I came across this revolver along with (2) 38 caliber officer specials and a M1911A1. I posted pics of the 1909. I called Colt and after speaking with the representative she was unable to locate the serial number from her system and wanted me to email pictures to her. The number on this gun is 5 digits and she kept telling me "it had to have 6 digits" Well it only has 5 as you can see in the pictures. They all match from the butt of the gun to the receiver/cyclinder etc. I'm just curious about it beyond what I have read about the model 1909 in general. And of course what everyone wants to know, the value of the firearm. I don't collect old guns as I am more of a modern tactical type of firearm person so any information is welcome. Thanks

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I am not a Colt guy, but that looks like a Colt New Service made for the US army as the model 1917, to go along with the S&W 1917. Both made to fill a need that wasn't able to be covered by the 1911 production numbers. It should be chambered for the 45 ACP.

That's actually a Colt US Army 1917. The number on the butt of the gun is the contract sequence number, not the serial number. The serial number is stamped on the frame surface that is exposed when you swing out the cylinder. It's usually about 150,000 higher, which would indeed generate a six digit serial number.

EDITED TO ADD: This identification is incorrect. See my later posts below based on better information about the gun's markings.

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David Wilson

again I don't know much about these guns but the butt of the gun says "US ARMY Model 1909" then the lantern then the numbers

would a model 1917 still say model 1909 on the firearm? The numbers on the butt portion match all the other numbers that are stamped on the other areas of the gun.

it has the R.A.C stamped on the upper right side of the frame and F.B. on the same side upper closer to the cyclinder. Not sure if that helps any to identify things.

the number on the butt of the gun is 88108 (I posted a pic of it)

when you pop open the cyclinder the number stamped on both parts, the frame and the cyclinder is also 88108 (I posted a pic of this as well)

perhaps these pictures are too small to read the numbers.

so the butt of the gun says
US
ARMY
Model
1909
(Lantern)
88
108

and both cylinder and frame have 88108 stamped on it

and the cylinder release lever has just the last 4 digits of 8108

Post a larger and clearer picture of the crane area with the cylinder open.

I couldn't read the 1909 in the photo of the butt inscriptions and just assumed it was a 1917. My apologies for leaping to a bad conclusion.

There was a 1909 model made for the Army and Navy that chambered .45 Colt. It was manufactured on the New Service frame (Colt's big frame). At this time I would expect the five digit number on the butt to be identical to the serial number of the gun. It was only with the 1917 (I believe) that the NS serial number sequence continued on the hidden frame surface while the contract-specific sequence number was stamped on the butt.

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David Wilson

Regardless of the model number stamped on the butt, that serial number would have come out of the Colt plant in 1915, to judge from the standard production tables.

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David Wilson

oh no no apology needed, I'm new to this forum and to posting pics and they are pretty small to see actual numbers. How can I post more pictures? It seems to have limited me to only 5 images.

He said it's the Model of 1909, which is chambered for .45 Colt, not ACP. The model should be marked on the butt, by the serial number. I suspect he saw that and that's why he posted that it's the M-1909. But the pics don't enlarge and I can't read the markings.

This gun is also a military variant of the New Service, made for use in the Phillipines, to stop Moros until the M-1911 could be refined and adopted. It was intended to do better than the weak .38 Long Colt could. That was weaker than the .38 Special.

Larger photos are needed.

I don't understand the frequent attitude here that one should only know about S&W's. Gun enthusiasts should know at least the basics about most famous brands and their major models.
We should certainly know the official US-issued handguns since before the Civil War.

BTW, the M-1909 was originally blued, not Parkerized. The M-1917 did have a dull gray finish, or did on all that I've seen. But many were refinished for issue in WW II. S&W M-1917's were blued.

Also, the barrel of the Colt M-1917 is tapered. The older M-1909 was not, and the extracror head had three lobes. These changes were mirrored in Colt's commercial production of the New Service. By 1928, they also rounded the cylinder release latch.

The Colt lady may not be well trained, but I'd like to see that serial number in larger scale. Larger pics overall would certainly estblish what you have.

We also need pics of the Officer's Model Match revolvers to comment on them. If you have the production dates right, the fixed sight version was then the Army Special, renamed Official Police about 1926.

