So which of the old American made doubles are the toughest/best?

I have been wanting a Fox Sterlingworth...however an attempt to buy one last year fell apart. I've ended up with a rebuilt Parker Trojan...seems a great shotgun.

But really Fox, Parker, Lefever, Winchester 21, Ithaca....what's the better gun of the classics?

No best. All you mentioned will last forever is given resonable care. I've always liked the Parker.............BTW Here in my area there is lot of interest in the old Stevens 311......A good but plain jane double.

__________________
S&W Accumulator

The best needs more specific definition. LC Smith was the best sidelock. The Fox was the least complicated. The Ithaca NID will have the most modern dimensions and be the most compatible with modern ammunition. The Parker in my opinion is an overly complicated mouse trap that was so finely made it is robust in spite of itself. The Win 21 is so overbuilt that it is like trying to make a semi into a sportscar if you want a gamegun. My choice would be a pre 13 LC Smith Pigeon Gun with English stock, in 12 ga, double triggers, ejectors, 28" barrels and weigh no more than 7lbs. If you do a little investigating you'll find your "best" . Mark

Which is the best classic American double?

Parkers traditionally have cost the most, if that is any indication.

LC Smith guys like the fact they are true side locks.

Lefevers are top quality guns too and have a strong following. The Nitro Special is not the same as the old Lefever shotguns. It is a boxlock made after Lefever was purchased by the Ithaca gun company.

A H Fox guns were top quality boxlocks and the actions were nicely carved. A Fox Model B is not the same thing - they were high end Savage SxSs after the company was acquired by Savage.

Ithaca made several generations of boxlocks. The NID is probably the best version.

Remington also made some excellent SxSs. The 1894 could be had in several grades. They also made hammer guns in several grades and a budget boxlock called the Model 1900. These are my favorite classic American double, but they all have more drop than modern guns and take a while to get used to shooting.

The Winchester 21 is a classic American double, but it came later than most the other guns mentioned here. Rock solid and reliable, they also tend to be heavier than the field guns from other manufacturers. They have their own very strong following.


All these manufacturers made everything from bare bones budget guns to a high end fully engraved works of art. Grade and condition usually determine the value of the gun. A refinished gun is not the same as an original one.

As for which gun is toughest, many of these guns are now over 100 years old, so the newest, least used guns will probably have the most life left in them. If you are just looking for a tough double with classic lines, you may want to consider a Browning BSS from the 70s-80s or a Beretta SxS. The BSSs can be heavy in 12 gauge, but 20s aren't bad. The 20s also usually cost more.

__________________
My sgntr is mor thn 30 chrctrs

I have a early 70's western auto revelation 12ga sxs 30" barreled shotgun. I think Fox made it for western auto I'm not sure. I special ordered it at the time because of the 30" tubes. I hardly ever hunted with it or shot it. She sleeps in the safe now. The bluing is the old case harden look.

Recently I looked at the Parker shotguns but like pythons there priced out of sight.

Don't overlook the Sears Ted Williams guns too.

I've owned a Stevens 311 in 3" 20 gauge, 28" full and modified. Box lock, double triggers, extractors only. Very definitely blue-collar double, but strong and reliable. It balanced and swung well for me, and I took tons of game, mostly doves, with it. If you don't require fancy grade, they're good guns.

I can't hunt anymore, but I wish I still had mine.

__________________
Oh well, what the hell.

I hunted pheasant, chukars, Huns, quail and grouse for years with an LC Smith bored full and IM. It happened to be the perfect gun for all those different birds: #6 for pheasant, switch to 8 or 9 for quail.

My then-research said there was an occasional issue with a side-lock hammer spring breaking, so when I had the chance, I bought an extra. Never needed it....it's probably still in my 'inventory' somewhere.

Sometimes a gun just fits right and helps an average shooter become better than s/he really is. My 'Elsie' was one of those*. Loved that gun, and when asthma stopped my hill climbing, I sold it to a friend who is still loving it.




