems that they are making an emotion decision based on flawed logic. Neither scenario is really all that helpful for folks who might read this and I'll note he didn't reply to my questions to him, so that tells me something.

Second, the threadstarted posed a question to which, it now seems clear, he had already formed a definite opinion. So, was he asking the question to stir up a controversy or was he doing it to "convert" others? He certainly isn't going to change how he carries and he certainly wasn't asking for advice...although he posed it that way at first. Not exactly a fair, honest and unbiased representation any way you look at it. What good is asking a question you already have decided upon....just so you can read what others say and still disagree?

Third, where have you seen any documented, reliable data that the primary cause of gunshot wounds to cops are self-inflicted? Also, if you've seen that, are they fatal injuries or not? Suicide can be lumped in to accidental/negligent discharge statistics to skew the number since law enforcement has always had a pretty high suicide rate. Still, over the years I've looked and haven't found self-inflicted wounds to officers documented anywhere. The CDC seems to lump all gunshot wounds together and doesn't break out law enforcement specifically.

I have been in law enforcement for only 15 years, which isn't terribly long, but in that time I don't know a single person who's injured themselves with a gun. In fact, I don't know anybody who has a friend or former coworker that's had that happen. Now, maybe I've worked with all the best gun handlers around, but I pretty much doubt that. Sure, it has happened and will continue to do so, but it's not at a rate that should alarm anyone other than to increase the focus on training and preventing repeat mistakes that can be avoided.

I work in an agency with approximately 12,000 gun toters (was in two others prior to this). In the past year we've had zero self-inflicted wounds and two fatal wounds during an adversarial situation. I'm a firearms instructor, and I get notices about all the shootings both accidental and otherwise. I'm going off memory and think that the last self-inflicted wound we had was over a year ago, but it's possible that it was slightly less....not being in the office, I can't access the notice on it to check. In that situation, the drawstring of a jacket cought the trigger and caused a true AD (different from a negligent discharge)....put a slight crease on the agents butt, and a lesson learned for everyone about their clothing choices. That's bad, but even if there's one in a year out of 12K, that's not exactly what I'd call "dangerous". A lot more folks are going to be seriously injured in car accidents every year than that....we work to prevent them, but they're still going to happen.

Rather than discuss theories, look at REAL numbers. In 2007, there were 83 law enforcement officers killed accidentally. Of those 83, only four were killed by firearms. All four of those were situations involving a cross-fire or mistaken identity (thought to be the bad guy). Not a single one was self-inflicted. You can read it for yourself here:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2007/a...llykilled.html

The average cop gets a couple of days of range time and maybe 300-500 rounds worth of training at their academy. After that there is almost no training, only qualifying, which is nothing more than legal documentation. They then qualify from one to four times a year, but even four times, is a lot more than most places....once or twice a year is the most common I've seen. Almost anybody can train themselves to a MUCH higher standard than the typical cop....keep in mind I wear a badge and I'm gladly admitting this. Cops, as shooters, generally stink. Ask the few that you see at the range what they think about their fellow officer's gun skills and if they're not too embarrased, they'll tell you that for the most part they're terrible...sad, but true.

Go out once per month and shoot two hundred rounds with some sort of discipline/plan in mind and you're WAY ahead of probably 98% of the cops out there when it comes to proficiency. Using police training and proficiency as a model is a bad starting point...plain and simple.

Since this thread is about the Israeli carry method, you have to understand a little bit about it, to know whether it applies to you and the way you live, work, carry etc.

There aren't a ton of ranges in Israel, they have precious little time and money to spend on firearms training and they have some very unique living conditions. They found that giving largely untrained people loaded firearms caused problems. They also found that because of the unique conditions there, many of the armed folks didn't necessarily have to carry with a round chambered. They don't have many/any car-jackings, armed muggings, stick ups at 7-Elevens etc....those are true reactive scenarios. What they do have are checkpoints where terrorists/suicide bombers will try to get through. Bad guy comes through one side of the checkpoint, things don't seem right, they draw, rack the slide and order them to stop while safely behind barriers in case the bad guys blow themselves up. That is NOT what most people live like. The normal cops there train more like our cops do and many of them are authorized to carry with a round in the chamber.

The Israeli's also found that since they were dealing with quickly trained people on a budget, the empty chamber, draw, rack, fire training also reinforced and dovetailed with emergency action drills. If you press the trigger and the gun doesn't go bang, you smack the mag, rack the slide and evaluate whether you need to shoot. Half of that action is identical to what you do when you draw to engage, so the two compliment each other and save training time.

Put all that together and it's a pretty unique set of circumstances and it led to some pretty unique solutions, but they don't necessarily apply here.

In your reply to WC you said that with the scenario of two people side-by-side, one with a loaded gun and the other with an empty chamber, the speed for three hits would be the same.

If that's true, then the person with the fully loaded weapon doesn't know what they're doing and need additional training. In the matches I shoot, we are often forced to do this exact scenario (well, without the other person). I know my times to draw and hit a target at various ranged down to the tenths of seconds required. I also know how long it takes to draw, rack the slide and shoot and it's not even remotely close. Pick a 10yd target, which is less of a disadvantage than something closer. I can reliably react, draw and put a solid hit on that target in 1.0s all day long and faster when I'm really on (like .8s). If I have to rack the slide, I'm going to be right about 2.0S if I get it perfect. If I fumble it, even slightly, it's way slower. In fact, I can draw and put six rounds (center hits) into a target at 10yds in 2.0s reliably. So, I've hit the bad guy six times before the slide racking guy of equal skill gets off his first shot....no contest, end of story, the timer doesn't lie. Not everyone will have the same numbers, but nobody is going to be as fast, or faster when racking the slide.

At close ranges like 1-3yds, the difference is going to be even bigger since I can fire almost immediately after the gun clears leather and not have to bring the gun all the way up, rack the slide and then shoot....anybody can test this and see for themselves, but the results are going to be the same for everyone.

The thing that none of the few folks advocating carrying an empty chamber will address is probably the most important. If they feel the need to carry a gun for the unlikely event that they'll need it, why won't they carry it with a round in the chamber for the more likely chance that they won't have two hands free if the unlikely event does happen? Like I said before, only one of the guys I know who's been forced to shoot someone would have had time to rack the slide, or had both hands free to do so. The three times I had to reactively draw on someone I would not have had time to rack the slide. Luckily I didn't ever have to shoot, but at least I would have been able to do so if needed.

It's like the folks that say "I only carry when I think I'm going to need it". Well, if you REALLY thought you were going to need it, you'd carry a long gun, a spare gun, bring friends with guns or go somewhere else and avoid needing a gun in the first place. It's absolutely illogical when you boil it down to facts and reality rather than whimsical assumptions.

Again, everyone needs to ask themselves how they'd like to be wrestling with a monster thinking how nice it would be to have a round in the chamber of the now useless gun they went out of their way to buy, learn to shoot and carry.

If someone feels they want/need to carry a gun to defend themselves then they need to learn to do it the right way and not kid themselves that they're "safer" by carrying with an empty chamber...there isn't a free lunch to get around that. In fact, it goes opposite of cardinal rule #1....treat all firearms as if they are loaded. If you do that, it doesn't matter if it's got a round in the chamber, does it? R,

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USPSA TY23298

^^^That pretty well sums it up.

I am an LEO, I'm a one man department in a little rural town. Around here cops are few and far between. Of course, we don't have much violent crime around here either. However, simply because this area is not a hot bed of criminal activity doesn't mean that the next person I talk to won't be the one that just killed his wife, or is meeting another *** for a drug deal, or is on the run from somewhere else and refuses to go back, or is just plain f**ked up and wants to shoot somebody today. Now, considering those realities, however slim the chances may be, would it make sense for me to walk out of the house this morning without my duty weapon fully charged and without the mind set that no matter what happens today I'm coming home at the end of it? Obviously not, because that level of preparedness is simply common sense for any cop, BUT IT IS ALSO COMMON SENSE FOR EVERYBODY ELSE. Any one of you might run into those same people today and you need to be as ready as you can be for that possibility. To carry a gun that is not ready to fire is simply giving an unnecessary advantage to an enemy who is certainly NOT going to give you any breaks in return. I don't know what else there is to say.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

And what if one of your arms has already been taken out of the fight by injury or being held by the accomplice?

I like my DAO semi-autos. They're safe to carry with a round in the chamber, have that long trigger pull, no safeties to fumble wtih, the ammunition capacity beats revolvers, and they have a slim concealment profile.