And we'd love to see the M-1911A-1, in The Lounge section of the board, probably. Members can tell you a lot about it there, beyond what should be obvious. Some members are very knowedgable about the .45 autos.

I'm sorry again as I enlarged the number it is actually a 38108
not 88108 That first number appeared to be an 8 but it is in fact a 3.

There was a reference to a Lantern. ?? Are you trying to say lanyard ring?

BTW, USMC versions of the M-1909 had a more rounded butt than the Army model. If the Navy got any, I can't say. I don't think any were specifically marked for the Navy.

But sailors serving ashore in the Phillipines could certainly have been issued with Army or Marine guns.

I don't think issue of the M-1909 was service-wide. Meant mainly for duty in the Phillipnes, due to the famed stopping failures there of the .38.

The special ammo for the gun was loaded only by Frankford Arsenal, and it has a wider rim than commercial .45 Colt cartridges.

Oh: RAC= Rinaldo A. Carr, the official Army inspector.

again I am showing my ignorance, yes I am guessing it is a lanyard ring. I tried to repost a bigger image of the numbers, not sure if they ended up much larger then before. Doing these from images already taken on my phone so until I get home this evening I am limited to what I have on me now.

local gun shop told me it required "moon clips" as standard 45 ACP rounds simple fall down into the cylinder.

There certainly were a batch of Colt double action revolvers in .45 Colt caliber made for use in close quarters combat. They are marked on the butt as Models of 1909. They interest collectors because most are marked US Army but a few are Navy or Marine Corps. These revolvers won't work with 45ACP moonclips.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

it says
Model 1909 on the but
on the barrel it says COLT D.A. 45

.45 ACP is NOT the caliber of this gun. It's .45 Colt that will chamber properly. No clips are required or even near correct. He has your gun confused with the M1917 model. The early Colt 1917s did have bored-through chambers with no headspacing ridge in the chambers, and THESE are the ones that require half-moon or full-moon clips to properly chamber the .45 ACP.

John

__________________
- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

I took a lot of time to reply to you. Go read my danged posts!

THE GUN TAKES A WIDER RIMMED VERSION OF THE .45 COLT not .45 acp! THIS IS NOT A M-1917! CHANGE GUN STORES IF THEY KNOW THAT LITTLE.

Conventional .45 Colt may fit and may extract properly, but not the rimless .45 ACP. They are very different cartridges! The .45 Colt is the one originally adopted for use in the Single Action Army.

It is the similar M-1917 that takes half moon clips in .45 ACP.

yep that was my thinking too, nobody really seemed to know what it was or what it shot around my area, and that is why I am on here searching for answers.

This is a M 1909, as has been said. I just sold one in fact about a month ago, had a hard time parting with it as the 1909 has an interesting history.

As Texas Star said this gun is for 45 (Long) Colt, absolutely not for ACP or for moon clips. In fact the Army commissioned a slightly different cartridge for this gun b/c they found the length of the 45 Colt was such that the rounds wouldn't always fully eject as they wanted. They would wobble as they came out of the cylinder and loose connection with the ejector. Thus they had Springfield make a round that was a 45 Colt with a slightly larger rim. It was never commercially produced and 45 Colt works fine. The cylinder width etc. is all for the 45 Colt, the Army just wanted the rounds to hold onto the ejector a bit better.

AFAIK they are 5 digit serial numbers, mine was, 42xxx.

You should see "R.A.C" stamped on the right side of the frame as well as on the bottom of the grips if they are original. That is the stamp of the Army Ordnance Inspector, Renaldo A Carr. The barrel should be stamped United States Property. it will have the Colt mark on the left of the frame and I believe they all said DA 45 on the barrel as well.

Almost all of them went to the Philippines to fight the Moros, but a few hundred or so went to the Springfield Armory. Yours is in the serial number range to have served in the Philippines.

As has also been said the guns were asked for by the forces fighting the Moros as the standard 38s werent' stopping them. This is the Colt New Service revolver adopted as Model 1909. Only issued in the Philippines save those unissued and sent to Springfield.

FWIW it should have serials on the butt, crane but also on the cylinder thumb release iirc and marked on the insides of the grips as well. I can't remember if there's one on the cylinder or not.

I'd be interested in acquiring them. I'll drop you an email.

