Two great magnum wheelguns, and a question

I like to carry 4 inch revolvers when I can (which is more often than not). My two favorite revolvers are the Ruger GP100 Match Champion and the Smith & Wesson model 58. In the Ruger I carry Underwood's .357 magnum 125 gr. JHP that does 1,600 ft/s from the 4 inch tube. In the S&W I carry Speer's .41 magnum 210 gr. Gold Dot, which does around 1,200 from a 4 inch. Here's my question: Is there really any practical difference in defensive capabilities between these two guns with my carry loads?

Ruger: 125 gr JHP @ 1,600 ft/s = 711 muzzle energy
S&W: 210 gr JHP @ 1,200 ft/s = ~725 muzzle energy

I don't mean to make this a Ruger vs S&W debate. And I don't want this to be a caliber war. My question comes down to: given these two specific loads, does any one of these have a distinct advantage over the other in terms of defensive abilities to stop a determined threat? I shoot both of these revolvers equally well. The .41 magnum revolver is only 3.5 ounces heavier than the .357 magnum. They are both excellent wheelguns.

I know the .41 magnum doesn't have a lot of 'street data' from LEO shootings, but the 125 gr. 357 mag DOES have a lot of evidence in its favor (Ayoob cites that the Indianapolis PD had its first 10 shootings with the 125 gr. JHP @ 1,450 ft/s, and had as many instant one shot stops from that load. The Kentucky State Troopers like its performance so much, they called it the 'magic bullet').

Even though the .41 has a larger cross sectional area, the .357 load from Underwood is an unprecedented factory velocity (1,600 ft/s!). Is this really a case of '6 of one and half dozen the other', or am I missing a distinct ballistic (and real world) advantage that one has over the other?

Thanks in advance.

Don't think you can really go wrong with either, but if you are more worried about humans the nod goes to the .357, for four legged critters the .41.

If over-penetration is a concern, go with the larger caliber.

Shorty 45 MK2 said:

Don't think you can really go wrong with either, but if you are more worried about humans the nod goes to the .357, for four legged critters the .41.

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Thanks for the reply. That's a good way to look at it. I'm mostly carrying for two-legged goblins, but I am surrounded by farms, so coyotes and large unfriendly dogs are a possibility.

It's a shame that there isn't a ton of ballistic data on various .41 mag loads. I know SuperMan on these boards has done a lot of good info. But I just don't know what kind of penetration the .41 Gold Dot will do in a ballistic gel test. We know what the 125 gr. JHP does in .357, and the results are almost always impressive.

It's interesting that in these two guns, these two loads recoil about the same in terms of being controllable as one another. They do have a different 'feel': .357 has a sharper 'sting', whereas the .41 is more of a rough 'shove'.

Bob O said:

If over-penetration is a concern, go with the larger caliber.

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Thanks! That's an interesting perspective. I WOULD have thought that the .357 mag tends to penetrate less than a big and heavy hollow point like the 210 gr. 41?

My guess would be that the 125 gr. @ 1,600 ft/s would violently expand, and go roughly 12 inches in the gel. I have no idea what the 41 mag Gold dot would do in gel, but I'd guess it go deeper, more like a heavy 10mm or even a .44 mag. But that's why I ask.

Any thoughts?

I shot a .41 Magnum 210 JHP from a Model 58 at a Ford Bronco that had tried to run me down.

The bullet went through the spare tire, the inch diameter tubing of the spare tire rack on the back of the rig, the tail gate, the back of the seat and destroyed the radio in the dash board.


I use the bullet as a tie tack now.

Iggy said:

I shot a .41 Magnum 210 JHP from a Model 58 at a Ford Bronco that had tried to run me down.

The bullet went through the spare tire, the inch diameter tubing of the spare tire rack on the back of the rig, the tail gate, the back of the seat and destroyed the radio in the dash board.

I use the bullet as a tie tack now.

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All that, and you still didn't hit what was trying to run you down.

American1776 said:

Thanks for the reply. That's a good way to look at it. I'm mostly carrying for two-legged goblins, but I am surrounded by farms, so coyotes and large unfriendly dogs are a possibility.

It's a shame that there isn't a ton of ballistic data on various .41 mag loads. I know SuperMan on these boards has done a lot of good info. But I just don't know what kind of penetration the .41 Gold Dot will do in a ballistic gel test. We know what the 125 gr. JHP does in .357, and the results are almost always impressive.

It's interesting that in these two guns, these two loads recoil about the same in terms of being controllable as one another. They do have a different 'feel': .357 has a sharper 'sting', whereas the .41 is more of a rough 'shove'.

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Then the .357 probably is better, granted the .41 might be "less" punishing on your ears. (one of the reasons I like .44 Spl. and .45 Colt for woods bumming.)

Wow, Iggy! Those old 210gr. really did penetrate.

Iggy said:

I shot a .41 Magnum 210 JHP from a Model 58 at a Ford Bronco that had tried to run me down.

The bullet went through the spare tire, the inch diameter tubing of the spare tire rack on the back of the rig, the tail gate, the back of the seat and destroyed the radio in the dash board.

I use the bullet as a tie tack now.

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Iggy, you are a BAD ...