*as was, oddly enough, a stock-shortened Win Mdl 1200 pump ....go figure.....

L C Smiths are marvelous shotguns but are subject to stock splitting around the side locks. Look closely. I have several in 16 ga and love them. Smiths can often be found for Ithica prices.

Fox Sterlingworths are lovely guns if made by Fox. Stevens Fox guns are a different thing: although functional, they aren't Fox shotguns.

My favorites are Parkers. Nothing handles as nicely.

If you haven't done so, find a Parker and handle it: you'll see what I mean.

Parker Trojans are the entry level Parkers, just as the Sterlingworths are Fox entry level guns. Trojans are usually more expensive than Sterlingworths, condition being equal.

Graded Parkers go up in price from the Trojan.

I'm particularly fond of Parkers in 16 ga. Truly wonderful handling characteristics for me.

Ithaca Flues and NID are good guns, usually available for less than a Fox or Parker.

The Winchester 21 is clunky compared to the guns discussed above, but they are built like tanks. Trouble is, they sometimes feel like a tank and prices are wild.

You don't shoot tremendously heavy ammo in any of these guns. You don't need max loaded ammo for anything except to make the manufacturer happy.

I shoot low pressure ammo in all my doubles and almost always relatively low shot weights (1 oz in 16, 1-1/8 oz in 12) and have never felt the need for heavier loads for anything.

You don't need heavier loads unless you enjoy taking a beating and want to beat up the 100 year old wood of the stock. You certainly don't need them for any upland game in North America.

Don't shoot steel shot in any of these guns!

Winchester 21.

I assume we're talking SxS? I like my BSS. Two Parkers, one put away, one you can read a newspaper through the barrels. O/U, browning Superposed, Valmet 412 (?), but if I was going afield right now, my 20ga Ruger Red Label, an Orvis Special.

__________________
James L. "Jim" Rhiner

The AH Fox and the Ithaca NID are IMO the easiest to repair if needed,,and that includes auto ejectors.
They rarily have major problems unless owner induced but any part can break or wear out.

Yes they will get loose and so will an LC Smith, Parker, even a Win21. They are just mechanisms and they wear. Not much magic about one bolting system over another. Some are easier to remedy than others. The Win21 is one of the easier, the Parker not so much
Maintainance and general lack of it is the reason most have problems. They're not self cleaning, but you can't seem to convince some of that.

Coil springs in the Fox, Ithaca, Winchester21, and Parker.
Leaf V springs in the LCSmith and the original Lefever.
Once in a while a broken spring in any of them,,but the leaf springs are not subject to a frighteningly higher failure rate as some think.
Coil are easier to get, and flat springs are often expensive and more difficult to find though.
Sometimes you just have to make the flat/V springs and that's a lot of labor time. Then get rewarded with a broken spring on the first test bend and do it all over again.
I've got 2 V mainsprings w/ejector trip extensions on them to make now. One is a German mfg, the other English. At least the good spring in the other side comes in handy as a pattern,,if not a reversed one.

LC Smith breaks firing pins quite often. Don't dry fire your guns is my advise. Replacements are available,,some fitting usually required but not difficult. Make them from round stock is usually easier and faster.
Don't take the LCS action apart unless you are aware of the top lever spring (another V spring and a powerful one) that needs special handling upon reassembly.

