I visited one of my favorite local haunts yesterday and spent some time browsing the shotguns. I'm not really a shotgun person, but wanted a classic Winchester-either a model 97 or Model 12. When I mentioned this, the gun below came out from the back.

I hadn't planned on buying anything yesterday, but could pass this one up for $160.

Great buy!

If you had passed on it at that price it would have been grounds for a mental inquest warrant.

I've never seen a 97 in any gauge but twelve, as far as I can recall.

__________________
Oh well, what the hell.

You got a great deal there.. I paid more for my 16 and not as good a condition.., I don't believe there were many 16 gauge models made..If you're going to shoot it, you might want to check the chamber dimension as early models were 2 9/16 inches in length....Any good 'smith' can lengthen that to 2 3/4 inches for modern ammo..

That was a sweet deal provided the gun works correctly. I paid $300 a couple of years ago for a similar condition take down in 12 gauge. 16 gauge is getting some interest in Cowboy Action, especially for the woman folk.

Nice looking 1897. You don't see them in 16ga very much.
Great price too.

I think they started production of the 16s a couple years after the model 97 itself (in 12ga) came out. As with the 12s,,both were available in either plain steel or damascus bbl originally.

I don't know when the 16ga production stopped,,maybe WW2 ended it. 12ga 97's were made till 1957 and a few assembled after that.

From the pics of the sides, it looks like the shell stops have the 'buttons' on the outside of the frame. That'd be an 'E' series IIRC and at least a later 1920's,,into the 1930's production gun I think.
Good bet for a 2 3/4" chamber on a 16ga.

Many (most) short chambered 16's have digested crates of 2 3/4" ammo w/o any problems and the 97 doesn't require any ejection port mod if the chamber is lengthened anyway. So most of them have been shot w/ what ever has been available.

I'd have the forcing cone lengthened on a short chambered 16ga M97 and leave it at that,, instead of lengthening the chamber to 2 3/4 which would also further extend the forcing-cone.

Who ever does any chamber work on these (or M12) must remember that the chamber ring in the action (frame) is part of the chamber length.
It's about 1/4" in length.
If it's not figured in the total measurement,,simply reaming the dismounted bbl chamber itself to the 2 3/4" mark on the reamer will result in a 3 inch final length chamber..plus the new forcing cone the reamer has cut.
That leaves the bbl a little thin right where the you don't want it to be.

GREAT buy!
I love the M97 Winchesters. I have one in my safe. It was my late Fathers gun that he hunted pheasants with. I think he liked it because John Browning designed it. He designed the Winchester Highwall, which my Dad collected. It's a 12 gauge. I've taken it out a few times and shot some birds with it. Makes me feel like Dad is there with me, smiling.
I also really like the 16 Gauge. It is not as common in the '97s, and can often be bought at a much better price. I have a 16 Gauge M12 and love it.
I agree it may be a shorter chambered one. It says Model 1897. Not sure when they shortened it to model 97.
In any case, shoot it. That's what it was made for.
Jim

Thanks everyone for the responses. I was very happy to find the gun, especially for the price I did. I guess the deals still out there, even at the big box national chains

A friend has a 12 gauge 97, and the 16 gauge is noticeably smaller and lighter. I've never shot a 16 gauge, but most folks who have them seem to love them. Comparing this to my friends 12 gauge, I can definitely appreciate what many see in the 16 gauge.

The serial number is 497xxx, which several sources point toward being 1909-1910 production.

I realize that shotshell lengths are measured with the shell "open." With that said, I removed the barrel, and all of the shells I have on hand(Federal, Remington, and Winchester) drop into the chamber on the rim.

Everything seems to work fine, although the action is a bit stiff. I have a range trip planned on Friday, so I'm probably going to shoot it a little bit and the give it a full tear-down and cleaning.

Getting an 1897 in any "reasonable" shape for that low of a price is a deal with the way values took off due to their popularity with Cowboy Action shooting, and then add on that it's a "sweet 16"... WOW.

I have two 1897 12 Ga. takedowns bought 20+ years ago that I paid around $160 each back then.

Congrats!!

__________________
Conrad
SWCA #1830 SWHF #222

Excellent info. I've got a 1915 mfd. 16 ga. Model 1912 with 2 9/16" chambers and shoot either RST or B&P shells out of it. The RST is 2 1/2" and the B&P measure right at 2 9/16". Model 12s, even 2 3/4" examples, are known for hanging up certain shells on the corner of the ejection port. Both of those shells work perfectly in mine and I hunt with it a couple of times every year.

But yours is a Model 97--if you google "Model 97 manufacture date" you'll find good info and be able to date your gun with the serial number. Winchester went from 2 9/16" to 2 3/4" chambers in 1927.

Out of curiosity, what is the bbl length and marked choke?

Edit to say, I see you've updated with a mfg. date. If you want to stick with short shells, they are out there.

Have fun--that's a great old gun.

I haven't measured the barrel length-will try to do so and update. It's marked modified, although I haven't confirmed whether or not it still is. I wish that I had thought to ask them to check it with a choke gauge when I bought the gun(they had it out for some other guns I was looking at).

I took the gun to the range yesterday, and it shot great!

