I'm thinking about a Mosin Nagant. Likely a M44, but maybe not. Might get two or three just because they're cheap. Surplus ammo is pretty cheap, too. So what should I know? What should I stay away from, and what should I look for? What modifications are worthwhile? I'm really just thinking of plinking, but it would be nice if it were fairly accurate and fairly reliable.

So, whaddaya think?

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Insert short witty words here

You can't go wrong with a good Mosin Nagant rifle. 7.62x54r ammo isn't going anywhere, it's still used all over the former East Bloc and the Russian Federation, and surplus should be coming in for years.

I've been buying them for 8 years, my first rifle was an M38 I bought in 2002, and it turned into almost 40 more Mosins.....M91's, 91/30's, etc. I vastly favor the long rifles over the carbines.

You can stay as "basic" as you want with the refurbished rifles, or become an advanced collector looking for the rarer Finnish stuff. You can look for the different arsenals, receiver types, but IMO when it comes to the refurbs, one is as good as the next as long as the bore is in good shape.

I like the 91/30's myself, good balance, excellent accuracy. Look for one with a sharp bore and you should be good to go. I don't like counterbores, but they don't affect accuracy, in some cases can improve accuracy if it was done to fix a worn muzzle. I just don't like the look of a counterbored muzzle.

You can't wear out a Mosin, I have a 1942 Izhevsk 91/30 that I've been shooting for years and it's still as good as the day I got it.

I started out collecting them about eight years ago also. I have waaaay more of them than I need. I like the long rifles, but some of the carbines can be tack drivers. This is especially true of the 1891/59 I have. I have a couple of M38's that will give it a run for its money too. The carbines make great truck guns also.

De Oppressso liber

A Mosin is the bolt action equivalent of the AK47.......simply made, loose tolerances, very tough and hard to break. May not be the absolute most accurate rifle ever made, but not designed to be. Hitting a man sized target at 300 meters, with area fire out to 1,000 was good enough for the Soviet army. The Mosins are capable of excellent accuracy though.

People complain about the "lousy trigger" of the Mosin rifles, they sell all kinds of gimmicks to improve the trigger pull, but I don't bother with them. These are infantry rifles, not match rifles, and they shoot just fine as is.

The Mosin has everything a battle rifle needs and nothing it doesn't. It was designed for minimally intelligent conscript soldiers to be able to use and maintain, and to be "soldier proof", i.e. hard to break. Anyone who's been in the service knows soldiers are good at finding ways to break stuff........ I found a few 91/30's that had been buried in loose, dusty soil for a long time in Iraq and I am sure they would still have worked.

As was mentioned above, watch for the Finnish army captures as denoted by the letters SA enclosed in a box. Sometimes you'll see them at "normal" M-N prices. These will be the rifles, not the M44 carbines usually. Buy any and all Finnish marked if prices less than 150 percent of the common herd. Oh, and by a M44 just for the "whatthehellwasthat" factor at the range when you set it off.. preferably around dusk to enhance the fireball!

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Old paratrooper in NC

I've got a number of MNs and have accumulated them over thirty years.

The good thing about them is that they are cheap and plentiful. There really is nothing bad. They just are what they are. They are a rough and tumble, simple infantry rifle that is reliable and becoming available in ever better condition and quality.

What I need to do is buy some of the refurb 91/30 that are all over the place now. My 91/30s were purchased back when average to "beat all to ****" was the norm.

The first one I got was a 28/31 Finn. I didn't realize it when I bought it for about $100.00 nearly thirty years ago...but it one of the most desirable.

The M39s were the last ones built and they are truly an accurate rifle.

The M38 and M44 are esentially the same thing, just one has a bayonet and the other doesn't.

If you want a really old and historic one, I have a U.S. manufactured Westinghouse, M1891. The were manufacture for the Ruskie before the revolution and were even used by U.S. troops around WWI in Russia.

To add a little interest, the Chinese made their own copy of the M48. They are usually not the best quality....but they are interesting.

Today....go out and get one or more of the "new" refurbed M91/30s. These are an excellent bang for the buck.

There are some other "varieties" that are simply 91/30s that were cut down to be M38s and M44s. They are essentially the same....but what the heck....collectors love all the varieties.

