I live in Virginia. My understanding of the law is that you can "open carry" a handgun into a restaurant that serves liquor without a concealed carry permit. However, you cannot concealed carry a handgun into a restaurant that serves liquor even with a concealed carry permit. The problem with "open carry" is that it may intimidate other patrons and, if you run into the wrong police officer, they may not agree with your position that a small revolver in a waste holster is open rather than concealed. So I figured that I would unload the handgun and stow in the trunk of my car.

Virginia has a law that probably is fairly common regarding "brandishing." As I understand it, that means that you cannot openly display a handgun in a manner that creates some sort of fear or apprehension to the public.

I have a concealed carry permit. Yesterday, I'm about to have lunch with a friend, and I notice that the restaurant serves liquor. Since I'm carrying a concealed handgun, I cannot legally enter unless I either "open carry" or stow the handgun, unloaded, in the trunk of my car. Since I ruled out "open carry," I decide to go to stow the gun, unloaded, in the trunk of my car. So there I am, in a crowded outdoor parking lot in a shopping mall, stooping over the trunk of my car, unloading the handgun, hoping that some snooping passer-by doesn't accuse me of brandishing.

How do I "lawfully," remove the loaded handgun from my holster, in an outdoor parking lot, unload same, and place in the trunk of my car while minimizing the risk of "brandishing"? Thanks in advance for your comments and suggestions.

I live in Virginia. My understanding of the law is that you can "open carry" a handgun into a restaurant that serves liquor without a concealed carry permit. However, you cannot concealed carry a handgun into a restaurant that serves liquor even with a concealed carry permit. The problem with "open carry" is that it may intimidate other patrons and, if you run into the wrong police officer, they may not agree with your position that a small revolver in a waste holster is open rather than concealed. So I figured that I would unload the handgun and stow in the trunk of my car.

Virginia has a law that probably is fairly common regarding "brandishing." As I understand it, that means that you cannot openly display a handgun in a manner that creates some sort of fear or apprehension to the public.

I have a concealed carry permit. Yesterday, I'm about to have lunch with a friend, and I notice that the restaurant serves liquor. Since I'm carrying a concealed handgun, I cannot legally enter unless I either "open carry" or stow the handgun, unloaded, in the trunk of my car. Since I ruled out "open carry," I decide to go to stow the gun, unloaded, in the trunk of my car. So there I am, in a crowded outdoor parking lot in a shopping mall, stooping over the trunk of my car, unloading the handgun, hoping that some snooping passer-by doesn't accuse me of brandishing.

How do I "lawfully," remove the loaded handgun from my holster, in an outdoor parking lot, unload same, and place in the trunk of my car while minimizing the risk of "brandishing"? Thanks in advance for your comments and suggestions.

You are overthinking this. Just take it off while inside the car, stuff it somewhere, and go in and do your business.

Or CC anyway.

I think you answered your own question. Is putting it in your trunk personally threatening to anybody? no. I wouldn't worry about it.

I wouldn't want anyone seeing me put my gun in my trunk and then walk away.

I would take my gun and holster off my belt while still inside my car. I would them put it in a bag or box or something that would hide the fact that it is a gun. Then I would get out of the car and put it in the trunk.

Or, better yet, just slip it under the front seat so I can put it back on when I return to my car.

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BamaBear

These work well

Center of Mass Safe

Cabelas also has a similar model

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Compact 9mm Just my $0.02

You could of course do what many others in VA do and ignore that part of the law of course. Or learn to enjoy Cracker Barrel, Bob Evans, and Waffle House, none of which serve alcohol.

Assuming that you don't want to do that, keep a newspaper in your car. Take the gun out in the car, wrap it in the paper, put the paper in the trunk. I always like to use the Wall Street Journal. Bubble envelopes also work well.

I wouldn't mess around with unloading it either personally. If you're really worried about an AD, just pop the cylinder open and leave it broken open.

What Gator said...

"Brandishing" has menacing and aggressive connotations. The sight of a gun is not illegal in Virginia.

That's a great answer....

In fact, it is. Anybody who has carried a gun daily for very many years has probably figured out that there is very little danger in carrying a gun concealed in a holster, even in places where it is illegal. However, the danger of handling it, particularly unloading and loading it, especially in circumstances where you may be trying to conceal what you are doing from passersby, is not so small. Covert handling leads to errors. Will you be pointing it in a safe direction? If you unload it, will you point it skyward? What if you start to drop it? What if you hit your head on the trunk lid as you start to stand up?