Not difficult if you know the process, but I've seen many of the guns damaged and altered in attempts to fight to heavy spring while reassembling.
Stock abutment to frame is minimal at best in the LCS. You need all the positive bedding contact afforded or the wood will start to crack if it hasn't already. Just part of the game.
The LCS single selective trigger can be a repairmans nightmare,,as most any of the older SxS SST's can be (Parker in particular).
A few .000" difference in the tangs position can mean working or not working. That's the easy part to fix. You won't find many around that'll fix SST problems on the older guns. Even the Win21 selective trigger can give you fits. Nothing is fool-proof. Usually is was some fool that got inside and adjusted the mechanism in the first place that causes the problem.
Same with selective ejectors. Parker has probably the most complicated mechanism and parts. It's powered by V springs though the mainsprings in the action are coil. Ithaca, Fox and LCSmith all use coil springs to power their ejectors (called 'kickers' by a lot of double gun people)

Not a lot of parts around though the Parker Reproduction gun parts fit or can be made to fit, but those are tough to get anymore too. Old parts are usually just stripped from worn guns and you get old worn out parts.
Some of the new production CSMCo A.H.Fox production parts are usable in repairing the older original guns,,but not all. There is a scaled difference in the two and I don't know if they even sell parts anymore.
FWIW, the 1990's and later CSMCo production AH Fox guns started with ser# 'F205xxx'. This was a few thousand higher than the reported last 'old' production AH Fox and the 'F' prefix added to the ser# at the demand of the GCA.

The Ithaca NID has separate firing pins in the frame. They hold up well,but can be difficult to remove the small staked in set screw internally if you do have to take one out because of a broken tip.
A rotary locking bolt system, not unlike the LCS and the Fox



The Lefever Nitro Special (Ithaca made) uses the same type of set screw secured firing pins.
Not a bad gun. Kind of like the Stevens 311,,built strong, no beauty contest contestant, little to go wrong.
The A-Grade Nitro Special was frame contoured like the NID and had a better stock deminsion on it. They are well fitting guns as they are.
I upgraded one a while back and ended up with a pretty nice result.
The Western Arms SxS made by Ithaca is very similar to the Nitro Special. I think someone told me the frames were cast iron as opposed to cast steel on the Nitro Spec. Could be,,I've only had a couple of them to work on over the years.
You find them marked w/Montgomery Wards and other names very often. Same as for the Stevens 311, 1500, and other model SxS's.

If it's a double trigger/extractor gun,,I'd choose a Fox, Parker, Ithaca NID, Lefever A Grade Nitro Special in that order.
LC Smith is not one of my favorites.

Given a wider choice,,I take a German, Austrian or well made Belgian SxS from the same period over any of the USA made older guns.
Add the English guns in there too, but they get pricey just because they're Brit.
They're not all gems either!

I 'repaired' a pal's BSS 12 a few years back...wouldn't re-cock on barrel. There was a internal spring and plunger for the left sear that was stuck with rust. No rust anywhere else on the entire gun...but in the hole was plenty of rust!

I figure maybe some bluing salts or something didn't get washed-out when the Browning was made.

Paper thin barrels!...I have an ancient Colt 1878 side-hammer I wouldn't shoot on a bet...barrels at the muzzle are ridiculously thin...has a bunch of internal pitting too. Mechanically it would shoot..however I have visions of the Damascus barrels bursting and hanging there like a unwound slinky!

The Colts were supposedly the expensive doubles of the day...but I'm better served by my refurbed Parker Trojan. I do still want a Fox Sterlingworth..just don't see them around here much.

Don't know anything about any of the others...really don't know anything but book and internetz knowledge about Foxs or Parkers. I do have some hands-on shooting time with my Parker and like it

You could do a Doctoral thesis on the Browning "salt wood" guns.

__________________
James L. "Jim" Rhiner

No..The BSS wasn't salt-wood...was like the one particular spring/plunger hole was salty..the wood and metal touching the wood was fine...I'm familiar with salt-wood and it's effects on fine gun-steel......

Browning's 'salt-wood debacle' was an epic thing...there are still folks wondering why their Browning guns from the 60's/70's are rusty all the time..someday they will pull the wood off and say "OH MY!!"

I have 4 SxS shotguns.

I have a 20 gauge LC Smith that I bought disassembled. Beautiful wood and shoots great...Gunsmith says they're a pain to work on, but once together right are really nice shooters.

