Hi everyone. I'm a n00b here, but it seems that 'Spanish' clones are talked about regularly.

Grandad recently handed me a revolver he inherited when his younger brother passed away. From the markings on the grip, it *appears* to be an Orbea Hermanos pistol. However, there are no makers marks, no caliber marks, not even a serial number.

Several places (yoke, face of cylinder) show three marks of a big "1" then a smaller "3" and a "0". There is also a weird circle with lines through it (imagine a '*' in a circle) under the grips. The grips themselves have the 'OH' mark, though I realize that's not necessarily proof positive of anything.

I have some pictures here:






Would love to know more about it. Value is not important, since it's something I intent to clean up and keep in the family.

Without caliber markings, I'm not sure the best way to figure out what it takes. The bore is less that .356 inches, so I'm guessing it's some .32-based chambering.

Thoughts? And thank you.

I haven't heard of Mexican copies. There may be some, and the Obregon shows that Mexicans can make firearms. They also made a copy of the Springfield '03 crossed wth Mauser M-98 features. I think it was their Type 36. But generally, their laws and limited facilities did not lend themselves to gunmaking. Spanish makers were usually more sophisticated. Some of their guns look pretty authentic. Some combine features of both Colt and S&W guns, a dead giveaway to the knowledgeable.

Copies from South America (Brazil and Peru, maybe Chile) usually don't look as well made as the better Spanish items, although Taurus guns now look pretty good. Older ones were more crude. Rossi has also made S&W- inspired arms, but they don't really look like a real S&W and all I've seen carry the Rossi name. Same for Taurus. I think I recall one Rossi that closely resembles the Model 36, but it was marked Rossi and one could tell the difference, if a knowledgeable buyer. These S&W copies were marketed mainly to people who might not be fully literate and whose gun knowledge was limited.

I'd ask a gunsmith to determine caliber and cartridge. My guess is that it's for the .32 Long or .32-20, if smaller than .38 Special.

I wouldn't fire it, but you probably want to to know the right ammo, just out of curiosity. If a gunsmith isn't near you or won't help, you can obtain ammo of the types named and see what fits. THIS IS NOT A SUGGESTION TO FIRE THAT AMMO OR ANY OTHER.

You can look for a copy of A.B. Zhuk's remarkable book that shows in very accurate line drawings what various guns look like. He includes many of these S&W copies. But with no name on the gun...

ADDED: I took another look at that logo and it could indeed mean Hermanos Orbea. (Orbea Bros.) I don't know their logos. But there is another caliber possibility. During WWI, many Spanish guns like this were chambered for the French 8mm revolver round, for the Model 1892 French service revolver. These were sold to France. A GI might well have brought one back. On the off chance that you can find that ammo, I think it's a prime suspect to fit.

Are these things of marginal quality/metallurgy, and hence the advice to not fire it (assuming I get the caliber issue worked out beforehand)?

You are correct: Spanish metallurgy of that time is suspect. Guns may be too soft or not have been properly heat-treated, if at all. Some are sound; many not. The French used their 8mm examples fpr many years, so I guess they worked okay.

After the Spanish Civil War in the 1930's, only three firms were allowed to make handguns: Astra, Star, and Llama (Gabillondo). The last also used the Ruby brand. Their guns were all sound, as far as I know, and the recent products before they went out of business are sometimes really good.

A very famous US gun writer bought a Llama Martial .357 in the 1970's and he told me that he was very impressed with it, although the cylinder needed re-timing. But that was often also a problem with S&W then. Poor QC. You can check for that issue before buying, of course.

I was loaned a Star Model B 9mm auto and liked it. Their M-30 and M-31 are very well regarded by those who've owned them. (The Model 28 had some flaws that needed tweaking. An acquaintance of mine tried three M-28's and all malfunctioned too much. The M-30 got the bugs out of the design.)

Thank you!

I took it by a shop that specializes in vintage and antique firearms. 32 S&W Long fits, but then we tried an 8mm "Lebel" (i.e. 8x27R, I think it was) - that fit like a glove, along with some antique French 8mm pistol ammo. They didn't have any 32 WCF on hand to try.

The bore measurements suggest it's chambered for the 8mm round, not an American .32 caliber bullet.

Pretty interesting stuff. The owner knew right off that it was a Spanish copy of a S&W 1905, and the original owner had a box of "32" ammo with it, which couldn't be found when the pistol came into my possession. It has been shot, but probably not in 30 years.

I think that is a Spanish copy of a S&W out of Eibar Spain.

One of the reasons that the "Marcas Registradas" appears on today's S&W's

Quite a bit of information on them on Google.

__________________
Eccentric old coot

Yeah, I've been Googling for about the last 24 hours. I'm trying to figure out the age of this pistol.

In the butt of the grip, there is a hole where a lanyard ring would mount. From other things I've read, that suggests the pistol was for a military contract (French, I guess). That would explain why the 8x27R round seems to fit best in the cylinder. That, in turn, would put it in the 1917-1918 era, if I understand things correctly.

Another source had suggested that post-WWI, guns may have been made with leftover parts and set up for American calibers, there being a larger market for firearms in the U.S. than Europe at the time.

In various places, the pistol is stamped with a big "1" and then a "3" and a "0". I don't know if the "3 0" indicates a year, but the stampings match on the frame, yoke, cylinder and under the grips.

It's really an Easter Egg hunt with this thing. It's pretty fun, and I appreciate all the info and advice folks have shared thus far!