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Chuck M

With the corrected serial number, the standard production tables put manufacture in 1911.

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David Wilson

These were made as a stopgap measure (along with re-issuing Colt SAAs) between the Colt .38 DA revolvers of 1889-1905 and the 1911. They are relatively scarce here due to heavy overseas use (the Phillipine Insurrection). The .38 revolvers you mention may be its Colt predecessors.

It may be due to camera angle, but the barrel in photo #2 doesn't seem to be the standard 5.5"?

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

You have a comparatively rare revolver. Most of the Model 1909s were sent to the Philippines, and few returned in good condition. I have one, serial # 3686X, made in 1910. All have the straight bored-through chambers. 5-digit serial numbers are not unusual, and whoever you talked to at Colt is sadly mistaken. Here is a pic:



The easy way to distinguish the M1909 from the Colt M1917 is to look at the barrel. The 1909 barrel is straight from the muzzle to the frame. Although a few early 1917s were made this way, most have a distinctive flare in the barrel where the barrel meets the frame.

For comparison's sake, here is a Colt 1917 in .45 ACP, pictured with its .45 ACP ammo in half-moon clips. Note the flare at the rear of the barrel. This is an early one with the bored-through chambers (no headspacing ridge in the chambers).



Hope this helps.

John

__________________
- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

The history goes like this:

The .38 cartridge (not .38 Special) in service at the turn of the century was found lacking in power. The Army did some tests, known as the Thompson-LaGarde tests, and figured out that .45 was the caliber they wanted. The Army was also interested in going with the new fangled automatic pistol, and so started it's search for a .45 automatic.

Meanwhile, they hadn't bought any new .38's and they needed something to use as an interm sidearm. The Army had actually dug out what stocks of handguns it had in storage, even to include Single Action Colt 1873's and 1902's because it running out of pistols. The new automatic wasn't going to be ready fast enough, and since it was such new technology, the Army wasn't too sure it was going to pan out. So they bought Colt New Service revolvers in .45 Colt caliber as an interm weapon. It was standardized as the M1909.

The .45 Colt caliber would allow ammunition commanality with the other .45 Colts in service (the old 1873 and the 4,600 or so 1902 "Alaskan"). It was .45 caliber, so stopping power was not an issue. It could fire the same ammo as the older .45 revolvers, and was compatible with black powder loadings that may still be found in service. If the automatic didn't work out to be suitable for military use, the Army would be able to just buy more M1909's.

M1909's were delivered until September 1911, when the Army switched over to the M1911 automatic. Both the USN and USMC bought versions as well. They are marked with the respective service, instead of "US Army" on the butt. The USMC version has a different grip profile frame, and uses a particular "but number" different than the Colt serial number, though using the last digit as the last digit in the butt number. The Army guns use the same serial number on the butt as the Colt serial number.

The Army developed a specific case for this gun as well. While it could shoot any .45 Colt ammo, the New Service/M1909 extractor sometimes rides over the rim because the .45 Colt rim is so small. The Army made .45 Colt at Frankford Arsenal specifically for the M1909 that had a wider rim. Because of the wider rim it could only be used in the Single Action leaving alternating chambers empty. I guess the ammo interchangability thing wasn't as big a deal, since these would replace the SA's.

For WWI in 1917, the Colt New Service saw duty a second time as the M1917, this time in .45ACP. Alongside was the S&W M1917 revolver in the same chambering.

Chuck-

Please see my earlier posts, where I told him this info. And you misspelled Rinaldo A. Carr's first name. Also, it was Frankford Arsenal, not Springfield, that loaded the now rare M-1909 .45 Colt ammo.

I think these guns are worth quite a bit more than the more common M-1917.

Frankly, I think it is a historical privilege to own one of these, and I wouldn't sell it unless I really needed the money. He shouldn't sell it until he checks on prices.


I'm going to make a cup of tea and see if I can get over that bit about a "Lantern." At this point, I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry about that.

For those who don't know, that thingy in the butt of the gun is called a lanyard ring or lanyard swivel, and it's to attach a cord called a lanyard, to connect the gun to you so you won't drop or lose it in the dark or if wounded. A "Lantern" is a light source, lit so you won't fall in the dark in the first place. Coleman is a famous brand of lantern.

