Parker or Fox shotgun?

I've been considering buying a used American made double gun. More than a few types to consider, however a later model Parker Trojan or a Fox Sterlingworth are whats been appealing to me.

I own a couple double barrels now, but they are old....old old! Like 1880's old. I need something with 2 3/4 chambers and homogenous steel barrels.

Excepting the Winchester 21, the Lefever, Baker, etc, I've pretty much narrowed my available choice(affordable choice) to a Parker gun or a Ansley H Fox. I'm personaly leaning towards a Fox Sterlingworth.

Anyone here familiar with the Parkers or Fox shotguns and the durability/servicability of these two brands?

Thanx, Stevie

Both very nice guns. I have never owned a Parker but I have been told that their internals are very complicated and that if they ever need work that it can be difficult to find someone capable of repairing. Having said that I have no idea if that is correct, just passing along info. that I was told. I have a Savage/Fox BSE 20 gauge that I enjoy alot.

I had a circa 1916 16g Fox Sterlingworth that I shot regularly in Cowboy Action matches. It was original condition and rather clumsy for *that* particular form of abuse....however, a local Fox fan admired it greatly and offered me *way* more $$$ than I had in it, so I was able to replace it with something more suited to that kind of use, and pocket the rest.

The older SxS have some great features, depending on *your* ideas and needs. I wouldn't hesitate for a second such something come along, on any American made unit.

I'm not a birder or trap shooter and have little exposure to whatever those pursuits might require.

They are both good guns. Be aware of the "drop" of the stock. The older Parker's are different/difficult to shoot as they don't fit like a more modern straighter stocked gun does.

Welcome to the forum!

I can’t tell you which is a better, but don’t rule out an L.C. Smith. It’s a true American sidelock and often quite affordable in the lower grades.




Parker Reproductions are lovely guns that compare favorably with the originals, but were made in Japan. It’s a lot of gun for the money.

S x S's

Another US company that used to make good side-by-sides was Ithaca. I had a 20-gauge when I was a teen for quail and dove. It shot very well, but I was small and it kicked the stuffing out of me. Very painful with the small butt and beaver forearm. You might want to check them out.

Ansley H. said his guns were " The Finest Gun in The World". I think he was correct at the time, but when Win. made the M21 Ansley H. had to go to the back of the bus. Larry

The Fox is much simpler inside than the Parker. Both are the same gun in themselves wether they carry a high grade or a low grade designation.

VH Parker is the most commonly seen low grade PArker, though the Trojan Grade was the least expensive grade made. Add a 'E' to the grade designation for ejectors (VHE).

Sterlingworth is the field grade of the Fox line, though it uses the same frame and internals as a top of the line F grade would. A Sterlingworth ejector gun used the same ejector mechanism, but did not use the external forearm latch of the 'graded guns' Instead, a small round steel escutcheon was inletted for the forend screw to threads into and a snap on forend latch was used.

Some early Sterlingworth models are called 'pin guns' as their frame hinge pin is set into a deep relief cut in the frame that looks like a Parker.
I think these are 1911/12 mfg guns and that the frames may have been left overs from the Baltimore Arms Co days that the Fox Co evolved from but I'm not completely sure on that. Sometimes a small premium for those pin guns is paid if in collectable condition.

Fox is easier to fix an 'off the face' gun than the Parker because of the simple hinge pin,,unless you're dealing with an ejector gun!
Parker uses a part called a 'roll joint' up front and is a complicated shaped hindge part making it nearly always necessary to work on the barrel hook to tighten up the works.

Stay away from either model with the single selective trigger unless you are absolutely, positively convinced by actual use that it is fit.

You will find some with a 'miller' installed SST. These are much simpler in design and are more reliable in most cases but both depend much on the installation acuracy of the dimention tollerance between the upper and lower tang. It must be maintained to a certain measurement and just a few .000" can make the difference between working and not.

Parker ejectors (V spring powered)are a pile of parts, fragile, small, some jigsaw shaped. The system works reliably when in tune though. Parker Repro parts will fit to repair,,sometimes with drop in, sometimes a bit of work. Parts are getting very hard to find. Originals are expensive.

Fox ejectors are simple (coil spring) and easier to work on. The weak link is a thin 'trip blade' housed in the front of the receiver, one on each side, that extends and then trips the ejector to working as the barrels are opened on the fired barrel. It can be damaged very easily.

All but the ealiest Parkers have a replaceable insert in the locking lug on the barrel. You can put a very thin shim underneath it and replace the pin to raise it up a couple of thousanths to tighten things up if needed, or replace w/ a higher bolt insert.

The Fox relies on a rotary bolt at the rear of the barrel rib extention to rotate and hook into a slot in it. The slot is a slightly tapered affair to take up wear (LC Smith uses the same).

When you're at the end of the wear line, it's rebuild time. Don't be tempted to do the blacksmith repair of punching the rotary bolt hook down a few 'thou. to take up the slack. It'll just make for a stuck top lever upon closing and a mess to fix.

Both guns are fairly kind to stock wood if the tang screws are kept tight. Older guns can get loose from wood shrinking, oil softening the wood, etc. They set back in the wood and develope splits at the back of the top tang. Fox develop splits on the sides of the ears of the stocks near the top also more than Parkers it seems.

Not many problems with loose ribs. Check carefully anyway. Parkers should have the wavy barrel matting just short of the end of the barrel....ending with a straight line cut accross the rib and a blank space of approx 1/16+" from that line to the muzzle. Lots of chopped barrels around.