By far the safest thing to do is to LEAVE IT ALONE. Either stop going to places that serve booze, or MOVE TO MASSACHUSETTS , where a permit-holder LEGALLY just puts the thing on in the morning and takes it off at night.

That comment about MA, of course, was not really a recommendation, but I thought I'd point out that things are not quite as bad here as is sometimes represented.

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Formerly Model520Fan

Using your point, what separates us from the "scum-bags", a.k.a.BG's who carry illegally?
This puts us even in an eruption that might come up in a bar, but where is the responsibility? I'm surprised at this attitude, giving anti-gun aficionados more ammunition. Like it was said, go back to the vehicle; no big-deal...

We carry to protect ourselves and our own, not prey on the innocent. That's a very big difference IMO.

Chances are the BG's didn't go through the background checks, FBI checks, finger printing, photographing, character references, ATF forms, etc, that we did to get a permit in the first place. World of difference between the 2!!

Go back and drive away? Fine.

Go back and unload publicly and leave the gun in the trunk, showing everyone which car to break into? Not so smart. Used to be illegal in MA, now it isn't, but it isn't any smarter than it ever was. Anywhere.

Go back and unload so no one can see what you have or what you are doing? Please describe how this is done, and how the pistol is pointed in a safe direction during this entire evolution. So far, I don't think you have this one figured out, but I'm certainly willing to hear your answer.

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Formerly Model520Fan

Stick your gun in the glove box, loaded, and lock the glove box.

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J.D. Roy

I can't see any officer in VA even arresting you for brandishing if you are putting your gun away in the trunk of your car. Can you imagine the ***-chewing he'd get from a judge when that one came to court?

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Why duck?? It's a 9mm!

Hi, Folks. Thanks, as usual, for all the great comments. The suggestions included: that I was overthinking the issue; that I should stow the gun in a locked glovebox; that I should stow the gun in a purpose built safe; that I should wrap the gun in a newspaper (preferably The Wall Street Journal), then stow in the trunk; that I should just stow the loaded handgun in the trunk; that I should stow the unloaded handgun in the trunk; that I should pick a different restaurant; that I should open carry in the restaurant; and that I should concealed carry in the restaurant.

OK, maybe I am overthinking things. But since I've already asked the question and got some interesting comments, I might as well reply to some: I thought of picking a different restaurant, but it was late in the afternoon, we already were there, and that's where my friend wanted to go. I may have had a newspaper, but just my luck, it wasn't The Wall Street Journal, so I couldn't wrap it. I know that some folks concealed carry in private shops that say "no handguns allowed;" but I think that that's regarded as "tresspassing," a relatively minor offense. I think that concealed carry in a restaurant that serves liquor is a bit more serious. The glove box and gun safe are interesting options; but the problem with that is that I'd be sitting in my convertible, with the top down, in a crowded parking lot, handling a firearm; that may be no better than leaning over the trunk of the car. And what the heck do I do when I ride my motorcycle? I discussed with a Virginia police officer, and he said that the chances were 50/50 that an officer would say that a motorcycle saddlebag is not "secure" enough to be in compliance with the law. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.

+1.

It's what I do here, since Ohio prohibits carry of any kind into an establishment which serves liquor by the drink for on premise consumption.

If it's convenient, if I know I'm going some place where I can't carry (liquor license or posted), I unholster and put my firearm in the glove box while I'm still at my point of origin. That way, anybody who sees my firearm will be some place else when I reach my destination and exit my vehicle. There's no problem AT ALL legally putting my gun in the glove box, regardless of who sees it. Ohio is an open carry state. I never HAVE to conceal it in the first place, and in fact, until recently you HAD to open carry while in a vehicle.

I just wish they'd remove the Class D liquor license prohibition. Other than fast food restaurants, pretty much everywhere I go to eat out has a liquor license. I never drink while carrying a firearm, and it gets annoying having to disarm just so I can eat dinner.

Ohio laws are such that if you are going to carry effectively, you are going to break a few of them.

If you were to follow our law 100%, then you may as well just carry while you drive. Because in many areas of the state, particularly all the large urban ones, that is the only place not posted.

You can roll you [*edited*] eyes all you want, but that's just the way it is. {Please, ok? Thanks. ~ Barb}

Big boy rules apply.

