Custer Battelfield Colt

As some of you know I'm helping the estate of an old friend who passed away with his gun collection. While looking at some of his old SAA's and their accompanying letters from Colt and John Kopec, it seems my friend has an Artillery Model, #5249, from "Lot 5" (#4516-#5521), received at Springfield Armory January 31, 1874. From this lot 755 revolvers were issued to the 7th Cavalry in late June, prior to the Black Hills campaign.

What a great looking historic revolver. I am blissfully ignorant about Colt revolvers. I hope someone with more knowledge than I will answer a few questions I have.
Were not all early Calvary Colts fitted with a 7 1/2" barrel?
Were not the artillery models just shortened 7 1/2" barrels?
When did the 5" artillery models arrive on the scene?
The mixed up serial numbers indicate?

I am no expert!!! But I dought very much that gun saw action with any of Custer's men. The frame is old enough, but should have pitting and other wear indicating the rough life of being a battlefield pick-up and life with the Indians. I have a Trapdoor that has the correct qualifications,but is in much too good of condition. I believe the gun to be an issued gun, but the rebuild (if governmental) sounds like the one for the Spanish American war, where 7.5" SSA's were issued to volunteer units, like Roosevelt's Rough Riders.

On the other hand, you should be pleasantly surprised at what an early issue SSA brings these days! Ivan

30-30remchester said:

What a great looking historic revolver. I am blissfully ignorant about Colt revolvers. I hope someone with more knowledge than I will answer a few questions I have.
Were not all early Calvary Colts fitted with a 7 1/2" barrel?
Were not the artillery models just shortened 7 1/2" barrels?
When did the 5" artillery models arrive on the scene?
The mixed up serial numbers indicate?

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No expert,but I'm thinking that it has a cut barrel.Not much of a crown.

Ivan the Butcher said:

I am no expert!!! But I dought very much that gun saw action with any of Custer's men. The frame is old enough, but should have pitting and other wear indicating the rough life of being a battlefield pick-up and life with the Indians. I have a Trapdoor that has the correct qualifications,but is in much too good of condition. I believe the gun to be an issued gun, but the rebuild (if governmental) sounds like the one for the Spanish American war, where 7.5" SSA's were issued to volunteer units, like Roosevelt's Rough Riders.

On the other hand, you should be pleasantly surprised at what an early issue SSA brings these days! Ivan

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Perhaps it was issued to a trooper in Benteen's or Reno's Battalion ?

Yup, the 7th Cav. didn't all die at the Little Big Horn.


They were at Wounded Knee in 1890 too.

I believe the three day James D. Julia firearms auction in March has a Custer battlefield pickup Colt SA to view in comparison. If I recall, this particular Colt will be in the third day items after the Elmer Keith collection.

The provenance of the OP's Colt shows time period confirmation to the 7th Cav, but as jpage notes, it doesn't guarantee it belonged to one of Custer's troopers but could have easily been issued to someone away from the primary battle.

Hi:
IIRC ? When the issue .38 Revolvers were found to be inadequate against the Moros in the Philippines after the Spanish-American War, Colt SAA in government warehouses were sent to Colt for "Up Dating" and sent to the American Troops. The "Up Dating" consisted of also cutting the 7.5" barrels back to 5.5". The Colts were not reassembled with original parts, thus these Colts would not have matching parts.

It is known that 8000 Colt Single Action Army revolvers were purchased under the Army contract of July 23, 1872, all of which were shipped to the Springfield Armory between November 25, 1872 and March 18, 1874. One thousand of these were shipped to the Rock Island Arsenal earmarked for the 7th Cavalry. Prior to the Black Hills expedition, some 755 of these were issued to the 7th Cavalry.

The chart below shows the estimated serial range of the 8000 revolvers of the Army contract of July 23, 1872. Attention "Lot 5".

Lot 1 -- 1000 revolvers, estimated serial numbers 200-1222 received Springfield Armory November 28, 1873.

Lot 2 -- 1000 revolvers, estimated serial numbers 1223-2336 received at Springfield Armory December 19, 1873.

Lot 3 -- 1000 revolvers, estimated serial numbers 2337-3437, received at Springfield Armory January 3, 1874.

Lot 4 -- 1000 revolvers, estimated serial numbers 3438-4515 received at Springfield Armory January 24, 1874.