Barrels touching,,or not,,at the muzzle,,is not a 100% true indication that the barrels have or have not been cut.

Sorry for the long post but just a few of the points that came to mind after fixing, restoring and upgrading these things for many years.

If you can find a Fox buy it. Those old shotguns were made to last and will outlive you if you take care of it. Most of the collectors and shooters of the older shotguns tell you to shoot only low brass loads and not the high brass loads for fear of damaging them. The jury is still out on that. But those old shotguns do pack quite a punch no matter what loads you shoot. My grandfather's old 12 ga Sterlingworth beat me up pretty good when I weighed about 110 pounds.

A Fox Sterlingworth or Newer Ithaca double seems easiest to find in servicable and presentable condition. And are closer to my price-range.

Don't want to even talk about Winchester Model 21 shotguns. Too pricy, most have single triggers, I want double triggers on my double gun.

I've seen some rickety Parker guns I could afford, but always something to put me off....like Damascus barrels....dents in the barrels....sawed off barrels, wood being crap, etc!

I want a Fox. At least I think I want a Fox. From my veiwpoint, a Sterlingworth is a good looking gun, has a decent reputation for simplicity and durability, from what I've seen advertised I can likely afford a good one.

Given the choice between a Parker Trojan and a Fox Sterlingworth in the same gauge and grade I'd choose the Fox. I used to collect US made 16ga sxs shotguns ironically the only one I kept is a Hunter Arms Fulton. The Hunter Arms guns tend to either be overlooked as inferior or billed as a LC Smith boxlock, neither of which is an accurate portrayal.

I have owned both Parker and Fox Sterlingworth shotguns, I believe you will find the Sterlingworth more to your liking. The Parker Trojan had a rather unattractive shape to the action and was devoid of any engraving. The Sterlingworth's action is shaped the way a shotgun action should be and has a little border engraving to embelish it. When dealing with vintage shotguns you always want to check the chamber length as some were short chambered. You also want modern "shootable" dimensions in the buttstock, drop of 1 1/2" X 2 1/2" is what you are lookinig for. It will be easier to find a Sterlingworth with good dimensions than a Trojan. About the only other thing that I can think of to tell you to check is that the barrel ribs have not come loose. You can check this by removing the barrels from the action and suspending them on your finger placed under the barrel lug. Tapping the barrels should produce a clear "ring", a dull thud means the rib(s) are loose somewhere. The top lever should also be to the right of center when the gun is closed, always hold the lever when closing never snap the gun closed.

I too would choose the Fox over the Parker Trojan.

Having said that, I would take a good LC Smith over either of them.

Good luck with your purchase,
Dave

A Fox, Ithaca NID, Lefever Nitro Special(Ithaca mfg-especially the A grade guns) are all good sturdy shooters. Some have better stock dimentions than others,,something you'll have to try yourself to see if it fits. I had a nice Fulton also, marked Worthington, and it was an excellent shotgun. A heavy shotgun but a reliable one. I shot it almost weekly for 2 years at skeet and trap before trading it off. Another one to consider as already mentioned.

I'll also add to take a look at bore dimentions if at all possible as alot of the older guns have had their bores honed out. Not all have been done to a dangerous limit but some have. Refinishing/blueing of barrels can thin them from the outside excessively as drawfiling is usually the first step most refinishers go to, necessary or not.

A pic attached is of a Parker 20ga Trojan set of barrels that let go in the left tube. The steel thickness is only approx .012/.015". That's very thin. An obstruction may also have been involved but the bores are oversized when mic'd also.

Also,, detecting a loose rib by ringing the barrels does work. However it may not tell you if there is a loose gap mid way in the rib. It is at it's best detecting a loose rib at the very ends of the rib where it can vibrate freely. But don't bypass using the trick in checking out the barrels, just visually check them very closely as well. Rapping the rib with your knuckle will also detect a loose one as it clicks against the barrel where it's loose.

Ithaca NID (ser#s 400,00's,,,Magnums--500,000's) will have modern chamber dimentions IIRC, the other makes will vary with the older ones having 'short chambers' (2 5/8' in 12 ga). This doesn't worry alot of the modern day shooters who put 'PROPER' loads through these older guns. Modern plastic hulls and wads pose little problems with the shorter chambers in the lower preasure range shells.
Push it, and you may have a problem, though these guns have been around in the modern shell age for a long time and have swallowed more than a few.
If anything I'd advise lengthening the forcing cone only, over lengthening the entire chamber.

The second pic is a 410 LC Smith that a rather well known 'smith worked on to repair the single trigger and safety problem. The trigger didn't work and the safety didn't hold on SAFE.
He 'fixed' it by removing the safety linkage completely! (took care of that problem),,the trigger still doesn't kick over to the second barrel.
The safety detent spring is freshly broken on left side too.
Wish he had kept the linkage......the barrels were hot blued too but I don't know who did that, at least no one will admit to it. A specialty grade 410,,,,,sad,,
I'll have to take the ribs off the barrels clean them up, polish, recut and resolder everything and then reblue.

Last is a look at a disasssembled Parker CHE. Lots of parts in there!
Many more than a Fox or Ithaca.

It's been polished and recut, wood is being refinished, barrels reblued etc. The small tray to the right inside the larger box is just the ejector parts alone. Lots of potential problems but this one is in exc mechanical condition for a 1908 gun.

Just a look at a few potential problems and a few more things to look for.