The second is a 12 Gauge Fulton Special a basic box lock made in the same factory as some of the LC's .

A Spanish 410 in nice shape....nuff said, bought it cause I wanted a 410 SxS and the price was too hard to ignore ($150).

My favorite is a 16 gauge Simpson Suhl....looks like a Merkel and shoots like a dream...I've killed quail at 50 yards with that shotgun....

What's the best of the old standards....beats me.

When buying any older SxS,,it's a good idea to have the bore dia and the bbl wall thickness checked.
Many of these older guns have been 'cleaned up' as far as the bores go to elliminate anything from micro hazy roughness to major moon crater pitting.

Some border on down right-dangerous to the extent the bores have been enlarged to clean them up,,thinning the bbl wall thickness in the process.
It's difficult to tell if the bores have been honed out by a pro,,and impossible to do anything other than guess what the bbl wall thickness is at any point along the tubes.

Refinishing the bbls also thins the tubes down from the outside. Chasing after a few pits in the surface here and there can lead to thin spots if you're not careful. Many bbl sets have been refinished and many of those multiple times.

Taking dents out and then refinishing the outside and honing the bores is a pretty common practice to sharpen up the looks of an old SxS. But consider the material removed from the outside and the inside,,,only a real bore measurement can tell you what you're left with and where.

The thinnest region is usually just at the front of the forend wood
on the assembled gun in most cases,,a real danger for a blowout and injury to the shooters hand. It has happened.

Many double folks consider .012/.013" wall thickness the absolute minimum from the forend on out to the muzzle or they walk away from the gun.
If you actually look at a piece of bbl material trimmed down to .012" thickness and imagine your hand wrapped around it,,chances are you wouldn't buy it or shoot it on a bet.
That thickness at the actual muzzle edge isn't all that severe. It does lead to easily damaged bbls because they're so thin.
But the pressures have dropped so dramaticly at that point that it can withstand it. But check the wall thickness right behind the muzzle,,it may be recklessly thin where the bore is larger as you are looking in most cases at the constricted diameter of a choke at the muzzle.

Most larger dealers will supply the bore, choke, chamber, and wall dimensions with the gun or on request. If the bore has been honed a touch, I don't see that as an immediate point to reject the gun. Some as mfg'rd are a bit over the standard spec anyway,,and some are under it too.
But anything over about .005/.006 above standard spec for the bore and it becomes a concern. Combine that with what the wall thickness may now be and the gun may get rejected.
It could just be a tire kicking point for the buyer if it's still in the acceptable catagory.
That's something you have to decide for yourself or let your gunsmith decide.
Most are sold w/a 3 day non shooting return priviledge. Take advantage of it and have the bores, wall thickness, chamber lengths and chokes checked out.
Modifications from factory original can be anywhere from near nothing to major, dangerously done work.

Any modification is a price issue for the buyer of course.
English guns are always argued as to being 'in proof' and not modified outside of the proofs on the gun,,or being 'out of proof'.
A big point w/the Brit guns as far as price no matter how well done.
It doesn't seem to be as big an issue with other countrys SxS's and what the proofs say as opposed to what the dimensions tell you.
USA guns,,has never had a demanded gov't proof,,so we believe what the gun mfg'r says and have been happy with that so far.
Alterations from original still effect price though.

Just be aware of hone-a-matic mechanics and the real possibility of a dangerously thin tubed shotgun that looks like a sparkling beauty when you look down the bores.
I've seen alot of them over the years. The worst was a Fox with walls so thin the bore-mic dented it from within when checking it.

I've had a A.H. Fox Sterlingworth 12 ga, 28" IC & M, since 1969. It is still a wonderful shotgun, and still locks up beautifully. I still remember when I bought it, at the suggestion of a shooter friend, and closing the action for the first time.....no comparison to anything new I had tried! A delight to shoot, I would think you could find a real decent one for a reasonable price.

