Was interested in buying a Winchester Model 12 shotgun I saw recently.
This particular gun is a 16 gauge with a 30" full choke barrel and was
made around 1939. It is in real nice shape and all original as far as
wood and metal finish. Wondering what a fair selling price might be for
this gun?? Thanks!

First thing, since it is a prewar piece, it is likely the chamber is 2 9/16" and will need to be lengthened if it hasn't already- it should be checked before shooting. Myself, I like the lengthened chambers.

Also, if that piece was in this area, I'd make certain that it wasn't sleeved- most of those guns around here have been sleeved for turkey shoots. Can't hurt to check...

Hard to say without seeing it, but the 30" barrels bring a bit of a premium locally around this area- likely around $400 or so.

Just know there are many, many model 12's out there, and premiums should only be paid for pristine models, or the one you want or need to fill that spot in the collection.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

Thanks Andy G!
It is a marked as a 2 3/4" chamber on the barrel. Also, I don't think it has been sleeved, but I can ask the seller to check. Looks like a decent gun. He is asking $595 for it so we'll see.

That would be steep for my area unless it was factory new, even then it would sit for a while- there isn't a lot of movement on them right now at any price.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

The shop below has a large selection of Winchester 12 & 37 shotguns. John, the owner, is very knowledgeable about the guns.

John's Gun & Pawn
1870 Highway 441 N
Clayton, GA 30525-3037
(706) 782-1008

If you are looking for a shooter, make him an offer. I'd start at $475 and maybe go to $500 if it's in nice shape.
In the M12 they built the 16 Ga on a smaller frame than the 12 Ga, but a bit bigger than the 20 Ga. It makes for a very nice handling shotgun. I have a 16 Ga M12 with a 26" cylinder bore barrel. That thing is a death ray on Iowa pheasants, and it carries so nicely due to the fact it is lighter. I pick up one of my 12 Ga M12s and they feel like clubs in comparison.
I say buy it if the seller will deal. A good M12 will outlast you.
Jim

Quite honestly I would not pay more than $350 tops. I love 16's, but they are hard to sell if you need to and ammo aint on every shelf either.

In my area, the 16 ga is a slow mover and the 30" barrel would make it more so. Even in nice shape and having the correct 2 3/4" chamber I would be somewhere around $450.00 tops and most of that is because of the 30" barrel. A lot of 12 ga guns are slow movers because of that length barrel.
Oh and get ready for sticker shock on the 16 ga shells cause Walmart, Dicks and Academy Sports ain't got no deal on them, as my english teacher might say.

Thanks all! 16 gauge shells are a bit harder to come by these days, but you can still get them. I have used a 16 for years and think they are one of the best all-around shotguns for hunting. Light and easy to carry, tolerable recoil, good balance.

Ah, observe the regional influence- up here, 30"+ barrel lengths bring more. Many places, they bring less.

If it had a Poly-choke or Cutts on it- it's worth slightly more than a plug nickel. Sure, those things shoot just fine, but they make any fine shotgun repulsive and best, intolerable at worst. Internal choke tubes or sleeving on a vintage piece also make me turn away.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

16-g and 20-g model 12s were built on the same size frame.

I've been shooting a 16 Ga since I was a kid. Also had 3 Model 12's, 2 12 Ga. & a 16. Don't have 'em anymore. Using my old Mod. 24 16 Ga now. Bought it used in 1951.

As was the 28 ga.

Any model 12 built after 1927 had the longer 2 3/4" chambers. That is when Winchester lengthened all their 16 guage chambers.

This shotgun looks to be all original and in real nice shape for its age.
The owner said it works fine. Not a real collectors piece, but one you could take out and shoot and use in the woods. That's what I look for.

I've seen several earlier barrels put on later guns- likely by owners or gunsmiths. I always check unless marked on the barrel.

I prefer pumps with hammers myself.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

The Model 12 is always worth more if it has a rib...solid or vent, the rib always commands a premium. At the asking price I am going to guess and say it does not, but if you just want it to hunt with and dont care about having a rib then O.K. Next thing to check is wear. The problem with the Model 12 is that the entire gun locks up on about a 1/4" of steel pad on the end of the single action bar. This area is constantly under pressure and when working the action or firing the gun it just wears out. It should be kept wet with grease but it seems not many shooters did this, it was simply run dry. Easiest way to tell if it has alot of wear is to pump the gun {empty of course} and push up on the follower. If the bolt moves upward somewhere around 1/4 of an inch then she has alot of wear and is not too far from blowing open when fired...not exactly dangerous but not fun either. Usually a new {$100.00 or so} action bar will fix it. Or you can have a gunsmith familiar with Model 12's weld it up and refit the action bar.
All my life I remember hearing old timers talk about how the Model 12 "would never wear out" and "the more you shoot it the tighter it gets" but statements like this are just not true...the fact is the Model 12 was replaced by the 870 for this reason. Remington's big advertising slogan {for those old enough to remember} was all about "twin action bars" and there was something to this.
I have a rather extensive gun collection...Parker's, Lefever's, Foxes, L.C. Smith's, even a former U-Boat commanders Luger, but the one everyone wants to see is my 20ga Super Pigeon with B carved wood and number 5 engraving. Good luck with the Model 12.

