Custer Battelfield Colt

[Rick Bowles]

As some of you know I'm helping the estate of an old friend who passed away with his gun collection. While looking at some of his old SAA's and their accompanying letters from Colt and John Kopec, it seems my friend has an Artillery Model, #5249, from "Lot 5" (#4516-#5521), received at Springfield Armory January 31, 1874. From this lot 755 revolvers were issued to the 7th Cavalry in late June, prior to the Black Hills campaign.

[30-30remchester]

What a great looking historic revolver. I am blissfully ignorant about Colt revolvers. I hope someone with more knowledge than I will answer a few questions I have.
Were not all early Calvary Colts fitted with a 7 1/2" barrel?
Were not the artillery models just shortened 7 1/2" barrels?
When did the 5" artillery models arrive on the scene?
The mixed up serial numbers indicate?

[Ivan the Butcher]

I am no expert!!! But I dought very much that gun saw action with any of Custer's men. The frame is old enough, but should have pitting and other wear indicating the rough life of being a battlefield pick-up and life with the Indians. I have a Trapdoor that has the correct qualifications,but is in much too good of condition. I believe the gun to be an issued gun, but the rebuild (if governmental) sounds like the one for the Spanish American war, where 7.5" SSA's were issued to volunteer units, like Roosevelt's Rough Riders.

On the other hand, you should be pleasantly surprised at what an early issue SSA brings these days! Ivan

[Camster]

Originally Posted by 30-30remchester

What a great looking historic revolver. I am blissfully ignorant about Colt revolvers. I hope someone with more knowledge than I will answer a few questions I have.
Were not all early Calvary Colts fitted with a 7 1/2" barrel?
Were not the artillery models just shortened 7 1/2" barrels?
When did the 5" artillery models arrive on the scene?
The mixed up serial numbers indicate?

No expert,but I'm thinking that it has a cut barrel.Not much of a crown.

[jpage]

Originally Posted by Ivan the Butcher

I am no expert!!! But I dought very much that gun saw action with any of Custer's men. The frame is old enough, but should have pitting and other wear indicating the rough life of being a battlefield pick-up and life with the Indians. I have a Trapdoor that has the correct qualifications,but is in much too good of condition. I believe the gun to be an issued gun, but the rebuild (if governmental) sounds like the one for the Spanish American war, where 7.5" SSA's were issued to volunteer units, like Roosevelt's Rough Riders.

On the other hand, you should be pleasantly surprised at what an early issue SSA brings these days! Ivan

Perhaps it was issued to a trooper in Benteen's or Reno's Battalion ?

[Iggy]

Yup, the 7th Cav. didn't all die at the Little Big Horn.


They were at Wounded Knee in 1890 too.

[mc5aw]

I believe the three day James D. Julia firearms auction in March has a Custer battlefield pickup Colt SA to view in comparison. If I recall, this particular Colt will be in the third day items after the Elmer Keith collection.

The provenance of the OP's Colt shows time period confirmation to the 7th Cav, but as jpage notes, it doesn't guarantee it belonged to one of Custer's troopers but could have easily been issued to someone away from the primary battle.

[jimmyj]

Hi:
IIRC ? When the issue .38 Revolvers were found to be inadequate against the Moros in the Philippines after the Spanish-American War, Colt SAA in government warehouses were sent to Colt for "Up Dating" and sent to the American Troops. The "Up Dating" consisted of also cutting the 7.5" barrels back to 5.5". The Colts were not reassembled with original parts, thus these Colts would not have matching parts.

[Rick Bowles]

It is known that 8000 Colt Single Action Army revolvers were purchased under the Army contract of July 23, 1872, all of which were shipped to the Springfield Armory between November 25, 1872 and March 18, 1874. One thousand of these were shipped to the Rock Island Arsenal earmarked for the 7th Cavalry. Prior to the Black Hills expedition, some 755 of these were issued to the 7th Cavalry.

The chart below shows the estimated serial range of the 8000 revolvers of the Army contract of July 23, 1872. Attention "Lot 5".

Lot 1 -- 1000 revolvers, estimated serial numbers 200-1222 received Springfield Armory November 28, 1873.