I think at the "Big Tulsa Gunshow" in a couple of weeks, I just made take my own advice....again.

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G.P. Charlie

Surplus ammo is normally corrosive. Use Windex down the bore and in the action.

I have a M44 I shoot 203 grn softpoints in, and if I do my part with bad eyes and iron sights I get about 4 inches at 100 yards...I haven't blooded it yet in the deer woods, but I will one day.
If you get one....take it ALLLLL apart and clean it...and make sure it is clean...everywhere. There is a lot of info on the net...god luck and have fun with it

Luckily for us the Soviets cranked out millions of 91/30's, they are the cheapest Mosin right now. There were fewer M44's made, relatively, but they are still "common". I love how some dealers are asking $3-400 for refurb M44's now, saying they are "rare". Just because the fresh imports of M44's have stopped doesn't make them rare. I was seeing M44's for $60 back in 2001 or so, I just didn't buy many of them.

The Mosins are so cheap because most shooters don't find them "refined" enough and unfortunately many people buy them and hack them all to pieces to make them into cheap deer guns. They are often the cheapest gun at the gun show, and are bought as beaters and truck guns.

In 20 years 91/30 refurbs will still be cheap, there are just SO many of them out there. Imports are still coming in, and the refurbs will never be "collectible".

Now, the rarer stuff has shot up in price, again I recall seeing SA marked 91/30's and 91's at gun shows for $100, I bought a few of them. 10 years ago the SA marked Mosins were nothing special, it was "just another property mark" and then interest in the Winter War and Finnish Mosins went up and the SA stamp started to carry a premium.

Century used to have M91 and 91/30 U-Fix-Em's for $20 each, a lot of them just had cracked stocks. Those days are over.

Things change, 20 years ago Mosins were rare in this country, and collectors paid a premium for the Soviet rifles. Remington M91's were cheap years ago, because a lot of them never left the US and Bannerman bought a bunch of them and hacked them up, and converted some to 30-06.7.62x54r was an oddball round no one had heard of in the US, kind of like 7.62x39 was.......now the stuff is everywhere, along with rifles that fire it. Now a minty, matching Remington M91 with no SA stamp or import mark can bring over $1,500. An older guy told me he paid $700 for a non-refurb M44 in the 1980's, you just couldn't find many here, and most were Vietnam bringbacks.The gun market does strange things sometimes.

Hell of a rifle for the price. My common m91 built in 1944 with the spike bayonet is accurate and kicks like a mule. Use non-corrosive ammo or clean it immediately if non-corrosive ammo is used and the M-N will outlast us all. If you are interested there are M-N websites and one of my favorite gun books, "Collecting Classic Bolt Action Rifles" by Paul S. Scarla has a good long chapter on M-Ns. Have fun!

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Collecting and Shooting the Mosin-Nagant 1891/30 - HISTORY

A few issues ago , GUNS magazine did a shoot-out of the major WWII sniper rifles. US 1903A4 , 1903A1 , Brit No.4T , German ZF-41 Mauser and a Mosin Nagant.

The Mosin was the only rifle still printing anything that could be called groups at 700yds and beyond.

My favorite was the Finn M39. Very accurate and comfortable to shoot. Excellent sights, the front is adj for windage. You pay more for the Sako produced version but the VKT I had was just as accurate.
Don't loose the small brass shims used to tweek the bedding if you take it out of the wood.
With any of the M/N or variations, I'd avoid one with a counterbored muzzle if you can. Though they can be just as accurate as any other, there is no way to tell till you shoot it. If needed to repair,, it is more difficult than simply recrowning a standard bbl.
With so many of these around, with some searching you should have little problem finding a M/N in some version with a VG to excellent bore.

Ammo has gone up in price in last couple of years but the supply seems to be strong unlike some of the other milsurp calibers. Still a bargain for the centerfire rifle shooter.
Don't let the corrosive ammo thing bother you. Just clean it properly afterwards. It's corrosive primers,,not errosive ammo.
Boxer primed brass, components and dies available if you want to load for them and many do.

The safety on these rifles is a pain to use, I carry the rifle with an empty chamber, it's quicker to work the bolt than the safety. Only have 3 of these but am on my second case of ammo. You will enjoy any of the models that you get.

My son had one and says they make a fine deer rifle.