I have to disagree with a few of your experences. I have 2 model 12 trap guns with over 1/2 million rounds through them and never had any problems with them "blowing the action open". I have never seen a model 12 that moved when you pushed the follower. The Remington model 870 didnt replace the model 12 because of the twin action bars. It took 12 years of production of the model 870 before the model 12 went away. The only advantages the Remington had over the model 12 were the were cheaper (also cheaper built), the were lighter because they used less steel and more cast mystery metal parts along with some stamped tin parts thrown in to boot, and it ability to quickly and cheaply change barrel (a good thing).

I own quite a few Model 12's and have for a long time. Without actually counting, there's gotta be at least 20 or more in my safe as well a couple of 42's and a few 1897's, 1901 and 1903. I've hunted with a Model 12 since I was a boy. No other shotgun comes up on target like a model 12. The only other shotgun that I've found that I can pick up and shoot like a Model 12 is my old Browning Superposed.

My oldest M12 is two very early 2nd year 20 gauges. Both these guns are nearing 100 years old and are still shooting. Also a first year 12 ga, 1914, and it's still going strong. I have a couple of 16 ga, one is very early with 2 9/16 chambers and the other 1948. The very early 20 ga has a 25" barrel and the early 16 ga has a 26" barrel. These little gems are more than a pleasure to shoot. Hell, I shoot Walmart specials in these guns like you never saw before.

Like someone already said, the 16 ga, 20 ga and the 28 ga are all built on the same frame. Unlike the 870, it's 16 ga is built on a 12 ga frame.

I even take my trap guns out bird hunting. They work fine. My favorite trap gun is one from 1937, solid rib barrel and my newest trap gun is 1963.

Anyways, the business about the M12 wearing out and the bolt flying open is not true. Pretty much can't wear out something that can be easily repaired or rebuilt. The nub on the end of the action slide presses the bolt up and into the locking notch that's in the top of the receiver, When that nub is not clean and lubricated, over the years the top of the nub will wear a tad causing the bolt to droop in the lock-up positon. To check for this, press up through the shell lifter with your middle finger to see if the bolt is locked up tight or if there's upward movement. When there's excessive upward movement the rear of the bolt is not fully contacting the surface of the lock-up notch in the top of the receiver. When the droop gets worse and a few thousand or so rounds, the lock-up notch gets rounded off.

To repair this is not difficult. Have a welder, with a mig, build up some weld on the top of the nub of the action slide. Blacksmith the lock-up notch back in shape by peening the metal. Reassemble and your good to go for another 20 or so years or more.

Another check point on a Model 12 is the takedown adjustment sleeve on the chamber end of the barrel. Take the gun down and you'll see the adjustment sleeve on the receiver extension. It's preferrable if the sleeve is still on the first or second notch. First notch, all the adjustment teeth will be to the left of the locking dog, looking at it with muzzle down.

That's it, I'm tired and going to bed. If you need more info on the Model 12, just ask and I'll help where I can/

Regards:
Rod

I as well own many model 12's and have studied them for years. You might be referring to the action bar problems after 1955 when Winchester was desperately trying to cut costs and changed the action bar to a cheaper design that could fail. Anyway it has been years since I tore into a model 12, examining every screw and part, your reply to the thread has got me wondering, so I quess I better refresh my knowledge base.

Interesting discussion of Model 12's. Thought you might enjoy some poor photos of an old warhorse. Not much finish left but sound mechanically.

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John. SWCA #1586

Wow! . . now that's a great example of the first week, of the first year M12. . I'm surprised Dave Riffle hasn't tried to obtain that one from you as it would sure fit in nice with his three first year guns, s/n . . 1, 40 & 44 on page 6, 8 & 9 of his book, "The Greatest Hammerless Repeating Shotgun Ever Built" . . "The Model 12 - 1912 to 1964".

