The Winchester 30-30's Use In Shootouts, Gunfights, And Manhunts. New Pics. In Reply

Various non fiction books I've read have the antagonists using the 30WCF to great effect. Too bad it was the bad guys in most cases.
"Albert Johnson" used a Savage 1899 in 30-30 with deadly accuracy when he was hunted down in Yukon Territory. Unfortunatley he was a phonomenal shot until he was finally killed. The Charles Bronson movie "Death Hunt" was a fictionalized depiction of this. In Joshua Tree on the Keys Ranch in the early 20th century, Keys neighbor shot at him with a handgun and he responded with a Remington Model 8 in 30 Remington. A rimless version of the 30-30- Winchester. And in this old photo of the "Willy Boy" manhunt in 1909, every posse member is carrying a Win. 94 and the 30WCF is mentioned constantly in the book when ammo is aquired by the posse. Willy Boy used the same gun. Some of these could be other calibers, of course.
I guess being such a popular saddle gun accounting for downing so much game, it was excellent for more serious endeavors such as described. Isn't the ballistics of the AK47 and SKS similiar to the 30-30? Below is a hard to see picture of the Willy Boy posse holding their rifles over his body after he shot himself with his last cartrdge. I have a .32 Special but I'm intrigued by this famous old cartridge that I neglected all these years because it is so common.

The Model 1894 was Tom Horn's weapon of choice when he was doing his hired killing in Wyoming before his trial and hanging. His was a rifle with a button mag if I recall. The outlaw Harry Tracy carried a Model 1894 and used one on his end when he was surrounded and shot (he later did himself in so he would not be captured). There was also a small and locally known shootout and gunfight in the Adirondack town of Indian Lake around 1936 when what was described as "big foot" turned out to be an African American man dressed in layers of furs and bundled up was shot and killed in a gunfight involving a few locals. At least one .30-30 was used.

In the last couple years, I have developed a fondness for lever action rifles that started by buying a 1980's vintage Winchester "Ranger" Model 94. Loved the fact that even during the worst of the ammunition shortage, I could always get a box of 30/30 ammo at Wal-Mart for $13....

Today I have two Winchester 94's in 30/30, the Ranger and a 1949 vintage "Pre-64". Just this morning I finished up my cast lead handload experiment that I started about a year ago. I can now cast and load my own 30/30 ammo with a 170 grain lead flat point gas check bullet for .06 cents per round, about the cost of .22 ammo.

I have given up altogether "Black Rifles", and plastic pistols. If it isn't made of wood and steel, I'm not interested. If it won't shoot cast lead bullets, I'm not interested.

And, I don't feel a bit undergunned, if I had to grab a rifle and head for the hills, my Winchester 30/30 would fill my need for gathering game and protection, cast lead bullets for small game, factory 170 grainers for deer and two legged predators.

The Marlins thus chambered were actually always the better gun, ironically enough. Save for issues with microgroove rifling and cast bullets.

The .30-30 was quite something when it came out. In the early years of the 20th century it would have been akin to the 6.5mm Grendel or 6.8 SPC today - something breaking new ground and fitting in a niche.

For a handy package at the ranges it was likely to be used at, a .30-30 lever gun made a lot of sense, still does in many parts of the country.

It's not really what one wants these days if you could help it. Lever guns aren't all that easy to fire prone (always a criticism, even in the way back days), are slow to load, and you can't (generally) use pointed bullets without a risk of magazine detonation. I've also never seen one with a flash hider, though I suppose such might exist.

Does such work at times? Sure. But it is sporting equipment pressed into service rather than a purpose built weapon. Same as you might win taking a baseball bat or golf club into a melee instead of a sword. Doesn't make it the best option.

No way to verify this as the teller of the tale wouldn't talk much about what happened, and all were gone by the time I got hold of the gun and the story.

My wife's Grand dad's brother went west to Montana around the turn of the last century.

He reputedly worked as a cowboy on the Montana/Wyoming border.

He returned home to Missouri unexpectedly and with little explanation. When queried by his brother about his adventures, he would only say that he got into some kind of a dust up out there and had to get out of the country quick.

He would never say anything more until the day he died.
This was about the time of some of the cattlemen/sheep-men squabbles and one has to wonder if he was somehow involved.



I wound up with the rifle. The bead front sight is nearly worn off from being carried in a saddle scabbard. The normal rear sight has been replaced with a simple non-adjustable folding blade with a white triangle below the notch.

The thing shoots plumb decent. I killed an antelope and a coyote with it.