I had no issues with anything I shot through it. 2 3/4" shells fed and extracted with no problem. I even got a decent grouping with slugs at 25 yards.

The range I visited yesterday had these on the shelf



One box was full, and another missing a few shells. I couldn't resist firing off a few from the box missing a few shells. Looking at my fired shells, these appear to be paper on the inside and plastic on the outside.

Does anyone have any ideas on how old these shells are? I'm guessing 60s, but would like to know.

Those are probably from the postwar period, through the early 1950s. I think Remington started using the folded crimp in the mid-1950s. Yours has the rolled paper top wad. And the cases are paper, not plastic. Very few paper shells existed after the mid-1960s (Remington and Winchester went plastic), but Federal still loaded them for quite a while afterward, at least through the 1970's and as trap/skeet loads through the early 1990s.

I thought the cowboy action shooters snapped up all the 1897s. Nothing wrong with 16 gauge, but shells are a little difficult to find, and expensive. Taking up reloading is recommended if you plan to shoot much.

That is OLD SCHOOL COOL! Really nice. When I see one of those in a take down model I think of the hit man in the movie Bullitt with Steve McQueen, the Ford Mustang 390 GT, the Dodge Charger 440 R/T, and that amazing car chase.

Maybe 50's or early 60's on the shells I'd guess. Remington used that color box for a lot of different loads.
The roll crimped,paper shells were on the way out in the 60's giving way to the plastic hull and plastic shot wrapper & then plastic wad.
paper cases w/a star crimp were still loaded later.
Federal, and even Winchester loaded paper cases into the 'plastic' era.
I still run across a few Winchester high brass paper hulls once in a while.I run them thru the MEC with my regular load and they work just fine. I get about 5 or 6 loads from them befor I toss them though they still appear OK the base wads are getting a little ratty.

Paper cases were wax coated on the outside to water proof them.
Some paper cases were coated with a varnish type layer, seems foreign mfg ammo used a varnish type water proof coating a lot.
Either made them kind of shiny and slick looking.

The water proofing was only somewhat effective.
The shells would swell when damp or wet and wouldn't chamber easily (or at all) in most repeaters.
You could force them into your trusty H&R single shot or Folsom Arms SxS if you had to in most instances. They didn't always extract too easily either. Bolt actions it seems as though they were stuck in the chamber for good unless a ramrod of sorts was available.
Early hunting fun in the rain and snow...

They even sold a 'fired shell rejuvinator' for reloading the paper hulls. Worked best with the wax coated cases. Kinda just singed the varnished coated cases.
The tool was just an ironing rod that you plugged in and heated up.
Stick the mishapened, swollen, stepped on paper shell over the warmed up end of the tool that fit the inside of the case.
The old wax coating re-melted and soaked back into the now 'reformed back to round' casing. Let it cool of for a bit and it was ready to reload.
What fun!

Thanks for the info on the ones I have.

With regard to paper shells, Federal still makes them in 12 gauge. I actually picked up a box last week at-of all places-Walmart.



Now that I've learned about the Lee Load-All, I think that shot shell reloading will likely be my next project-the pay-off is definitely quick in 16 gauge. I already have a couple of good shotgun powders on hand, including several pounds of Unique and a small amount of PB.

local gunshop may not have 16 ga. wads, but they can be found. you got a great deal on that old gun. when those guns are sticky when used, usually they have a bunch of old oil that has congealed in the action.

Ballistic Products has everything you need for reloading 16 ga., wads, cases, etc. Google them. They are a good company to work with.

Also google the 16 Gauge Low Pressure Group. when you join they send you a lot of load data. It's an active group and they send new loads out to be pressure tested.

If you're going to shoot much I think you'd be happier if you went with a MEC instead of the Lee.

That's a beautiful shotgun, always wanted a 16ga Model 97. I love the forgotten 16 Gauge and do most all of the shotgun hunting with a Browning Sweet 16. You can get just about any load you want for 16ga and it's not that much more expensive than 12. Honestly, considering how much better my Browny patterns than my 870, its worth the few pennies extra. You can get slugs, buckshot (#1), game loads, premium hunting shot and even steel. If you figure to hunt with it, the best load I can recommend is Fiocchi Golden Pheasant #5s or #6s. It is nickel plated and can knock a squirrel flat at nearly 50 yards.

I think the 16 Ga is still popular in Europe. At least in the local stores, shells in 16 Ga. are scarce on their shelves, maybe a few boxes in shot sizes you don't want. I occasionally run across some at gun shows, and I once found a plastic bag with maybe 200 loose shells in it at a garage sale. I think I paid $10 for it. I didn't know Federal was still making paper shells. I went through Federal's plant about 10 years ago, and back then they were loading only plastic shells. I remember many competitive skeet shooters preferred the Federal paper shells, but I haven't shot skeet for over 20 years. Remington used to have a line of paper shotshells they sold mainly to duck hunters which were lacquer coated for better waterproofing - I think they were called "Arrow." They look sort of like shiny plastic.

A local big box store where I grocery shop, not WM, has a good
selection of 16 ga shells in their sporting goods dept. Game loads are
$1 a box higher than 12 or 20 ga. Slugs are $.50 higher per five pack.