As is true of lots of other folks I know, the advent of CHL statutes just made me an honest man. I carried for years before it was legal to do so, knowing that it was far, far more likely that I'd need a gun to protect myself than it was that I'd be "made" or searched. Since I didn't make a practice of breaking any other laws, I didn't worry about violating a grossly unconstitutional statutory prohibition. Most of the folks I knew in law enforcement back then in my part of the world(and there were lots of them) looked the other way with regard to good people "unlawfully" carrying, knowing that the folks they were most likely to have to handle couldn't care less that there was a law against carrying a gun, given that they were committing real crimes. There is a difference between good people carrying a gun with the hope that they don't have to use it, and scumbags carrying with plans to use it. Reality is not a concept understood or cared about by far too many legislators, and violation of an idiotic law doesn't make anyone a bad person, just like rigid adherence to "being legal" doesn't make anyone good. My opinion, worth just as much as you paid.

FWIW
bran·dish
Pronunciation: \?bran-dish\
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English braundisshen, from Anglo-French brandiss-, stem of brandir, from brant, braund sword, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English brand
Date: 14th century
1 : to shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly
2 : to exhibit in an ostentatious or aggressive manner

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jj

I didn't realize you were talking about a convertible. That could change things a little bit. I'm sure you'll find a good idea for your problem.

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J.D. Roy

We have the same stupid law in New Mexico; we can't carry concealed in a restaurant that serves booze for on-site consumption. If I have to disarm and place my gun under the seat (or in the trunk), I do it before arriving at the restaurant, preferably miles away so that anyone who might see anything won't be around when I finally park. (Of course, this leaves me unarmed for that possible carjack that occurs on route!)

And I don't unload as I don't want to mess with a gun when I'm trying to do something quickly.

Thankfully in KY the law reads that you can't carry into:

c. any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense beer or alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to that purpose;

So you here you are fine unless your sitting at the bar.

Proud to be near dead last on the Brady list!!

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"Give me Liberty..."

Hi, again. Some good news from the NRA. I just got an email from them saying that a legislator introduced a bill in the Virginia assembly to make it legal to carry a concealed handgun, with a permit, in a restaurant that serves liquor, so long as the handgun owner doesn't themselves drink any. Hopefully, that'll take care of the issue.

jj2AM44: Thanks for the definition of brandishing. Unfortunately, from what I've been able to discover, Virginia has its own definition of the term. The Virginia definition may be a bit broader. It includes, displaying a handgun in "such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm * * * in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured." That covers quite a bit of territory, and I would prefer not to get into a debate about "reasonableness" with a police officer or a judge if some person walking with a small child decides to accuse me of inducing fear in their mind.

That's funny because here in Rocky River, the only places I see posted are places with liquor licenses, the Post Office, Best Cuts, Half Price Books, Fedex and a couple of office buildings I don't go into anyway.
NONE of the banks are.
NONE of the grocery stores are.
The big new bookstore at the mall isn't.
None of the fast food places I go to is (MacDonalds, Wendy's, Arby's, Five Guys, Chik-Fil-A).
Walgreen's isn't.
Neither Home Depot nor Lowe's is.
Office Max isn't.

The malls in North Olmsted and Westlake are, but if you leave your gun in the car, at MOST it's civil trespassing, and ONLY if they KNOW and you refuse to leave.

I keep hearing how hard it is to carry in Ohio, but I just don't see it. I carry EVERY day.

MX-5, don't get your hopes up. That same bill passed last year but was vetoed by Governor Kaine, who is still in office.

As for the suggestion to carry on ABC premises, you'd not only be committing a class 1 misdemeanor (up to 12 months and/or a $2500 fine), but also be making it certain that your CHP would be revoked.

I ran into the same issue recently. I took my gun out while inside the passenger area, concealed it in the pasenger area, and did the reverse when I finished eating. Clumsy and less safe than I prefer (since I was manipulating my gun in a relatively enclosed space and trying to keep it below the level of the windows) but it worked.

I left my IWB holster on. Wearing it empty inside an ABC site is NOT illegal.

I feel that displaying it briefly by putting it in the trunk is not brandishing, but I also don't want to advertise that I have a gun at all.

Real class act.... One more for you..
Some how you seem to think that whatever pronouncement you make on countless posts, like this one; gives some finality to the discussion.
Instead of backpedaling on a stupid, spur of the moment reply, like CC illegally; you just plow ahead thinking it will go away...Not so. How these Moderators let you get away with some of this droll sarcasm is beyond me...
I know what button to push....