Well, not about shootouts but TR was an early fan. Below is by John Taffin:

TR And The .30-30

The .30-30 first appeared in 1895 in the Winchester Model 1894. The first two chamberings, both black powder loads, were the .32-40 and .38-55 with the latter simply necked down to .30 caliber to arrive at the .30-30. It is always interesting to go back and find what those who were there when any particular cartridge first arrived and see what they had to say about it. The earliest record I can find of the .30-30 being used on game goes back to 1896 and my all-time hero Theodore Roosevelt. The time period places him in between his Dakota ranching years and the Spanish American War. Up to this time his favorite rifle had been the Winchester 1876 chambered in .45-75, so his use of the .30-30 comes in between his favorite American hunting rifle and the Big Medicine .405 Winchester he took to Africa after his years as president.

Roosevelt writing of hunting the "Prong-Buck," or as we now call it, the Pronghorn Antelope, says, "In the fall of 1896 I spent a fortnight on the range with the ranch wagon. I was using for the first time one of the then new small-caliber, smokeless-powder rifles, a .30-30-160 Winchester. I had a half-jacketed bullet, the butt being cased in hard metal, while the nose was of pure lead." Now this is basically the same .30-30 Winchester load being used by deer hunters for over a century and very few would ever consider either the round or a lever gun as an antelope rifle. However, everyone is not Theodore Roosevelt and even if he is my all-time hero he often used the spray and pray method of hunting as game was so abundant. Besides, he could not see very well and remember he was using open sights.

In 1893 Roosevelt was still using his .45-75 Winchester 1876 for antelope and tells of taking 10 shots, with three hitting their intended target, his first prongbuck. Iron sights, big slow moving black powder cartridge, and shooting running antelope out to 400 yards was normal. The hunting was for meat not trophies and antelope were the number one source of meat for him and his ranch hands. Three years later Roosevelt talks of using the .30-30 at 220 yards when he says, "They were starting as I raised my rifle, but the trajectory is very flat with the small-bore smokeless-powder weapons, and taking a coarse front sight I fired at a young buck which stood broadside to me. There was no smoke, and as the band raced away I saw him sag backward, the ball having broken his hip." Isn't it interesting how the .30-30 in its infant years was considered to have very flat trajectory? Of course this was before the .30-06 and the .300 H&H Magnum and later telescopic sights once again proving just about everything is relative.

After shooting at, and hitting a running antelope buck in the flank at a distance of 180 yards with the bullet coming out the opposite shoulder, Roosevelt relates the words of his companion Joe Ferris, "As we stood over him, Joe shook his head, and said, 'I guess that little .30-30 is the ace' and I told him I guess so too."

Seven revolution: it's not your grandpa's .30-.30 | Guns Magazine | Find Articles at BNET

The article, by the way, is primarily about a Hornady "squishy-tipped" spitzer bullet designed to be used in lever actions with magazine tubes. The ad copy: "All other lever loads are pointless!"

the more I shoot black rifles, the more I like my 1941 Model 94 that my grandfather bought my dad, and my dad gave to me. I killed my first deer, and both my brothers killed their first deer with it as well. It has never failed. It has ridden by my side in patrol cars, through the woods, protected my home...
It is without a doubt my favorite rifle....
I never felt undergunned....and 7 30-30 rounds will solve virtually any social situation anyone might encounter.....
I want my son to have this rifle, so I am going to buy another one...
I love a Model 94

Twice I could have been a victim to 30/30s but obvisely wasnt. The 1st time was back in 1953 when I was 12 and my 1st year deer hunting. I had a 20 gauge single shot iver johnson with a slug. It was the last hour of the last day of the season back home in wisconsin. Dad had placed me on the edge of a opening of a marshy area of some heavy brush with the road maybe a hundred yards away.
I saw a man walking up the road towards his parked car. He stopped, sheilded his eyes and seemed to be looking straight at me. He then raised his rifle and shot. At first I thought he might be shooting at a deer behind me. I could hear and see him working the lever and bullets were singing on each side of me! I didnt know what to do. I was a kid and probley unsure of myself at that age thinking all men were smarter than me or whatever. I just froze, still unsure if he was shooting at me or a deer nearby that I couldnt see. Finaly, probley after 6 or 7 shots he emptied as I heard him lever again once or twice without the gun going off. I stood up from the bush I had been sitting behind. The guy sprinted for his car down the road 50 yards or so. He threw his rifle in and scratched out. In wisconsin law was you had to case your gun. It was a huge no no to be caught with a gun uncased in your car. Had I seen this charactor close up I am sure I or my dad might have known him as we were about 6 or 7 miles from home.
The secound incident was in west virginnia in spring of 1964. I had a job that took me all over the states working a area from two to three months at a time and moveing on. I treated old wood utility poles for groundline decay under contract.
This story was almost like the movie, "Deliverance". I was following the power line through a woods in rough country. I came up to a fence and this backwoods type met me with a winchester 94. He asked me what I was doing and I told him I was working on the power poles. Wall, ya aint comeing over this fence! He obvisely was a moonshiner. I dont reckon I need to check those poles, sir!
I bought this 94 carbine new when I was 17 years old in 1958. I had a pad put on for a longer pull and a williams fool proof peep right after I bought it. I probley have killed 6 or so deer with it. Usualy I took it on hunts as a backup to my scoped bolts. I once shot a buck with it at over 200 yards on a fluke shot in a snow storm. I have never had to reset that peep sight in all these years!
The winchester 64 is a safe queen with about only a box through it. I bought it in about 1975 and it was made in 1952.