I picked up a M44 a couple of years ago. I can understand why some folks consider them (the carbines) good truck guns.

The M44 does make a pretty big BOOM and as the sun goes down, the muzzle flash can be pretty neat.

I passed on a very nice 1891/59 carbine a couple of years ago and still come across some Finn's in my neck of the woods.

M 44's have a little recoil to them.

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Proverbs 14:7

If you can, buy a case of them.

Can't be a bad investment.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

These rifles are today's equivalent of the inexpensive military rifles of the vaunted [and wonderful] "Good Old Days'' of the '50s and '60s. Second the motion on carrying a M-N with empty chamber, as the safeties on mine are a trial to use, as they require at minimum reasonable strength and non-slippery hand/glove to operate. Doesn't mean we should avoid using them at all...

Have/had various models. I take bayonets [mark them and store] off shooter M-44s and drift the front sight to correct lateral zero if needed. Carbine is lighter that way and no stab factor.

Buy and try a few kinds of true noncorrosive ammo, and you will find one that shoots well, I have found. [Or experiment with corrosive and rapid thorough cleaning.] A few of mine are superb shooters, with good triggers.

If you are handy with tools, it is often convenient when shopping to have a loose .310-.312 jacketed bullet to try in muzzle, and an empty new case with a few thousandths of tape over primer pocket to rough check headspace for approx No-Go. Or, better by far, go online and get full details and more sophisticated tools.

And carry with empty chamber, or fully master the safety.

Have fun,

Dyson

The Mosin-Nagants were Soviet Russia's main battle rifle during WWII, and were good enough to help win the war on Germany's Eastern Front. It's good to have one just as an example, but they are inexpensive, good shooters and surplus ammo is readily available. I'd look for bore condition, as most were fired with corrosive ammo. Other than that, look for matching part numbers. It would be hard to go wrong. The 7.62X54mm Rimmed ammo is equivalent to our .30-06 in power and range.

Mine is an 1891/30 model made in 1939 at the Tula Arsenal. A bit long and unwieldy at 48.5" overall, it still did the job. I have an original bayonet for it, as well.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Typo alert! 7.62x54R is what ya meant.
That's something a lot of people don't realize , or refuse to believe for some reason. And out of the long barrel of the 91/30 , the 154gr spitzer boattail bullet of the standard issue round is actually kicking the 30-06 butt.

The M-N action might seem a bit crude and homely , but legendary gunsmith and wildcatter P.O. Ackley did many blow up tests and the M-N proved to be one of the strongest bolt actions ever made.

My dyslexia at work - correction noted. Thanks!

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

The real bargain days on the Mosins were about 10 years ago. I bought 5 assorted Hungarian, Romanian and Polish M44s from Century in 2002 for $250. Over the next 3 or 4 years I acquired a couple dozen of them. I've parted with a few, but still have a half-dozen or so Finnish M39s, a handful of carbines (including a scout-mounted M38 with a Huber trigger that is my truck gun), a couple of 91-30s and a few thousand rounds of ammo. The Finn M39s are particularly nice guns, but 4 or 5 times the cost of a re-arsenal'ed 91-30. All are good shooters and still the most bang you can get for your buck. There are 2 or 3 forums and websites dedicated to the MN, so there's lots of good info out there. Check out gunsnammo dot com for a nice selection of the Finns.

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Rick, W0FG
CTR2 68-72

Strong, made from Russian steel and overbuilt to take lots of abuse. I also feel the grooves for the rifling are cut deeper to allow the rifle to still function with dirt, carbon, and crud in the bore and also to allow for more damage from rust and corrosive ammo.

I have Mosins with some very "frosty" bores and they still shoot great. Some of the Mausers I have with corroded bores send the bullets out the muzzle spinning.

A 91/30 or M44 with a few 1,000 rounds of good, brass case non-corrosive 7.62x54r wouldn't be a bad choice for a "zombie" rifle.

One word - Don't!
I've seen many a good men fall to the awful disease called Mosin-itis. You may think, "Hey, this is a great cheap gun I should buy one." I will say from experience that they are more addictive than nicotine, crack, meth and cheap hookers! You start with one, next you're looking for one from each year, then each arsenal, then each configuration...the 91/30, M-38, M-44, Finns, ex-snipers...AAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!