Lot 2 -- 1000 revolvers, estimated serial numbers 1223-2336 received at Springfield Armory December 19, 1873.

Lot 3 -- 1000 revolvers, estimated serial numbers 2337-3437, received at Springfield Armory January 3, 1874.

Lot 4 -- 1000 revolvers, estimated serial numbers 3438-4515 received at Springfield Armory January 24, 1874.

Lot 5 -- 1000 revolvers, estimated serial numbers 4516-5521, received at Springfield Armory January 31, 1874. (From this lot 755 revolvers were issued in late June, prior to the Black Hills campaign to the 7th Cavalry.)

Lot 6 -- 1000 revolvers, estimated serial numbers 5522-6530, received at the Springfield Armory February 17, 1874. (Although shipping records are incomplete, it is almost conclusive, some guns from this range were issued to the 7th Cavalry for Companies D and I, which included turn-ins from Company K.

Lot 7 -- 1000 revolvers, estimated serial numbers 6531-7540, received at Springfield Armory, March 5, 1874.

Lot 8 -- 1000 revolvers, estimated serial numbers 7540-8610, received at the Springfield Armory, March 18, 1874.

While it is virtually impossible to positively place any Colt Single Action Army (except three) directly in the battles of June 25-26 1876, there is information available from which we can narrow down the possibilities. We know, of course, that Custer's 212 men from company C, E, F, I and L of the Seventh Cavalry were lost and all their firearms taken from the field by the Indians. There are only three revolvers that have been positively confirmed as being with Custer. Not surprisingly, two of these were recovered from Indians and a third was excavated from the field in 1933.

Reno lost 40 men and their revolvers. Benteen lost three men but recovered their revolvers.

Of the total compliment of 632 troopers, staff and scouts, 266 were killed and between 252-300 of the original 755 Colt Single Action Army revolvers were lost.

After twenty years of hard service, virtually all of the Seventh Cavalry's Colts were recalled. Between 1896-1903, These "Custer Colts" were among 14,900 revolvers that were refurbished and cut to 5-1/2 inch barrels at Springfield Armory and Colt. The vast majority of these Artillery models will feature mixed numbered parts.

The chart below from John Kopec's "COLT CAVALRY & ARTILLERY REVOLVERS.... a Continuing Study" lists the known examples of Colt Artillery models from the Seventh Cavalry's "Lot 5" serial number range.

[picketpin]

Fascinating guys, thank you!

James

[ISCS Yoda]

Fascinating, yes, but I'd be really careful about assuming that any weapon not presently in a museum was actually at the Little Big Horn battleground.

I don't know why so many folks think the entire 7th Cavalry was killed at the Little Big Horn. Half of the regiment wasn't there as far as I know; they were back at HQ or otherwise pre-occupied. Five companies were under Custer's command and were killed. The men under Benteen, Reno, Yates - mostly not killed - maybe all not killed, I'd have to look that up. The 7th Cav didn't vanish in that battle so being at Wounded Knee or elsewhere is completely understandable.

***GRJ***

[ColbyBruce]

If I understand correctly, this is a "Frankenstein" gun that the frame was issued to Custer's troops, but not necessarily known to have been at the battle of the Little Big Horn? Does it command a higher price than any other parts gun?

[mc5aw]

Any Colt that can be traced to 7th Cav service issue will command a strong price, irrespective of factory refurbishing. The revolver Rick has shown and detailed is a beautiful find with a fascinating provenance. I'm certain it will sell for more than most of our budgets would permit.

[Rick Bowles]

Originally Posted by ColbyBruce

If I understand correctly, this is a "Frankenstein" gun that the frame was issued to Custer's troops, but not necessarily known to have been at the battle of the Little Big Horn? Does it command a higher price than any other parts gun?

Allow me to be clear on this. Only three revolvers are known to have been in the battle with G.A. Custer. Any SAA from "Lot 5" is considered a 7th Cavalry, "Custer Colt" because they were issued to the seventh before the Black Hills campaign. As for a "parts gun", as I explained above, they SHOULD be mixed serial numbers as most (not all) of them were.