Lot 5 -- 1000 revolvers, estimated serial numbers 4516-5521, received at Springfield Armory January 31, 1874. (From this lot 755 revolvers were issued in late June, prior to the Black Hills campaign to the 7th Cavalry.)

Lot 6 -- 1000 revolvers, estimated serial numbers 5522-6530, received at the Springfield Armory February 17, 1874. (Although shipping records are incomplete, it is almost conclusive, some guns from this range were issued to the 7th Cavalry for Companies D and I, which included turn-ins from Company K.

Lot 7 -- 1000 revolvers, estimated serial numbers 6531-7540, received at Springfield Armory, March 5, 1874.

Lot 8 -- 1000 revolvers, estimated serial numbers 7540-8610, received at the Springfield Armory, March 18, 1874.

While it is virtually impossible to positively place any Colt Single Action Army (except three) directly in the battles of June 25-26 1876, there is information available from which we can narrow down the possibilities. We know, of course, that Custer's 212 men from company C, E, F, I and L of the Seventh Cavalry were lost and all their firearms taken from the field by the Indians. There are only three revolvers that have been positively confirmed as being with Custer. Not surprisingly, two of these were recovered from Indians and a third was excavated from the field in 1933.

Reno lost 40 men and their revolvers. Benteen lost three men but recovered their revolvers.

Of the total compliment of 632 troopers, staff and scouts, 266 were killed and between 252-300 of the original 755 Colt Single Action Army revolvers were lost.

After twenty years of hard service, virtually all of the Seventh Cavalry's Colts were recalled. Between 1896-1903, These "Custer Colts" were among 14,900 revolvers that were refurbished and cut to 5-1/2 inch barrels at Springfield Armory and Colt. The vast majority of these Artillery models will feature mixed numbered parts.

The chart below from John Kopec's "COLT CAVALRY & ARTILLERY REVOLVERS.... a Continuing Study" lists the known examples of Colt Artillery models from the Seventh Cavalry's "Lot 5" serial number range.

Fascinating guys, thank you!

James

Fascinating, yes, but I'd be really careful about assuming that any weapon not presently in a museum was actually at the Little Big Horn battleground.

I don't know why so many folks think the entire 7th Cavalry was killed at the Little Big Horn. Half of the regiment wasn't there as far as I know; they were back at HQ or otherwise pre-occupied. Five companies were under Custer's command and were killed. The men under Benteen, Reno, Yates - mostly not killed - maybe all not killed, I'd have to look that up. The 7th Cav didn't vanish in that battle so being at Wounded Knee or elsewhere is completely understandable.

***GRJ***

If I understand correctly, this is a "Frankenstein" gun that the frame was issued to Custer's troops, but not necessarily known to have been at the battle of the Little Big Horn? Does it command a higher price than any other parts gun?

Any Colt that can be traced to 7th Cav service issue will command a strong price, irrespective of factory refurbishing. The revolver Rick has shown and detailed is a beautiful find with a fascinating provenance. I'm certain it will sell for more than most of our budgets would permit.

ColbyBruce said:

If I understand correctly, this is a "Frankenstein" gun that the frame was issued to Custer's troops, but not necessarily known to have been at the battle of the Little Big Horn? Does it command a higher price than any other parts gun?

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Allow me to be clear on this. Only three revolvers are known to have been in the battle with G.A. Custer. Any SAA from "Lot 5" is considered a 7th Cavalry, "Custer Colt" because they were issued to the seventh before the Black Hills campaign. As for a "parts gun", as I explained above, they SHOULD be mixed serial numbers as most (not all) of them were.

I understand the skepticism. We see a lot of fakes and it has a tendency to blind us to the real McCoy. I'm not selling this SAA here. I simply thought you folks would like to see a genuine 7th. Cavalry issue Colt.