I open carry daily.
Just take off your jacket and go in.
If people are freaked out and you are asked to remove your gun... is that really a place you want to be?
Personally, I dont give my money to places who openly and blatantly step on my 2A rights.
If I go into a place that is not posted... and is not on the "off limits" list... and something is said, we leave.
If the shopping cart is full, it is left with the person... If it is at a restaurant... we get up and walk out.
Why keep supporting the places that dont want "your kind" when there are plenty of other places who do.
And yes, I hope the CC in places that serve alcohol passes... even tho it doesnt effect me one way or the other.


Jim

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Big bullets leave big holes

Open carry in northern Virginia is likely to cause a "hue and cry" unless they decide you're a plainclothes cop. While it may be legal, it's not real bright-especially if we're talking about being in a licensed on-site premises.

Many years later I recall the look on a cashiers face when my sorting of change in my hand displayed a couple of .38 rounds to her.

Open carry may be technically legal, but that don't keep you from be arrested and held for a few days along with your new friends and new clothes while they decide what to do with you.

And I will have a nice payment from the agency that tries that.
VCDL does rather well on cases like this.


Jim

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Big bullets leave big holes

Then Virginia is unique in that regard.

One reason I moved here and joined VCDL...
To exercise my rights with as little infringement as possible.
I OC any time I leave the house and dont worry about being hassled over it.
I stopped in at my local police station, I know... police are the last people to ask about law... to ask their "opinion" on open carry.
They were enthusiastic about it... said they wish more people did it.
Makes me proud of my new home.


Jim

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Big bullets leave big holes

In GA we can carry into a restaurant that serves as long as we don't partake. If I know I am going to have a drink or two, I have my wife carry, as she is my designated driver any way.

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Creede Kid

Ever been patted down going into Outback? There's no metal detector either.

Judges also have sentencing discretion. You're not going to spend a year in a jail for CCW w/o a record for all practical purposes - if for no other reason than that there is probably no room for you. You're going to get yelled at and told not to do it again. Maybe if the DA hates you for some reason you'll pay a fine and have to spend a weekend or two picking up trash on the side of the road.

Shrug. I live in VA, I don't open carry, and I don't put a gun in my trunk. Folks are free to infer from that what they may.

My view mirrors Wyatt's. If there is no metal detector, no one to pat me down, and it isn't Federal time to carry some place. Well then I don't worry about it. That's me. Others can do what they want.

(I also installed Excel on an additional computer, have recorded movies off HBO, smoked closer than 50 ft to a store entrance, tossed old tires into the dumpster and engaged in similar dastardly criminal behaviours over the years...)

Yanno Gator, I cant help but like you after reading many of your posts.
A seriously common sense approach to most things.
That is sorely lacking in the world today.


Jim

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Big bullets leave big holes

Buenva Vista, VA ain't Fairfax County! Not that I'm picking on Fairfax, that's just an example-and a handy one since they got sued over their fee structure after Virginia went "shall issue". They lost

LOL

Hi, again. Just wanted to reply to a couple of comments. A few folks suggested that I not patronize places that don't like to see guns. And some suggested that they open carry and not worry about what other folks think.

I've chatted with the owner of the restaurant in question and don't think he has any problem with me carrying a handgun. But the issue is not with him. The issue is with the law and the other patrons. Whether the owner is gun friendly or not, the law says I cannot conceal carry. So if I go to another restaurant in Northern Virginia, there is no reason to think that open carrying there would be any different. Same issue.

On the "open carry and not worry about what others think," I have my own opinion. Just because a person has a right to read porno doesn't mean that they should sit in a schoolyard with young children running about and open the centerfold. While perhaps legal, it may be unnecessarily provocative. There are times and places for battles, and I don't think that a small, family restaurant in Northern Virginia is the place for making the point that I have a right to open carry a handgun. Also, I read somewhere (could be an urban myth) that to qualify as "open carry" in Virginia, a certain portion of the gun must be exposed. My concealed carry is a M36 Chief Special with a 1 7/8" barrel that I carry in a wasteband holster. When it's cold, I sometimes wear a sweatshirt. It's difficult to tuck the sweatshirt into my trousers, and the potential that the open carry suddenly will become concealed carry is not just paranoia. So as much as I approve of open carry, I don't think that that necessarily is the solution here.

I agree with Wyatt; carry anyway. If you're discreet, the worst thing that could happen is you draw and fire your weapon to prevent death or debilitating injury to you or another.

A better outcome than lamenting your handgun locked in the trunk, while under attack.

One packer's opinion. Do what works for you.

Where I live, brandishing means displaying the firearm to someone in a threatening manner, such as pointing it at them or showing it and threatening to use it on them. The fact that they saw your gun does not mean that you brandished it.