I understand the skepticism. We see a lot of fakes and it has a tendency to blind us to the real McCoy. I'm not selling this SAA here. I simply thought you folks would like to see a genuine 7th. Cavalry issue Colt.

[Larry Weinbrenner]

You do have a fairly rare collector piece as far as Colt collectors are concerned.
To know how this piece came into the configuration it is in now, is due to after the army went to .38 caliber, Colt double action revolvers in the mid 1890s, the old S.A.A.'s were retired & warehoused, sold to militias, & etc. During conflicts at the turn of the century, it was determined the .38 was insufficient to down an enemy. Colt was called on to refurbish the old cavalry models which was to cut the barrels to 5.5" and no attempt was made to match serial #s.
So what you have is one of these models. Years ago, this type of pistol was shunned by collectors but times have changed. And if a frame # falls into the serial # range of 1-8800, this is considered a Custer range Colt and especially the number on your gun could, and I emphasize COULD have been issued to the 7th.
Unfortunately, if your revolver had remained in original configuration, it most likely be worth between $13000 to $40000, depending on condition.
Without seeing the revolver, I would venture a collector price might run around $6000- $8000. Mind you. that is a guess.
I am a collector of Indian War weapons and although not an expert, I have been involved in the hobby for over 45 years.
Custermania cannot be explained but those who want a piece of history from the famed 7th will pay almost any price nowadays. Even if it can not be proved it was there. I do have one in original configuration that I acquired many years ago.
But anyway, you do have a revolver that is of some worth & a Kopec letter does add credence to the piece.

[Rick Bowles]

Larry,

Welcome to the forum and thank you for your opinion.

[ColbyBruce]

Not being a collector, Colt person, or military enthusiast this is all new to me. Would any SAA with the original parts off the above gun have the same value, providing they are in like condition?

Where are the three guns that are documented to have been at the battle? Thanks.

[Larry Weinbrenner]

Many thanks.
Having carried S&W's throughout my career & have several in my collection, I do enjoy reading the posts and especially had to respond to this topic.

[Rick Bowles]

Originally Posted by ColbyBruce

Not being a collector, Colt person, or military enthusiast this is all new to me. Would any SAA with the original parts off the above gun have the same value, providing they are in like condition?

Where are the three guns that are documented to have been at the battle? Thanks.

Virtually all of the surviving Seventh Cavalry Colt Single Action Army revolvers from lot five (4500-5504) were among the 14,900 sent back to Springfield Arsenal or Colt (if they were deemed unserviceable) between 1895-1903 to be refurbished and have the barrel cut to 5.5 inches. Though some revolvers of the first to be refurbished at both Colt and Springfield Arsenal will exhibit matching numbers, most will have mixed numbers. Yes, a revolver with any part numbered in the Lot 5 serial range has interest to collectors but of course the frame number is most important.

I believe of the three known examples of verified "Last Stand" revolvers, one is in a private collection, one (the "Two Moons" gun) is up for auction and the whereabouts of the third is not known.

[Larry Weinbrenner]

Originally Posted by ColbyBruce

Not being a collector, Colt person, or military enthusiast this is all new to me. Would any SAA with the original parts off the above gun have the same value, providing they are in like condition?

Where are the three guns that are documented to have been at the battle? Thanks.