I'm sorry for the sarcasm. I try to be patient, but this has been a stressful day, and that bit just got to me...Please excuse my venting. The tea will help. Twining's Irish Breakfast, a blend of fine tea from the Assam region of NE India. People of my ancestral ethnicity often try to fix matters with a cup of tea. For me, it usually works.

BTW, I once owned a .45 Colt New Service made in the mid 1930's. It was VERY accurate and I had no trouble extracing modern .45 Colt cases, but the rim diameter has been slightly widened over the years. However, both NYSP and RCMP used these guns in .45 Colt for decades and neither seems to have had extraction problems with the small case rims. But the Army wanted to be extra sure, so designed the M-1909 cartridge. The ammo is hard to find and is quite collectible.

Paladin said that normal .45 Colt works in the M-1909, and I bet he's right, as he usually is. I've handled a few M-1909's, but never shot one. I have owned both that commercial New Service just mentioned and a Colt M-1917. They were good guns, apart from Colt's cylinder timing needing more frequent service than did S&W guns.

Someone else, please post about .45 Auto Rim ammo. I need to go.

The Frankfort Arsenal ammo loaded for these guns is called 45 US. It uses a Scofield length case with a 45 Colt seized rim, along with a 230 semi-round nosed bullet (my sample is from 1917 and is jacketed, but I believe earlier production was soft lead.) The velocity was 830 feet per second. (Yes Colonel Thompson copied this as the specs for the 45ACP in 1909) The 45 US could be used in any 45 rimmed revolver the Army ever issued, the idea was to streamline the supply chain. Remember Gen. George Patton carried a SAA in WWII. Some SAA's and this ammo were issued for the Mexican Boarder campaign as well as 1909's and 1911's. Ivan

What are the odds? There's one just like it in the classifieds.

__________________
Dum vivo cano

yes the barrel has colt D.A. 45
yes it has united states property on the other side of the barrel
yes it has R.A.C. stamped on the frame
yes it has F.B. stamped on the frame
yes it has the serial # on the butt of the handle, inside of the frame when you drop the cylinder out, on the cylinder crane, and the last 4 digits of it on the cylinder release lever

texas star,

As I stated from the beginning I don't know much of anything about these type of firearms, as being a ER medical professional I am sure you don't know a lot about saving someones life when they fly in the door with a gunshot wound. That is my sarcasm for you. :-)
My point being calling that a "lantern" isn't showing that I am ignorant man just that I simply don't and haven't researched and had an interest in it until now. But I can see how it can hit you wrong when a rookie like myself makes these type of comments as it does the same for me when my wife turns on "scrubs" or "greys anatomy" as these shows are so far off from the real world medical field and I end up verbally correcting the TV. So I "get ya" and I am not offended by your comments but actually appreciate your honesty and compassion towards these guns. It is nice to see that and enjoy your tea.

If you'll look at the photos that Paladin kindly took time out of his day to post, you'll see that the extractor rod head has the three lobes that I mentioned earlier. Note that the M-1917 shown has just two lobes there. He echoed my comment about the barrel taper, too. That is apparent in those photos.

I think this (extractor rod head) was a cost- cutting measure, but also probably provided a longer extractor rod stroke. The New Service chambered long ctgs., like the .45 Colt, .44-40, .38-40, etc., and the longer extractor stroke would help to eject empty cases.

I do not have either vintage of New Service on hand. Will Paladin or someone else please see if the two-lobed extractor actually allows a longer stroke?

I've never seen that discussed, but it wouldn't surprise me, if it's so.

Well, Like I said, I said, I'm not a Colt guy, but was at least trying to help. No need for you to come off so rude towards others like you did, bad day or not. He said he wasn't sure what he had, so I wasn't sure that he had posted the right model number since you can't really read the numbers in his pics, at least you couldn't when I posted earlier.

I'm not sure if the highlighted line in your post above that I quoted was directed towards me for sure, but since you quoted me, I am guessing it was.

I like any gun , from any era, and am not new to the gun world by any stretch, but I don't know everything about all of them. I doubt anyone does. That said, I do appreciate the education about these particular guns.

Try to relax and have a nice evening with that cup o tea.