Yeh...at least for me not so easy to find what I want in a Sterlingworth. Most I've looked at either had stock problems or barrel problems. Nicer ones costing too much for me to justify....I have seen a few on the racks at the stores. However like I say...either have busted buttstocks or sawed-off barrels...I looked at one Sterlingworth that had bent barrels!!!.....Guy's were hard on Foxs around my area I guess. The higher grade Fox shotguns are nowhere...only seen online at high high prices...

Parkers are rare on the gun-racks in my area too. It's like somebody around here is snapping them up at any price! You rarely see one at all in any condition.

I have not looked too hard for any other makes/models of the classics...not because they are bad guns or anything like that...it's just that I decided I wanted a A.H. Fox 12ga or a Parker 12ga. so that's what I've looked for and have tried to educate myself towards.

The Parker Trojan I've got now is no prize for a collector....zero percent original finish...over-buffed and reblued action...reblued barrels too(yikes!)...new wood with a recoil pad and wearing a checkering pattern that was never seen on a factory Parker Trojan.

I would say my Trojan had seen a lot of use and probably really needed an overhaul.....

I have an o/u Marlin 90 ( also sold as Sears/Ranger brand) and Stevens 311 in the family, both solid guns, the Marlin in particular is known for handling some pretty good mileage for a field gun.

I am extremely happy with the dimensions, balance and overall quality in my 16 ga Fox. 28" bbls mod and full. It is a 1930s gun manufactured in Utica, NY.

It depends on how you define "best," but I don't see anything much wrong with a 20 gauge Ruger.

Here's a Parker Bros. Trojan that was a gift when I was very young.

It had the barrels cut down to 28 inches long ago by original owners. Cylinder choke. Made in 1905.

It's taken countless rabbit, dove and quail.

It needed to be restocked due oil soaking and breakage. Other than that, it's in original condition. It sat in a closet for nearly 50 years, untouched.

Most all of these SxS of this era were very high quality from those I've handled and seen.

Attached Images

	P1000920.jpg (40.4 KB, 69 views)
	P1000921.jpg (56.5 KB, 70 views)
	P1000923.jpg (44.1 KB, 60 views)
	P1000924.jpg (56.1 KB, 63 views)

I like the Fox guns. I was given a 20 ga 311 that has some bbl rust and the one trigger didn't cock. I now have a 3" 20 ga that works great after a good cleaning. It's my back up gun for birds. My 12 ga is a CZ Brno with 2 triggers and extractors. Nice entry level side lock which I like. 2152, when you gonna let us know who you are? Bet as life past for me, I admired you're work in publications that I read. Larry

My first decent double was a Fox Sterlingworth that I purchased in 1966 for $150 as I remember it. It's configured very similiar to yours and was built in 1923. It was the only shotgun I owned for years and was used for everything from upland game to pass shooting ducks from a blind. I used everything including Super X duck loads in it and shot at least one deer with slugs. In all the years I've owned it it's never failed and never needed repairs. It's still gets used on occasion and I'll eventually pass it down to the grandchildren.
IMO: Given decent maintenance they'll virtually last forever.
Jim

Some very good points raised about old doubles with honed out barrels.

Don't buy a classic until checked by a competent double gunsmith

Occasionally you'll find one that has been honed, but not as frequently as you might imagine from internet posts.

Find a Parker with original wood and see how it handles.

Parker sold me the first time I grabbed one by the wrist -- one with original wood.

Nothing like it!!

These classic doubles are so good, I don't understand why everyone dosent use them.

Someone did a hell of a nice job restocking that Parker. Thanks for sharing.

The best domestic double?

Dolly Parton.

No, we're not talking about heavy artillery here, just man-portable guns.

__________________
Oh well, what the hell.

Forgot to add a pic of one of my favorites:

This is a Remington Model 1894 CEO grade. The plain versions were A grade and they went up to E grade. There were also a couple of SPECIAL grade guns made.