Well, no... The early Colt SAAs were sold to both the civilian & military market. The difference between a civilian & Army issue is easy to see. One, the civilian revolver grips were varnished wood, ivory or pearl depending on the owner's taste. All military issue were oiled wood. The military issue will have U.S. stamped on the left frame under the cylinder plus numerous inspector initials stamped on all parts.
The finish on military weapons were for the most part, blued with some nickel revolvers being issued. Officers had to purchase their own weapons and could either buy through company issue or order from the manufacturer and he had he choice of finish.
As to your question would other revolvers have the same value. The revolver in question is made up of military issued parts and there is where the demand is ,as military issued weapons always seem to demand more money to collectors.
So,in a short answer...no. Not to say a civilian Colt manufactured during the same period as the military revolvers can't bring the same high price, a lot would depend on condition, provenance, & embellishments. Civilian pieces just don't command the high price as the very early U.S. Colts. You have to remember, these old warhorses saw the brunt of the Indian Wars and were completely worn out before being replaced. You will find later model U.S. issued revolvers in better shape & usually with a lot of finish. It is hard to find very many of the Custer era revolvers under serial # 1-8800 anywhere and if you do, they have usually been rode hard & put up wet.
In this day & age if you should find one, beware of fakers as today there are many who can stamp marks & age them to look original. That is why the services of an experienced collector or someone like Kopec is needed, as they can spot a fake quite easily.
Early military Colts, S&W Americans & Schofields can become an investment and usually bring more than the stock market even if you would have bought just a little over 5 years ago. Kind'a scary, considering!!
As far as to the weapons found at the LBH, there have been several that surfaced but this includes the Springfield trapdoor carbines but all in all, just a few survived as a lot were captured by the Indians and some of those have surfaced in recent years for auction. I have read an article where a S&W Schofield was found on the battlefield which is possible as I said, officers were able to buy what kind of revolver they wanted. Custer carried a pair of Webleys.
Antique weapons are a lot of fun but you do have to do your homework.

[Darkenfast]

Wonderful revolver and thread! Three questions: first, was the cutting down of barrels to the "artillery" length already well in hand by the time of the Army's involvement in the Philippines? Second: how much does the replacement of the grip affect the value of this kind of specimen? And just out of curiosity: how was the rear sight on this revolver modified? Thanks!

[lawandorder]

..............produced a large number of cartridge cases, and some projectiles. It could be proven if a particular firearm was used on the scene that day though forensic examinations.

The Custer revolver I would treasure above all others would be one found in relic condition on the battlefield with a mix of empty, and loaded cases in the cylinder. That would indeed be hand held history.

Thank you for sharing the images of this revolver.

[one eye joe]

Originally Posted by mc5aw

I believe the three day James D. Julia firearms auction in March has a Custer battlefield pickup Colt SA to view in comparison. If I recall, this particular Colt will be in the third day items after the Elmer Keith collection.

The provenance of the OP's Colt shows time period confirmation to the 7th Cav, but as jpage notes, it doesn't guarantee it belonged to one of Custer's troopers but could have easily been issued to someone away from the primary battle.

THIS IS GREAT INFORMATION, mc5aw. IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT INFORMATION CONFIRMS THE TO BE AUCTIONED REVOLVER AS A BATTLEFIELD PICK UP AT THE LAST STAND, THAT THE OP'S WEAPON LACKS--AND ALSO TO COMPARE THE PHYSICAL CONDITION. BTW---BEING AT WOUNDED KNEE IS NOT TOO SHABBY EITHER………..

[mc5aw]

Originally Posted by one eye joe

THIS IS GREAT INFORMATION, mc5aw. IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT INFORMATION CONFIRMS THE TO BE AUCTIONED REVOLVER AS A BATTLEFIELD PICK UP AT THE LAST STAND, THAT THE OP'S WEAPON LACKS--AND ALSO TO COMPARE THE PHYSICAL CONDITION. BTW---BEING AT WOUNDED KNEE IS NOT TOO SHABBY EITHER………..

Correction: The revolver I referenced is not a Colt SA but rather a Remington from the Arthur C. Unger collection. It can be seen on the J.Julia website as a preview item from the March auction. Scroll down a bit more than half the page of featured firearms and you will find it.

[Indynick]

I have a ballistic question. If the issue .38 Revolvers were found to be inadequate against the Moros in the Philippines, why would they cut the 7.5" barrels back to 5.5"? Wouldn’t that lower the muzzle velocity?

[Watchdog]

What a great thread with so many interesting facts. This is the kind of thread that makes this forum so good.

[Rick Bowles]

Originally Posted by Indynick

I have a ballistic question. If the issue .38 Revolvers were found to be inadequate against the Moros in the Philippines, why would they cut the 7.5" barrels back to 5.5"? Wouldn’t that lower the muzzle velocity?