For anyone has interest; there's a 3 digit, s/n 369, factory 2 barrel set, M12 for sale in Tucson AZ. The seller has quite a price tag on it but negotiating is half the fun. If anyone is interested, send me a pm, and I'll give you the contact.

Rod

Funny thing about Model 12's...young and old alike, everyones an expert, even the guys that have only ever shot one or two. I remember when I bought the very first one I ever had, $75.00 and I still have it. It would blow itself open no matter how tight or hard you tried to hold the forend forward. I posted the question online whether or not it was supposed to do this and got 26 replies. 13 said "nope, dont think so cause mine dont do that." and 13 said "yeah, that was what was so special about the Model 12 and what made it so fast to shoot." All 26 replies also went on to tell in detail how "you can hold the trigger in and pump the gun and it will fire when the bolt closes!!" They got that one 100% correct. I got the answer from AGI, the gunsmith named Roy Dunlap did a DVD on the Model 12 and addressed this exact issue. It's a good DVD for anyone looking to buy a Model 12 as he goes over all the things to check for in a used gun. He has a bad lisp so it's kinda like watching Sylvester the cat talk about guns. I have only ever bought {and restored} Model 12's, they are definately my favorite shotgun, never have sold one. Two interesting facts about the Model 12 that all these experts never relay...it was the first sucessful repeating shotgun made and every part was machined from solid steel billet up until 64 and then many were assembled after that with left over parts. All that said, get over it or not the 870 is still around and not only is the Model 12 long gone but so is the company that made it.

Some good imformation you have provided. In 25 years of collecting and studying model 12's this is the first time I ever heard of a model 12 "blowing open". Doesnt mean it doesnt happen simply because I never heard of it. What puzzles me is how a trap gun can be shot hundreds of thousands of rounds with no problems yet a field gun can be worn out. A typical trap gun is shot more in one season than a heavily used field gun is shot in 25 seasons. Got to get one of those DVD's and see what I have been missing.

The Model 12 is famous for a lot of things, but the bolt blow'n open after firing isn't one of them. I've read two of Roy Dunlaps books and don't recall reading about that. Also have read both Madis' and Riffle's Model 12 books, and again, no mention of bolts blowing open.

But, if one or both of the action slide lock springs are broken, a Model 12 can become difficult to lock the action. I had one of my trap guns break one of the springs and I had to turn the gun upside down for it to lock-up. It kept on shoot'n and didn't blow open.

The Model 12 has a safety feature that prevents the bolt from firing if it's not in full battery. If a gun is neglected and abused to the point where it has extreme bolt droop, the gun will not fire. The firing pin retractor is for this purpose. When the action is closed and the bolt is locked up into the lock up notch it presses the firing pin retractor down into the top of the bolt and allows the firing pin to drop.

As Robert said, holding the forearm forward releases the action so the gun will open when the action slide lock is pressed upward. The recoil from firing a shot does the same thing as holding the forearm forward and holding up on the slide lock release, so holding the forearm forward when shooting allows the action to open even easier. Don't confuse this with the bolt blowing open.

The Japanese made Model 12's, do not slam fire like the real ones do.

The 1897 Winchester shares quite a few of these features as well. Release the hammer and move the forearm forward and you'll hear a click, the action will now open.

You'll notice the patent dates on the right rear of the barrel, on pre-1941 Model 12's, share patent dates with the 1897 and the 1893 Winchester pump shotgun.



Here's a photo of one of my 1897's. It's a factory two barrel set from 1901.
You can see where T.C. Johnson got the front half of his Model 1912. They already had it with the 1897 takedown models.

Regards:
Rod

Thanks for the info. on the Model 12! No, this gun doesn't have a rib of any kind. The only small problem it had was that the carrier on the underside will stick in the "up" position occasionally. Owner said it feeds, fires, and ejects as it should. He took it to a gunsmith to have the carrier problem checked. We'll see what happens.

I hope this clears up the "bolt blowing open" issue. I am far from an expert but I have owned quite a few and have studied them for a quarter century, so it puzzled me that this was the first I heard of such a thing. Without using the proper terninoligy, what I call the slide safety, is where I as well believe the thread went awry. I have seen a few model 12's so worn that when you pointed the gun up and dry fired it you could see the slide safety no longer worked. This is how this amature expert determines how much a 12 has been used.