I thought that lantern thingee on the handle was a bottle opener.

it's not a bottle opener?!?!?! The guy at the 7-eleven told me it was.....

hmmmm...... hope the mt. dew residue on the grip doesn't hurt the value.

seriously though, my post wasn't meant to stir up frustrations or any battle of the knowledge so please lets not make into that. I do have more knowledge about the firearm now, so thank you for that. Now to the curious side of me that is interested in the value of this lantern thingy-ma-bob type gun that I have aquired. Not that I am super eager to sell or trade it but it always nice to know what a gun is worth. I paid $1000 for all 4 guns, the M1911A1, the (2) 38 officer specials, and the model 1909. Obviously I got a great deal and even I was aware of the good deal in hand before I even researched them. So if anyone has any recent auctions or ideas of price please share.

Thanks

Ok, the photo of the butt opened up larger now than it did earlier today. The number is 38XXX rather than 88XXX. And, the bottom of "1909" is plainly visible. I couldn't make it out a while ago.

The other photos aren't really opening up very large but it sure appears to be the "real deal" Model 1909.

The Model 1909 is not very common. There's a lot of collecting pressure on the Model 1909 and values are pretty high. It's desirable both from Colt collecting and U.S. military arms collecting perspectives. Lots of the Model 1909 contract guns saw service in the Philippines and ended up with poor surface finishes. Even so, they seem to start around $650 and rapidly rise from there. Yours ain't half bad if it still has its original finish. If so then the Model 1909 was worth the $1000 purchase price for your entire haul.

I'm home now so I can actually look at the gun
Left side of barrel: COLT D. A. 45
right side: nothing
On top of the barrel it reads:
COLTS PT FA MFG CO HARTFORD CT U. S. A.
PATD Aug 5 1884 June 5 1900 July 4 1905
It has R.A.C on the bottom of one wooden grip, on the upper right side of the frame, on the cylinder if you pop it out across the top where you insert a round
It has a F.B. stamped on the right upper frame near the cylinder, a faded colt symbol on the right upper frame on the cylinder release lever it has a K stamped on the side and 8108 on the end, on the bottom of the grip frame it says U. S. Army Model 1909 with the lanyard then 38 108, then when you open the cylinder it has the number 38108 with a Z stamped on the frame portion and a 38108 on the cylinder arm

"I do not have either vintage of New Service on hand. Will Paladin or someone else please see if the two-lobed extractor actually allows a longer stroke?"


Back from the safe.

The two-lobed ejector rod head of the Model 1917 does allow a longer stroke than does the three-lobed ejector rod head found on the Model 1909. On the Model 1909, the exposed portion of the ejector rod between the rear of the ejector rod head and the front of the crane is 21/32-inches long. When the ejector rod is pushed fully to the rear, the underside of the extractor star is obviously a corresponding 21/32-inches from the cylinder face as measured from under the extractor star recess to the underside of the extractor star.

For the Model 1917 the measurement in both locations is 27/32-inch.

Odd to my way of thinking since the short .45 ACP (or .45 Auto Rim) cases may be easily flipped out of their chambers while the longer .45 Colt cases could really use a fuller stroke than is offered by the design.

errn1957;

Thanks for initially posting about your new acquisition. I got confused over the thread which is now apparently merged with another I hadn't seen.

You've got a pretty good revolver there. Historically significant and collectible along with being a dandy shooter chambered for a really good cartridge to boot. What's not to like? It's arguably superior to most modern handguns.

Somehow this reminds me of the wrap-up of an amphibious war game I was once a part of. The Colonel in charge, Steel, was his name, asked if anybody had any input on how the war game could be improved. A Navy ensign raised his hand and said that he would like to see a little more ship to shore play included, rather than just crossing the beach and inland fighting. The Colonel ripped into him like nobody's business, it was really unbelievable. The bottom line was, how could this ensign waste our time with such a stupid suggestion? We all stood there stunned, not knowing what had just happened. The Colonel, without missing a beat said, "Any other suggestions?" True story.

I posted new photos now that I'm home and included photos of the 38's and the Remington Rand 1911 too.

That's why I referenced and credited you. I was agreeing in support b/c there had been some confusion about the chambering of the gun and if it was a 1909/1917.