That is awesome.

attn OP

Please excuse me, but I feel it is possible to over-analyze anything. There are too many variables in life; it's not like taking a ruler and drawing a straight line. Things should be, but often are not.

You have made 2 very good firearm choices. Pick one on any day and carry that one. As the old expression goes, "Make do." I think folks would be surprised how people "made do" in the past with small pocket guns: .32, .22. .25 calibers and they faced the same obstacles each day that you do. Thing was, they had a gun with them, and that's what counted.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

To the OP's Question, if you are looking for an EDC round for Street Carry, I think they are both hot, and I'd be interested in understanding if they are going to expand, or just penetrate and go right through.

I believe that the .41 would have a better chance to expand than the .357. Although the way Modern ammunition is designed and advanced, maybe that .357 would expand appropriately.

For Street Carry, I would kind of recommend .38+P in the Ruger.

The .41 also had a Police Load for Street use that was supposed to be one of the best personal defense rounds ever made, I believe it was ~800-900 FPS. That would take care of Coyotes and other nasty critters too.

The good thing is that between those two, you have some really good options. The .357 can be dialed down and Dialed up as needed, especially with a Ruger.

If you told me I was going to be in a gunfight in 30 seconds, I'd take the 58. A .357 at those velocities is no slouch but a heavier bullet is simply more versatile. Bad guy hides behind a car door? Much rather have the momentum of the heavier projectile.

But if you told me I had to pick any N frame (or similar size revolver) for the same scenario I'd go with a 627 8 shooter. I'm not being hypocritical of my argument above --- 2 more shots on board trumps the caliber advantage IMO.

American1776 said:

Thanks! That's an interesting perspective. I WOULD have thought that the .357 mag tends to penetrate less than a big and heavy hollow point like the 210 gr. 41?

My guess would be that the 125 gr. @ 1,600 ft/s would violently expand, and go roughly 12 inches in the gel. I have no idea what the 41 mag Gold dot would do in gel, but I'd guess it go deeper, more like a heavy 10mm or even a .44 mag. But that's why I ask.

Any thoughts?

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Yes. My thoughts are that you won't know for sure without testing. Live cows or goats would be fairly reliable, but very expensive. FBI protocol would be a reasonable but still expensive 2nd best (?). My guess is that your thinking is correct. For that reason, I would choose the .41. However, both are very good, and perhaps better than most people carry.

Whichever you choose, practice.

There was a scale developed for comparing dangerous game cartridges to each other. I like it for comparing any similar rounds. The Taylor Knock Down (TKD) scale works like this: weight in grains times Diameter in inches, times velocity in feet per second. Divided by 7000, then you get a number to compare. .357 x 125 x 1600 / 7000=10.2 verses .410 x 210 x 1200 / 7000 = 14.76. 10.2 vs 14.76 is a sizable difference! somewhere around 6 is the standard minimum for 180 pound person that isn't drug enraged. 8 to 8.5 is considered to be the point where people will always overcome by the wound (and there are always exceptions!). 45ACP Ball velocity is 11.97 for comparison. I don't think either round will be a problem, but I always lean toward bigger is better! Ivan

I'll put it this way, I never had to shoot twice with the old .41 magnum.

Even that Bronco was a one shot stop..

When the WHP issued Model 66s and 125 grain HPs, and required us to carry them, I felt undergunned. I quit and went back to ranching. That said, now that I'm back in town, my EDC is quite often a Model 19 loaded with 158 gr. SWCs. It's more than enough if I ain't aimin' to shoot through a car or sumthin'.

Iggy said:

I'll put it this way, I never had to shoot twice with the old .41 magnum.

Even that Bronco was a one shot stop..

When the WHP issued Model 66s and 125 grain HPs, and required us to carry them, I felt undergunned. I quit and went back to ranching. That said, now that I'm back in town, my EDC is quite often a Model 19 loaded with 158 gr. SWCs. It's more than enough if I ain't aimin' to shoot through a car or sumthin'.

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So Iggy, for a civilian, that hasa .357 magnum, would you recommend we carry .357 magnum loads, or .38 Spcl +p?

Is your 158 grain magnum load a warm load, or a hot load? I am very interested in what you have to say.

Tom_R said:

So Iggy, for a civilian, that hasa .357 magnum, would you recommend we carry .357 magnum loads, or .38 Spcl +p?

Is your 158 grain magnum load a warm load, or a hot load? I am very interested in what you have to say.

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Tom,
I carry warmish .357s or +P in the model 19., but in an air weight K frame and J frames use standard 38s.

13 years of shooting that Model 58 on my days off was tougher on my wrists than it was on the gun. Recoil is cumulative.

I'd think the .357 so loaded is a proven stopper of man, given its history in LE. The .41 has much less data, and most derived from a downloaded example.
The balance of caliber AND platform really leans me toward the 58 and .41, it'll do the job of S/D against peoples about as good as the .357, plus handle a number of other contingencies perhaps better.

The .41 gets the nod, because you're in a far more rural area. You can do anything the .357 Magnum can do, and more! You may not be required to shoot the BG as often, either! If your'e confronted by a heavier, more resistant/resiliant target, the .41 Magnum will get the jobe done.