I don't consider myself an expert on the M12. My Dad bought me my M12 when I was 13, in 1960, so we could trapshoot and hunt together. Its a 12 ga., 30" barrel, full choke, ventillated rib, and Raybar sight. It has fired over 3/4 of a million rounds over the past 54 years, mostly north american and international trap, singles and doubles. I have hunted pheasant, goose and grouse with it. It has survived immersion in water, been buried in mud, and a host of other abuses. I have used light, med, and maximum loads in it and the only part that has needed to be replaced was the firing pin, which wore out once, and broke once. I field strip it and clean and oil it after every use. Never once has it "blown open". Best gun I ever had.
The only other gun that felt almost as good to shoot was my Browning Superposed O/U,which kicked like a mule. Remington arms tried to get me to shoot an 870TC, but if felt like a tin can by comparison to my M12.
I will hand down my M12 to my son.

The 16-gauge is regaining its popularity, and frankly, it has never fallen out of favor around where I live. Ammo is in fairly good supply as well.

All my Model 12s are 12-gauge, though, the oldest one going back to 1941. But mechanically, I've never had a problem with any of them. The Model 12 wasn't called "The Perfect Repeater" for nothing. They're extremely strong guns. Matter of fact, the Model 12 sort of killed itself off. All that machining from a block of steel and all that hand assembly and fitting...it just kind of priced itself out of the market to all but the most dedicated M12 fans. There's one in an LGS here...hand engraved, inlaid in gold, fancy walnut stock and forend...it's for sale for $13,000.

I think the price for the one you're looking at is a bit steep...there should be some wiggle room there. Then again, if you have the money and it's what you want, buy it and don't worry about resale value.

"Amateur expert"...I like that. I'll have to remember that one next time I hear someone mouthing off in an LGS or at a gun show about something they think they know. Yep, that one made me smile.

This thread is dear to me. I have 2 mdl. 12's....A 20 ga. from 1957 and my Dad's 12 ga. 2 bbl. set(32" solid rib/27" cyl.bore) that he gave me in 1978. I also have a near perfect 1897 with a 32" bbl.. These old guns are dear to me and I hunt with all of them. As far as a 12 or 97 blowing open....doesn't happen.

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S&W Accumulator

How good are the repro M-12's from Miroku? Both Browning and Winchester have imported them under their names. One that I saw was quite nice, a higher grade gun with some engraving and very nice wood. It was a 20 ga.

They are of high quality and should last as long as the older ones. My BIL has had one in 20 ga. for years.

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S&W Accumulator

Sorry, I don't know much about the Winchester model 12. Just that they always seemed to fit me just right and pointed great.

My grandfather use to tell me about his 16 ga. model 12 with a 30 inch full barrel that he swore was the tightest shooting, could kill a squirrel in the next county ,, best shotgun ever made.

Last year I took the 16 ga. model 12 , 28 inch barrel full choke that my father gave me to a local shoot. I think my grandfather may have been right. With what appears to be a 20 ga frame it has really nice lines, pattern seemed quite tight, and shot great.

Sweet little firearm , although the full choke is a bit tight for most of the stuff I do.

I also Own 2 Winchester Model 12's a Early 20 Ga. 1913 Production & a 50's Vintage 12 Ga 3" Marked For Super x & Super Speed,Plus a Browning Model 12 in 28 ga & A Winchester Model 42 .410, I haven't used the Older 20 much But The 3" I hunted with a fair amount & it throws 3" #1 Buckshot Really Well,With a Model 12 you can just feel the Quality when you use it,I also have a couple of Remington 870's & They are good quality well proven guns but they just don't feel like a Model 12

Mod 12s that have seen lots of use, like Trap shooting, can get worn
to the point of blowing open, if that's the proper term. The rear of the
bolt locks into a recess in the receiver and with lots of wear the
amount of contact between bolt and receiver can get less and less.
It happened to a guy I shot with and he had to get his gun completely
rebuilt. The condition of the recoil shoulder in the receiver is one
indication of wear.

I knew better than to open this thread. Now I'll be looking at M12s when I'm at a show, but then I usually look at a couple anyway. Maybe it's time I got one, heck they're cheaper than most Model 10 S&Ws.
I'm an Amatuer Expert. In here, I'm an amatuer, after listening to most guys behind a gun counter, I feel like an expert.
When someone who knows nothing about guns, asks me if I know anything about guns, I'd say, "I know a lot about guns."
In here, I know a little about guns. (but I'm always learning.)

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Wayne
Torn & Frayed

You sound a lot like me. I know a little bit about a lot of things, but I don't know a whole lot about anything. Model 12s have been my shotgun of choice my whole life. I have a late 1963 model 20 guage and an early 1940s war horse. It's a WWll army riot gun that's been sporterized on every corner. I have had this shotgun since 1954 and gave $55.00 for it at Motgomery Wards.