Go buy one (or a case) and a spam can of surplus ammo and enjoy!
The corrosive ammo uses potassium chlorate in the primer which will deposit a fine film of potassium chloride in the barrel. When packing up after shooting soak a couple of patches in water and run them down the barrel, wipe off the bolt face and your good, even if you don't clean your gun right away.

very well built rifles as the others have stated. dont forget that A LOT of these guns are still in use today by "poorer" militaries.

Boy, did you get that right! After ten years of therapy I'm nearly cured, but I still backslide in my mind, even if not in my wallet.

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Rick, W0FG
CTR2 68-72

I went and got my 03FFL before buying my first Mosin, a 1942 Tula arsenal round receiver from Classic Arms for a grand total of $96 including shipping. All numbers save for the magazine floorplate matched, the bore looks as if it had hardly been shot and the wood is in excellent condition. Their website just listed some "excellent" rated hex receiver 91/30's for the princely sum of $100, Rguns has a special on right now for $140 you get a 91/30 and a spam can of surplus ammo, $40 shipping. There are lots of other suppliers who are carrying them as well, you will pay varying amounts for condition and stock type.

The Chinese made a Type 53, which is identical to the M44 except for the wood used in the stock is Chu-wood, which tends to get a mushy feel after about 50 years, lol. I found their trigger to be slightly superior to the Russian ones, and swapped the one out of my shot-out 53 into my 91/30.

Just ordered a spam can from SGammo, 440 rounds for $90 shipped to my door.

If you buy one, you're also required to purchase a DVD of the movie, "Enemy at the Gates..."

I go to a public range and I have noticed that there are lot of shooters that have come from Eastern Europe and Russia. the common denominator is that they alll shoot Moison Nagant rifles. i get a chuckle out of it. Some of them have had military experience and have used real AKs and other weapons. They also love this country because they can own all the firearms they want and have a place to shoot. I also noticed that they have little prejudice towards other firearms and own many other types and brands... and some pretty expensive stuff to boot. I too will get a Moison Nagant. I have no US martial arms but do enjoy the European stuff and will add one of these too. Thanks for the good info about these rifles. I reload for my old rifles too.

My favorite is the M91, I must have over 10 of them..most are beaters I just use as range blasters, but I have some decent ones....I like long rifles and the rear sight is neat. Just don't expect to be clearing any rooms with them..... They still have that "old World Imperial Russian" feel to them, before corners started getting cut for production. The 91/30 is a cheaper to make update to the Dragoon rifle, which is basically a slightly shorter M91.

That's another symptom of Mosinitis, you can't give a number offhand of how many you have I know I have 30+ Mosins, maybe closer to 40, I'll have to count them tomorrow....

The accuracy with some of these are awesome, they just may surprise you.

Go to AIM Surplus Home and checkout the 91/30 russian mosins. I'd grab them all now. They also have the russian FMJ ammo in 7,62x54r too.

Go to Widener's Reloading and Shooting Supply INC and check out the $6 / 20rds 203gr soft point russian made barnaul ammo for hunting. The old mosins do make cheap game getters.

What's the difference between the hex receiver and the round? I guess the hex is supposed to be better, because it is more expensive, but why? Stronger? More rare?

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Insert short witty words here

The 'hex' recv'r is the older, original design. Later changed to the round style for easier quicker mfg'r.

Some say the 'hex' design is stronger,,but the strength of the receiver doesn't ever seem to be an issue.
There's are probably more round rec'vr M/Nagants around than 'hex' (actually octagon if they continued the flats all the way around the receiver ring).
Like octagon bbls on lever action rifles, they seem to be more popular with buyers.

Many models of these M/Nagants have been recycled/remade from other older ones. So you may find a reletively newer model with an older production 'hex' receiver.

Hex receivers suddenly became "disireable" when importers began charging a premium for them. When I started buying them there was no difference, I would go to gun shows and there would just be 91/30's in boxes piles up, you could pick whatever you wanted for $70. It was a case of bringing your own bore light, looking for one with good rifling and you were good........ Then "collectors" sprouted up and began sifting through and picking out the ex-Dragoons, hex receivers, the Tula rifles are supposed to be "better" (that remains debatable), dealers got wise and started charging more for these. When "shooters" looking for range rifles and cheap deer rifles gave way to "collectors" who had just seen Enemy at the Gates, prices started creeping up. There are a ton of "repro sniper" 91/30's on the market, since repro scopes and mounts are still made in Belarus and importers were grabbing standard 91/30's out of crates and slapping scopes on them.