Great post Wyatt Burp. And everyone else as well.

When I first came to New Mexico I met a cowboy who's elk rifle was, for many years, a M94 in .30-30 in which he preferred the 150 grain Winchester hollowpoints. He said he would neck-shoot his elk.

I started big game hunting with a .30-30 [killed two whitetails] and ended up with more "sophisticated" rifles but always had a .30-30 around. Now I have a M94 "Trapper" without the safety. I intend to load up some 170 grain bullets and hunt deer some day.

There are all kinds of rifles for all kinds of game that the .30-30 is supposedly not adequate for. But it has killed everything on the North and South American continents, even perhaps Brown and Polar Bears. Something I wouldn't do.

In Denver's Museum of Natural History (they changed the name, but I wasn't asked), there are many dioramas. One of them contains a polar bear. As I recall, the Museum sent an expedition up north to get a polar bear for the Museum. When they arrived at an Eskimo village, they found a magnificent specimen that had been shot the day before by a 15-year-old girl (or young woman). She did the beastie in with one round from a .30-30 Winchester.

Interesting thread. Being Eastern born and bred and having lived in the Northeast for years (also I am not a hunter) I always think of the 30-30
as a "100 yard" gun and a "woodland" gun.

I belive the 30-30 is underestimated just because it is so old. People always seem to think "new" is better and expect more out of newer calibers. When I was young I probley thought that way too. Another old cartridge I have learned a lot of respect for is the 7X57. The .45 colt is another.

I have a Model 94 that I took my first buck with in 1953. It was made in 1941 & it's taken quite a few deer. Most of the blue is gone from the action but barrel is fine. Nearst buck I've taken was about 50 ft. And the furthest about 275 yards.

Here's my 1949 Winchester .30-30 posing with my 1941 tractor.



This is a 94AE with 24" barrel and replaced fore stock...shoots like a laser beam.



.44 magnum, but any excuse to post a picture works.

I killed my first deer with a .30-30, albeit with my super rare Winchester Model 54 bolt action. The deer went no where, it dropped like a stone. My grandfather hunted with a .30-30 from 1936 until 1994, using the same old Model 1894 lever action Winchester. I have owned at least six Model 94 Winchesters in .30-30 (had one in .25-35 and another in .38-55). I have seen deer shot with the .30-30 and drop right where they stand on many occasions. Here in the Adirondacks, nothing else is needed. While I see alot of .300 Win Mags and .338 Federals and even the .45-70, there is still the old .30-30 that refuses to let go under any circumstances.

It was written that Henry Short used one in the Oct 24, 1910 shooting of E.J. Watson at the Postmaster's dock at Chokoloskee, Fl.

Regards,

Tam 3

Here's some posse members from the "Willy Boy" chase in the Mojave desert in 1909. Note that the Indian Tracker carries a carbine scabbard on his hip. I faintly see a strap on his gun belt that might connect with his suspenders. The reason I find the 30-30 use interesting here is that in this area at this time the 1894 Win. seemed so popular, while the 95 is nowhere to be seen. Yet the Texas and Arizona rangers used mostly 95's during this period. Maybe because some of these posse members were ranchers and used their hunting/work guns. Oh. And fantastic responses, everybody.

Harry Tracy reportedly killed several people with a Winchester .30-30 on his last run. Might have killed seven, iirc.

White River Valley Museum

DESPERADO HARRY TRACY. - Free Online Library

Couldn't resist posting some pics of my Model 94's, the "Cowboy Assault Rifle"....

My Model 94 "Ranger" in survivalist mode, SKS sling, ten round ammo pouch on stock:



1949 vintage "Pre-64" Model 94:



Group photo:

most of these look alike but are still very interesting anyway. Here's my .32 Special (Wow! A big bore!) from aprox. 1948. It's in that group of post war years with no numbers avaliable. My dad gave it to me when I was around sixteen. Two of you have mentioned Harry Tracy. I forgot about him. He was worse than the guys I mentioned and was a deadly shot with one of these. Let's see more of your 94's!