The E stands for Ejectors and the O is for Ordinance Steel barrels.

You could actually find guns like these for a reasonable price 20 years ago, especially at gun shows in places like PA and upstate NY. Now they are becoming so expensive you are better off buying a modern higher end double.

__________________
My sgntr is mor thn 30 chrctrs

bigmoose:

"Someone did a hell of a nice job restocking that Parker. Thanks for sharing."

Thanks for the comments.

Took a couple years to find a semi inlet blank, found that from some big outfit in California, was only $95.00
Work done by a real fine professional, Frank Wells in Tucson, AZ. Forearm color didn't match stock, so he redid that too. Original buttplate didn't fit, so he put a decelerator on it. Fit and finish are perfect.

Nice looking Parker.
I'd guess it was a VH Grade from the pictures and not the lower grade Trojan. The frame contour (sides) and the forend latch & forend metal tip aren't consistant with the Trojan Grade.
Action flat may have VH / serial# / 2.
'2' would be the V grade (kind of a repetitive way of marking the actions, but that was the common way it was done.
The bottom of the bbl lug should have the frame size stamped on it.
In 12ga,,'2' is the common size,,'1 1/2' seen quite frequently.
'1' frame not so often,,more common on a 16 or 20ga.
'1/2' (half) frame is the rare one as it was exclusively used for a lightweight 12ga.

Fakers sometimes make the '2' frame into a '1/2' frame by adding the '1' and the '/ ' to the '2'. It'll fool someone not familiar with them, but a real 1/2 frame is noticable trimmer.
A '1' frame is rare enough in 12ga that they'll leave the marking alone generally and not make a 1/2 frame ,,but not always.


Inside they are the same guns,,though the Trojan Grade had a smaller rib extension (dolls head) to start with. Later production elliminated the rib extension all together, which some shooters appreciated.
Same single lug lockup underneath.More than sufficient for the need.
.
Mr Wells did a great job. Congrats on a fine shotgun.
Cyl/Cyl w/modern plastic wad ammo, will do just about anything you need a shotgun to do.

2152hq:

Thank you for that detailed treatise on my Parker. One learns something new everyday, and it's nice to be able to tap into the collective knowledge of so many good folks.

Old thread. I hope the OP found his Side by.

I once had 6 Parker's, one was an A model. I really did like them. I also had 5 AH Fox shotguns, 5 were Sterlingworth models and one was a C grade.

I had 12 and 16 gauges in both. I had a 16 gauge PArker VH on a 0 frame I should have kept.

I was head over heels on the Parkers, but the more I used the AH Foxes the more I liked them. They had less parts and locked up tight.

Parkers do have a couple of weak links that can take it out of action. This is how I was able to get the A grade cheaply.

A divorce ate my guns.

I do wish I would have kept the AH Fox C grade with 2 bbls in 16 gauge. I do think it was much better than my Parker 16. More solid.

It may be hard to believe now but in the early to late 80's side by side doubles were not popular. Everyone wanted an auto or over and under both of which, in newer models, had screw in chokes. I found and bought many of these guns at gun shops for under $200.00.

Go with the AH Fox if you want to use it. A Parker if you want to hold beauty in your hands and I'd be wary of an LC, I've had a few, the side lock to me did not appear to be as durable as a box lock. But then I never had a really nice LC, all were used and probably lacked in maintenance over the previous century.

My initial reaction was Winchester 21 all the way.

But, if I had a chance to buy a decent A.H. Fox in 16ga., I would be all over that too.

__________________
Been up since before breakfast

If money weren't a consideration, I'd say the 21 Winchester is the best U.S.A. produced shotgun of all time. Next up would be Parker.

The next tier would include Lefever (not to be confused with the later Ithaca "Lefevers"), A.H. Fox, & L.C. Smith.

Down to the affordable stuff, Ithaca would lead the pack in my opinion.