Did these come with a poly choke? Looking at one that has one, and trying to see if it is original, but can't find anything online.

The model 12 was introduced in 20 gauge, chambered for 2 1/2" shells and with 25" barrel in all chokes. The 12 gauge came along a couple of years later. I don't recall when the 16 gauge was introduced, but it originally had 2 9/16" chambers. Later the guns were made in 28 ga and 12 ga 3" versions. All except the 12 gauges were built on the 20 ga frame. I have owned all gauges and chamber lengths over the years, and still have and still have an early 20gauge, several 12's, including a 3", and a 20 ga Browning made gun. The Browning made gun was prone to jamming when operated rapidly until I replaced the trigger/hammer group with an original Winchester part. Now it works just fine. The early 29 gauge chambers can be opened out to 2 3/4" easily but the early 16 ga guns also require lengthening the ejector port a bit for use with all brands of shells. In some areas where trap shooting has been popular, it is difficult to find good original 12 gauge, long barrel guns in original condition because they were so popular at that sport. My early 20 gauge gun is the only one that I was ever able to down 5 wild quail on a covey rise with.

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Tom
1560

Since reading this about the m12 ,I remembered my dad had one I never shot it but dug it out of the safe , the barrel says mod 12 , 3inch ,the bolt is jeweled , any idea how old it might be ?

Mod 12s are pretty easy to date. The serial number is the key.

Look at the barrel and see if it is marked as to the choke.
If the barrel is choke marked it means the poly choke was
added after the gun left the factory. Guns that came with
a poly choke as original equipment had no choke marking
on the barrel.

Thank you Alwslate!

Great thread. all most a book

In my four years working in a large volume gunsmithing operation while attending college, we tuned and worked on many Win. M. 12s. They were mostly 12 ga. and about 30 to 40% were 20s and 16s. I don't recall ever seeing a 28 ga. We did have the occasional 12 ga. "Duck/Goose" gun that exhibited the wear fault of the action coming open on its own after firing. The cause was the extreme battering the high base duck/goose loads were giving to the locking lug recess in the frame by the bolt lockup. The solution was to have some delicate weld buildup done and then remachine the recess. Roy Dunlap or one of his students under his supervision usually did that for the owner of my shop. I do not ever remember ever seeing that condition exist in M 12s that were upland bird field guns. They just weren't subject to that continual extreme battering by the high base duck/goose loads. And, I never even heard of the possibility of that locking recess getting battered larger in any of the smaller calibers.

An aside: My Dad purchased a year old M 12/20ga. the week I was born in 1939. It was for me, but of course he used it until I started field hunting with him at the age of 11 or 12. He then bought a 16 ga. for himself. I watched his success with that 16 ga. on Quail and Chuckar and wanted to upgrade. Together we bought me a 16 ga. in 28" barrel with a modified choke. I wanted to shoot more than he wanted to buy 16 ga. ammo, so that led to me starting to reload 16 ga. shotshells at the age of 16. I have been reloading ever since. I still have the M12/20 ga. The stocks have been refinished a couple of times and I reblued the entire metal work just before leaving the Gunshop. .....

1946 made, lives by my bed. All one needs in a home protector.

Attached Images

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LIVE FROM THE DAWGHOUSE

Now that was some very good reading, but I do have a question.
What "House Brands" did Winchester make in the Model 12? I'm sure there were some but I can't find them when doing my search.

As stated there is no shortage of mdl 12"experts". I would feel safe to say that the serious collectors own the vast majority of them, especially the more valuable ones. The ones we see "flooding the market", have likely been picked over already, but people pass & good ones can pop up. I'm thinking you MIGHT have a heavy duck model, in a not as sought after gauge. No pics, grade/mdl unknown, I wouldn't venture a guess as to the value. I think they are a great example of US craftsmanship from days long gone, & hunt well to boot. As a NON mdl 12 expert, I think the price listed is either too high for the gauge, or too low if it happens to be in a more collectable grade/mdl/condition. ANY attempts to modify/alter/improve it will lower the value. DO MORE HOMEWORK, a Winchester mdl 12 forum would be a good start. Hope this helped & good luck.

I can't think of any by Winchester. Of course FN of Belgium cloned the M 12 in their Browning BPS. If anything, FN made it just a little more heavy duty. I had one in 12 ga., 30" bbl. with changeable chokes. I lived 20 miles NE of Denver on the point of a low hill directly in the flyway for Geese into a large lake. The Geese were normally too high when the clouds were high, but when the clouds were right on the deck the Geese flew under them sometimes within the 10+ yd. range of my 'Goose' gun. I got several on those days. ........