I did want to add for his info that the RAC (OK I misspelled his name, it's been a month since I looked at it) would also be stamped on the butt of the grips and they can be checked for serial matching as well on the inside. That's important to the value of the gun as you know, I was just dumping all the info I had on it still stored in my head. Some of it was duplicate but that was meant as agreeing, not stepping on toes.

They're on average worth more than a 1917. They run from about $650 to $850 then up to $1K for exceptional condition. Tough to get them up to $1K though, few are still in that condition. $650-$850 is 90% of the market in them at present, online pricing.

As for selling it, it all depends on what you care to collect, if anything. It's not like selling it is sending it to a scrap yard, you're just selling it to someone who may appreciate that particular piece more. Anyone willing to pay market price for these kinds of pieces will appreciate them, thus there's little harm in selling it if you'd rather have something else, or just have the cash in the bank.

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Chuck M

Nicely put
Yes as many on here would gasp at this next comment but I would rather add another AR to my collection over a model 1909 revolver. But again that's me and what I am into. The one gentleman will need another cup of tea after reading this last post. Lol

And there's no reason to apologize for that.

I have a FN Herstal 1922 issued to the US Zone Railway Police in W Germany. Cool piece, neat history, and I'm running it in my auction this Friday. Why? B/c while I appreciate it, whoever buys it will also appreciate it and probably a good deal more than me. That's how the free market works, we exchange something we don't value as much for something we value more.

Wherever the 1909 and the 1917s find a home they will be appreciated, you'll enjoy the AR or whatever you got with the money from the sale, everyone is better off.

The Free Market can be a beautiful thing.

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Chuck M

Bryan-

The extractor rod head was changed in the commercial New Service line, too, and Army versions just used the rod of the time of manufacture.

That's because many of the rounds for which the NS was chambered are pretty long to be fully extracted by the shorter rod. Other than the M-1917, relatively few NS's were made in .45 ACP/Auto Rim. They were listed, but I doubt they sold a lot of them. But they sold a lot in .45 Colt, .44-40, .38-40, etc. And it was chambered in .357 Magnum in the 1930's. That's pretty long, too, compared to auto pistol cartridges.

errn1957: There is good coverage of the Model 1909, including serial number ranges, in Bob Murphy's little book "Colt New Service Revolvers". The Navy got some, and are marked Navy on the butt; they're a lot scarcer than those marked US Army. The USMC got some too: theirs have a birdshead grip and the grips are checkered instead of smooth; very rare and much sought after.

The 1909 holster is identical to the M 1917 except for the date. It looks like a left handed holster, but is meant to be worn, cavalry fashion, butt forward on the right hip. Try your pistol in a holster before you buy it; I have a 1917 holster that will take the S&W 1917, but has shrunk enough that the Colt 1917, on the larger, New Service frame, won't fit.

The M-1909 cartridges loaded by Frankford arsenal were .45Colt length but with a much wider rim. They were loaded with 8.2gr RSQ powder and capped with a 250gr pointed rnd nosed bullet with a small flat point, much like a WW or remington factory load. Muzzle velocity was approximately 700fps. This ammo was never loaded commercially. All rimmed .45 rnds in U.S. inventory manufactured for colt and S&W single action revolvers could be fired in the M1909 revolvers.

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

The pre 1905 New Service style frame revolvers had the short 2 lobe extractor rod head on them IIRC.
When the frame contour was changed in 1905, the 3 lobe rod head seems to appear with it. Always some exceptions of course.
I think it went back to the old style 2 lobe during WW1 w/the 1917 model, and stayed that way till discontinued.
FWIW in all this.

Nice 1909 Colt.
I had #47724 at one time. Beautiful condition. Got traded for a 1915mfg Gov't issue Colt 1911. That's gone too.
You never own anything forever.

Here's a link to me shooting the M1911A1
Like I said my training and passion are on a more tactical side then historic side. Each to their own.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvLy...e_gdata_player

2152hq

Now's your chance to own another 1909 :-)

Take a look at the comparison pictures of the M1909 and the M1917. Although they are not to scale, it's apparent that the shank of the ejector rod is actually longer on the M1917, giving that revolver an extraction advantage over the M1909. I suspect both rods are actually the same length (that makes sense to prevent an inventory problem), but since the longer knurled head on the 1909 extends farther down the shank, that limits the stroke by a fraction of an inch.

John

__________________
- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -