Carrying on School Grounds

So now I'm totally confused. Starting at the beginning of this year we enrolled our 3 year old daughter at a new private school/daycare. Previously she had been at a private in-home daycare.

I had remembered from my concealed carry course that carrying on school grounds was illegal in Arizona unless the weapon is unloaded and locked within the car. So for the last few weeks I have not been carrying when picking up or dropping off my daughter.

I went back and reviewed my "Arizona Gun Owners Guide" book and was not able to find a definitive answer. They did make some distinctions between public and private schools, but there was no clear cut answer. Fortunately I was able to confirm that my Arizona Concealed Weapons Permit does override the Federal Safe School Zones legislation.

I then looked up the Arizona State Statutes and I'm even more confused. I've cut and pasted the pertinent sections below. Item 12 states that possessing a deadly weapon on school grounds is considered misconduct involving a firearm. However item 4 under section C is an exemption, "A person specifically licensed, authorized or permitted pursuant to a statute of this state or of the United States." Does being in possession of a valid Arizona Concealed Weapons Permit constitute being specifically permitted to be in possession of a firearm on school grounds?

I'd like to be able to start carrying again with my daughter in the car. However, I do not want the risk associated with being in violation of the law on school grounds. Does anyone else have further information on this and how it applies in Arizona?

Thanks in advance.

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/...Title=13&DocType=ARS

13-3102. Misconduct involving weapons; defenses; classification; definitions

A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:

12. Possessing a deadly weapon on school grounds; or

C. Subsection A, paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 7, 10, 11, 12 and 13 of this section shall not apply to:

1. A peace officer or any person summoned by any peace officer to assist and while actually assisting in the performance of official duties; or

2. A member of the military forces of the United States or of any state of the United States in the performance of official duties; or

3. A warden, deputy warden or correctional officer of the state department of corrections; or

4. A person specifically licensed, authorized or permitted pursuant to a statute of this state or of the United States.

So now I'm totally confused. Starting at the beginning of this year we enrolled our 3 year old daughter at a new private school/daycare. Previously she had been at a private in-home daycare.

I had remembered from my concealed carry course that carrying on school grounds was illegal in Arizona unless the weapon is unloaded and locked within the car. So for the last few weeks I have not been carrying when picking up or dropping off my daughter.

I went back and reviewed my "Arizona Gun Owners Guide" book and was not able to find a definitive answer. They did make some distinctions between public and private schools, but there was no clear cut answer. Fortunately I was able to confirm that my Arizona Concealed Weapons Permit does override the Federal Safe School Zones legislation.

I then looked up the Arizona State Statutes and I'm even more confused. I've cut and pasted the pertinent sections below. Item 12 states that possessing a deadly weapon on school grounds is considered misconduct involving a firearm. However item 4 under section C is an exemption, "A person specifically licensed, authorized or permitted pursuant to a statute of this state or of the United States." Does being in possession of a valid Arizona Concealed Weapons Permit constitute being specifically permitted to be in possession of a firearm on school grounds?

I'd like to be able to start carrying again with my daughter in the car. However, I do not want the risk associated with being in violation of the law on school grounds. Does anyone else have further information on this and how it applies in Arizona?

Thanks in advance.

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/...Title=13&DocType=ARS

13-3102. Misconduct involving weapons; defenses; classification; definitions

A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:

12. Possessing a deadly weapon on school grounds; or

C. Subsection A, paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 7, 10, 11, 12 and 13 of this section shall not apply to:

1. A peace officer or any person summoned by any peace officer to assist and while actually assisting in the performance of official duties; or

2. A member of the military forces of the United States or of any state of the United States in the performance of official duties; or

3. A warden, deputy warden or correctional officer of the state department of corrections; or

4. A person specifically licensed, authorized or permitted pursuant to a statute of this state or of the United States.

I would not do it. You might want to run that past a local attorney. I have found that questions of law can be quite costly to get answered.

It's funny that in Ca you can ccw on school grounds with a valid permit, however, you can't bring a knife???

Penal Code Section 626.9
a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.

(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written permission of the school district superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as specified in subdivision (f).

(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm under any of the following circumstances: [...]

(4) When the person is exempt from the prohibition against carrying a concealed firearm pursuant to subdivision (b), (d), (e), or (h) of Section 12027.[...]

(l) This section does not apply to a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in California, any person summoned by any of these officers to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while he or she is actually engaged in assisting the officer, a member of the military forces of this state or of the United States who is engaged in the performance of his or her duties, a person holding a valid license to carry the firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4, or an armored vehicle guard, engaged in the performance of his or her duties, as defined in subdivision (e) of Section 7521 of the Business and Professions Code.

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Az ccw laws are a bit different than Ca ccw laws. strangely more restrictive. For example, it's my understanding if alcohol is served in the building (like Applebees) then ccw is forbidden in Az. The same situation, so long as I'm not drinking booze, Ca ccw law allows the permit holder to carry.

Az recognizes Ca permits, and I think it's terrible Ca doesn't reciprocate.

I'm not a lawyer, more specifically not an Arizona lawyer. After several readings, I believe exception 4 could be read to permit your posession assuming that the concealed weapons permits are in fact established by Arizona statute. I expect, the interpretation would be a statute specifically authorizing your carry as in a Special Police Officer, Security Guard etc.

One way to find out is take your information and have a chat with the staff of the local District Attorney.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Don't know about anyother states but, North Carolina is a no-no for any type of educational facility. </span>

In Ohio it is OK in the parking lot of elementary and seconday schools ONLY while picking up or dropping off students.

However, it is legal here to leave your gun in the car while visiting or attending classes at any higher education facility (community colleges and higher).

My CCW instructor (AZ) said that having a permit absolves you of liability on the state reg that prohibits having a gun within 500 feet of a school. But, if you enter onto the school grounds you must remove and secure the weapon, as in off your person and secured in the vehicle. He never mentioned picking up/dropping off but if you don't actually drive onto the school grounds (pick them up on the public street), you should be OK. Not sure if staying in the car while dropping/picking would make a difference. Ask a local LEO, that's what I do with gun questions.

There are two questions posed/issues raised... Merely holding an AZ (or any other state's) CCW does not make you "a person specifically licensed, authorized, or permitted...) Despite having a CCW, you're still a civilian as far as this law goes. (Similarly, your CCW doesn't give you a pass on carry prohibitions in federal buildings, courthouses, polling places, etc.) On the other hand, a private school/daycare facility is not a schoolground as defined by state or federal law, and you're OK to carry there, same as on the street.

It is imprudent to rely on reading the published statutes, and even on well interpreted
explanations of the statutes. Alan Korwin has repeatedly revised his Arizona Gun Owner's Guide, to his credit, but every time you may think some statutory issue is cut and dried, black and white, some screwball court decision caroms common sense off its intended vector...

My first choice is - When in doubt, don't. If you know an officer that is a supervisor, such as Sgt. or higher, ask that officer their personal opinion on the law and what they think most patrol officers would do if you were there and had the weapon. In TN, regardless of the state laws, each town and/or county, it is not uncommon for situations to have a local twist to the law. Always really best to retreat than stand and shoot it out anyway, is a another good way to think when one packs. These days, even cops get looked at much harder when they use force.

Check with the state AG office. In Texas I can have it stored in my auto; While attending an event or picking up and dropping off. But I can not take it into the building, Playing fields etc.

In Missouri, a licensed CCW MAY NOT be carried on any school grounds.

Originally posted by gold40:
In Missouri, a licensed CCW MAY NOT be carried on any school grounds.

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Not true. As per Missouri Revised Statutes Chapter 571, Weapons Offenses Section 571.107:

571.107. 1. A concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize the person in whose name the permit or endorsement is issued to carry concealed firearms on or about his or her person or vehicle throughout the state. No driver's license or nondriver's license containing a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize any person to carry concealed firearms into:
.
.
.
(10) Any higher education institution or elementary or secondary school facility without the consent of the governing body of the higher education institution or a school official or the district school board. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of any higher education institution or elementary or secondary school facility shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

LINK

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re: Missouri School Grounds Carry....

While I don't want to sound like Bill Clinton, it depends upon your definition of the word "CARRY".

As I read the statute, one may NOT CARRY on school grounds without specific permission. One MAY leave the gun in the car, without permission.

JERRY

Originally posted by gold40:
re: Missouri School Grounds Carry....

While I don't want to sound like Bill Clinton, it depends upon your definition of the word "CARRY".

As I read the statute, one may NOT CARRY on school grounds without specific permission. One MAY leave the gun in the car, without permission.

JERRY

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As long as you don't get out of your vehicle (and you possess a valid CCW), you can carry concealed on your person while in your vehicle on school grounds. The law was specifically written that way to allow CCW holders to drop-off/pick-up students without fear of being in violation of the law. The language is very clear. That said, you may not leave the vehicle with the weapon or take it into any school building without permission from the governing body of the higher education institution or a school official or the district school board.

Ask youself this. Will it be worth getting into all of that trouble and maybe even getting arrested and handcuffed in front of your daughter and all of her friends just to split hairs with the wording of a law? Just put it in a cheap case in the trunk when you go onto school grounds and don't tell anybody.

I am having a lot of trouble finding information on Massachusetts laws in regard to school zones and concealed carry.

I just read a horror story about a man who was not on school grounds, but within "X" amount of distance from the school. He had a cased shotgun in his trunk while at a gas station on the same block as the school. The gas station attendant saw it, asked what was in the box, and promptly called the police. The man was charged, did jail time, lost his job as a vice president at his company, his home, his wife and family, and just about everything else.

This is very scary stuff. The laws differ greatly from state to state, and they are very hard to access and understand. There are many contradictions which make it guesswork. I don't want to be guessing when such harsh penalties are a possibility. My MA license is a non-resident class "A" for all lawful purposes.

Any help would be appreciated.

WG840

Rule #1 for concealed carry is that nobody sees your weapon, ever. Unless you decide to produce it, which you don't do until you feel that your life is threatened.

So - as far as the rest of the world is concerned, you don't have a gun.

Considering that schools are widely known to be "gun-free zones", they are a favorite magnet for nutcases.

Given what you have riding on this (the potential well-being of your child, or someone else's child), it is an easy call to make.

Just don't walk through any metal detectors. Your gun won't do you any good in the trunk of your car.

WG840,

I believe that the relevant statute is named something like Chap 140, Sec 129C (j), Carrying a firearm on school grounds, only in THIS paragraph, unlike most or all others, "firearm" means "any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged BY WHATEVER MEANS." Basically, it says that unless you're a cop, you can't carry one of those things in the building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university, even if you have a license, without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such school.

Hope this is what you were looking for.

P.S. I don't know anything about zones, except that it was federal, and the federal school stuff was at least partly overturned by the US Supreme Court, and I think that if it survived at all, it may not apply to licensed individuals. You might want to take a look at www. northeastshooters.com .

Thank you very much for that info Model520Fan.

I talked to an asst. DA from MA tonight, and she said that she would look into it for me. She is the wife of a close friend, so I know she will get me information that pertains to my specific situation.

Here is the law that you pointed out to me:

(j) Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined, loaded or unloaded or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. For the purpose of this paragraph, “firearm” shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged by whatever means.
Any officer in charge of an elementary or secondary school, college or university or any faculty member or administrative officer of an elementary or secondary school, college or university failing to report violations of this paragraph shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and punished by a fine of not more than five hundred dollars.

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This is the legalese that I do not understand:

and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, ...

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Does this mean it's OK with a CCW, or not OK even if you have one?


Thanks again,
WG840