Custer Battlefield Colt

You do have a fairly rare collector piece as far as Colt collectors are concerned.
To know how this piece came into the configuration it is in now, is due to after the army went to .38 caliber, Colt double action revolvers in the mid 1890s, the old S.A.A.'s were retired & warehoused, sold to militias, & etc. During conflicts at the turn of the century, it was determined the .38 was insufficient to down an enemy. Colt was called on to refurbish the old cavalry models which was to cut the barrels to 5.5" and no attempt was made to match serial #s.
So what you have is one of these models. Years ago, this type of pistol was shunned by collectors but times have changed. And if a frame # falls into the serial # range of 1-8800, this is considered a Custer range Colt and especially the number on your gun could, and I emphasize COULD have been issued to the 7th.
Unfortunately, if your revolver had remained in original configuration, it most likely be worth between $13000 to $40000, depending on condition.
Without seeing the revolver, I would venture a collector price might run around $6000- $8000. Mind you. that is a guess.
I am a collector of Indian War weapons and although not an expert, I have been involved in the hobby for over 45 years.
Custermania cannot be explained but those who want a piece of history from the famed 7th will pay almost any price nowadays. Even if it can not be proved it was there. I do have one in original configuration that I acquired many years ago.
But anyway, you do have a revolver that is of some worth & a Kopec letter does add credence to the piece.

Larry,

Welcome to the forum and thank you for your opinion.

Interesting

Not being a collector, Colt person, or military enthusiast this is all new to me. Would any SAA with the original parts off the above gun have the same value, providing they are in like condition?

Where are the three guns that are documented to have been at the battle? Thanks.

Custer Battlefield Colt

Many thanks.
Having carried S&W's throughout my career & have several in my collection, I do enjoy reading the posts and especially had to respond to this topic.

ColbyBruce said:

Not being a collector, Colt person, or military enthusiast this is all new to me. Would any SAA with the original parts off the above gun have the same value, providing they are in like condition?

Where are the three guns that are documented to have been at the battle? Thanks.

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Virtually all of the surviving Seventh Cavalry Colt Single Action Army revolvers from lot five (4500-5504) were among the 14,900 sent back to Springfield Arsenal or Colt (if they were deemed unserviceable) between 1895-1903 to be refurbished and have the barrel cut to 5.5 inches. Though some revolvers of the first to be refurbished at both Colt and Springfield Arsenal will exhibit matching numbers, most will have mixed numbers. Yes, a revolver with any part numbered in the Lot 5 serial range has interest to collectors but of course the frame number is most important.

I believe of the three known examples of verified "Last Stand" revolvers, one is in a private collection, one (the "Two Moons" gun) is up for auction and the whereabouts of the third is not known.

Custer Battlefield Colt

ColbyBruce said:

Not being a collector, Colt person, or military enthusiast this is all new to me. Would any SAA with the original parts off the above gun have the same value, providing they are in like condition?

Where are the three guns that are documented to have been at the battle? Thanks.

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Well, no... The early Colt SAAs were sold to both the civilian & military market. The difference between a civilian & Army issue is easy to see. One, the civilian revolver grips were varnished wood, ivory or pearl depending on the owner's taste. All military issue were oiled wood. The military issue will have U.S. stamped on the left frame under the cylinder plus numerous inspector initials stamped on all parts.
The finish on military weapons were for the most part, blued with some nickel revolvers being issued. Officers had to purchase their own weapons and could either buy through company issue or order from the manufacturer and he had he choice of finish.
As to your question would other revolvers have the same value. The revolver in question is made up of military issued parts and there is where the demand is ,as military issued weapons always seem to demand more money to collectors.
So,in a short answer...no. Not to say a civilian Colt manufactured during the same period as the military revolvers can't bring the same high price, a lot would depend on condition, provenance, & embellishments. Civilian pieces just don't command the high price as the very early U.S. Colts. You have to remember, these old warhorses saw the brunt of the Indian Wars and were completely worn out before being replaced. You will find later model U.S. issued revolvers in better shape & usually with a lot of finish. It is hard to find very many of the Custer era revolvers under serial # 1-8800 anywhere and if you do, they have usually been rode hard & put up wet.
In this day & age if you should find one, beware of fakers as today there are many who can stamp marks & age them to look original. That is why the services of an experienced collector or someone like Kopec is needed, as they can spot a fake quite easily.
Early military Colts, S&W Americans & Schofields can become an investment and usually bring more than the stock market even if you would have bought just a little over 5 years ago. Kind'a scary, considering!!
As far as to the weapons found at the LBH, there have been several that surfaced but this includes the Springfield trapdoor carbines but all in all, just a few survived as a lot were captured by the Indians and some of those have surfaced in recent years for auction. I have read an article where a S&W Schofield was found on the battlefield which is possible as I said, officers were able to buy what kind of revolver they wanted. Custer carried a pair of Webleys.
Antique weapons are a lot of fun but you do have to do your homework.