It never mattered to me with the refurbs,what arsenal or year..... the first 91/30 I got was a '32 Izhevsk, about $70 at the SARCO showroom in NJ. It has a mint bore, that's why I got it, I could care less about the arsenal or year. People say the Tulas have better fit and finish, but my Izhevsk 1943 has no trouble hitting bowling pins at 200 yards.It's just that Izhevsk left the receivers rougher during wartime, while Tula continued to polish them. All of them are parts guns anyway, usually the only thing "Tula" on a Tula rifle is the receiver and barrel. One of my Izhevsk refurbs came with a Remington bolt in it, you just never know what you're gonna get.

Great, I find this thread AFTER I came home from a gunshow today,there were lots a dealers selling them for around $120, ammo for $6/20 but I did not not know enough about them to make a purchase. With the help of this thread I may have to go back and buy one in the morning.
One question, are you required to fill out the FFL paperwork in order to purchase them?

Vapa, yep, full paperwork required unless you have a C&R FFL.

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Old paratrooper in NC

Another question, is a M91/30 and a 1891/30 the same?

Yes. The Soviets never referred to the rifle as "1891/30". The original rifle was designated "the three-line rifle of 1891". That is the model we in the west refer to as the Model 1891. In 1924 a committee was formed to modernize the M1891, the result being the M91/30. More details here:
Mosin?Nagant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Rick, W0FG
CTR2 68-72

The real desirable M-Ns are the ones made by Remington and New England Westinghouse.

Short history; 1914-17 - Czarist Russia ordered millions from Rem and NEW, October revolution , Bolsheviks take over , crawfish the deal , Uncle Sam buys the rifles so makers don't go bankrupt, some go to Army for use as training rifles , some go to friendly nations (including USSR) , some go to surplus dealers , some go to DCM/CMP and get sold for as little as $2.50 new.

BUT , nobody wanted them! Many became wall hanger , even lamps.

Now a nice Rem or NEW M-N will fetch $750 or more.

Thanks for the link to Wikipedia, my fear now is that I am catching Mosinitis.....

I went back to the gunshow today, told them at the gate I was there yesterday and they let me in for free. I ended up buying a round reciever one for $119 OTD and he threw in 60 rounds of ammo. It sure is a slimy thing right now.

I haven't even had time to fire mine yet and I've had it for over two years! A refurb'd 1937 vintage Soviet made Mosin Nagant....no one wanted it because it was too big.
Got it and all the goodies REAL cheap!

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The Last Standing Knight

In late but I wanted to add to watch out for M44's that have the number "11" in an oval on top of the receiver ring. That indicates Polish manufacture and they are a cut above the Russian. A bunch came in 7-8 years ago and they were nicely done!

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Old paratrooper in NC

I've had quite a few of these great rifles go through my hands in the last couple of years and wish I'd kept them all!
My current Moisin is a 91/30, and despite it's length is just very nimble, and it shoots like nobodys business!
I had a M44 once and took down to a friends farm to help out thin out the local coyote population. He was so impressed wit it's accuracy (and report!) that he offered me $120 bucks for it! I let him have it for the price and through in what ammo I had, he carries said carbine in his truck, on his tractor and in his combine and has taken both coyote and fox with it.
I'm almost afraid to go down there with the long rifle, I figure he'll want that one too!
And I've always wanted a M38 carbine, they just look like a rifle should. Dale

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"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

Might seem long , but that was the standard back them. My M-N looks OK next to my Trapdoors , Krags and old Mausers.

I logged in a couple days ago and left a comment and tonite I wanted to see if there were any comments. None but that is alright because a M-N seems like even a better idea today. i will find one as it will fit in with my collection of European rifles. I personally think they have more flavor and allure than our stuff. Please dont send hate mail because of my opinion. Maybe an old 1917 Enfield or Springfield might just make it in. Again thanks for the history and info on them. I will read more. This is part of the fun of collecting.