Depending of course on the load, a 230gr. bullet from a 7-1/2" SAA has a muzzle velocity of around 925 fps. The same projectile from a 5-1/2" SAA has a muzzle velocity of around 850 fps. This is just a guess but the difference in velocity is negligible when compared to the handling characteristics and convenience of a 5.5" versus a 7.5 barrel.

[spdguns]

WAY COOL! I helped a lady authenticate and document a Colt SAA last year. The gun was a previously undiscovered US Marshall's gun in Indian Territory Oklahoma. It was her great grandfather's and had been handed down in her family. I helped her sell it at the Wannamacher show. It brought asking price and sold in 2 hours.

[PJS50]

Originally Posted by Larry Weinbrenner

Well, no... The early Colt SAAs were sold to both the civilian & military market. The difference between a civilian & Army issue is easy to see. One, the civilian revolver grips were varnished wood, ivory or pearl depending on the owner's taste. All military issue were oiled wood. The military issue will have U.S. stamped on the left frame under the cylinder plus numerous inspector initials stamped on all parts.
The finish on military weapons were for the most part, blued with some nickel revolvers being issued. Officers had to purchase their own weapons and could either buy through company issue or order from the manufacturer and he had he choice of finish.
As to your question would other revolvers have the same value. The revolver in question is made up of military issued parts and there is where the demand is ,as military issued weapons always seem to demand more money to collectors.
So,in a short answer...no. Not to say a civilian Colt manufactured during the same period as the military revolvers can't bring the same high price, a lot would depend on condition, provenance, & embellishments. Civilian pieces just don't command the high price as the very early U.S. Colts. You have to remember, these old warhorses saw the brunt of the Indian Wars and were completely worn out before being replaced. You will find later model U.S. issued revolvers in better shape & usually with a lot of finish. It is hard to find very many of the Custer era revolvers under serial # 1-8800 anywhere and if you do, they have usually been rode hard & put up wet.
In this day & age if you should find one, beware of fakers as today there are many who can stamp marks & age them to look original. That is why the services of an experienced collector or someone like Kopec is needed, as they can spot a fake quite easily.
Early military Colts, S&W Americans & Schofields can become an investment and usually bring more than the stock market even if you would have bought just a little over 5 years ago. Kind'a scary, considering!!
As far as to the weapons found at the LBH, there have been several that surfaced but this includes the Springfield trapdoor carbines but all in all, just a few survived as a lot were captured by the Indians and some of those have surfaced in recent years for auction. I have read an article where a S&W Schofield was found on the battlefield which is possible as I said, officers were able to buy what kind of revolver they wanted. Custer carried a pair of Webleys.
Antique weapons are a lot of fun but you do have to do your homework.

Excellent posting Larry...
Somebody referenced this as being a "parts gun". Well, almost ALL the early martial SAA's are that way as all of these guns had been reworked/rebuilt at least once in their military service life. How these rebuilds were explained to me was: the armorers would take all the guns apart, and throw all the different pieces in different "barrels" (literally). Then, they would start with a frame, and re-fit all the needed parts to the guns using parts they picked out of the barrels (barrel lengths were cut from 7.5" down to 5.5" at that time too). They were certainly re-blued as part of this process too. As Larry so eloquently wrote "they were ridden hard and put away wet" in their service life, so whn they were rebuilt, they were usually pretty "rough" both mechanically and definitely finish wise.

I actually held a Custer SAA Colt (can't remember the ser. number) which had ALL the serial numbers matching. The speculation was that this particular gun was probably removed from the battlefield by an Indian since it obviously didn't go through the rebuild process as described above (but unfortunately its barrel had been cut at some time during its lifetime). It was probably sold/traded by the Indian who grabbed it some time shortly thereafter because Indians who were caught with US Army martial guns were NOT treated very kindly by their captors...


To me, it's almost chilling to hold such a piece of history in your hands.

Thanks for sharing Rick!

What OTHER nice guns are you disposing of?
Any nice/old 1911's to be had?????

[Daisyman]

I'm an old newbie on this forum. I found all this information to be fascinating. A lot of research has gone into all this, I can see. The fact that old guns were used and reused till there wasn't hardly anything left might be a lesson in frugality we could use today.