AK-47

I'm not sure where everyone is getting these accurate problems. It's not a sniper rifle and wasn't ment to be one. They have great accuracy on man size targets at 400 - 500 yards....center mass. Their accuracy is no different than that of a FAL or a G3.

If one wants to bench it and shoot little sniper like groups then it's the wrong rifle for that. Anyone who thinks it's not accurate I dare to stand 400 yards away. Problem is most people use the cheapest ammo possible and sight them in wrong
 
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I'll try to find some more pics

Here is 80 yards with LAPUA ammo benched
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200 yards standing rapid fire. Red dot
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Duuh, what exactly are ya tryin' to say, Arik? Are you sayin' dat I spent $1,300 on a BCM AR15 fer nuthin'? Iff'n dats what yer sayin........anyone wanna buy a BCM middie? :D

But seriously, your point is noted, to a point, at least.




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Duuh, what exactly are ya tryin' to say, Arik? Are you sayin' dat I spent $1,300 on a BCM AR15 fer nuthin'? Iff'n dats what yer sayin........anyone wanna buy a BCM middie? :D

But seriously, your point is noted, to a point, at least.




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Lol no. I just didn't feel like editing my previous post. BCM makes great rifles. It's just that while both are rifles and both shoot a center fire rifle bullet, the way they are used are slightly different and how they are sighted in is different as well.
 
People bash AKs accuracy all the time but the criteria they are using to do that is not what the AK was built for. It was not built to shoot sub MOA groups. It was made to reliably hit man sized targets at bad breath range to 400 yards.

Most people cannot out shoot their rifles. Most people cannot shoot their rifles to the potential unless they are strapped into a bench with the wind just right on a sunny day etc... but they still want a rifle that is going to shoot sub MOA.

Personally I love the AK platform for what it is and don't ask or expect it to do something it is not.
 
I would chose an AR over an AK for your intended purposes, but I am of the perspective a rifle has fairly limited practical applications in civilian self-defense roles such as when you have a lengthy lead time and/or have taken a fixed position such as in a safe room or similar scenarios. 5.56/.223 makes more sense than 7.62 x 62 for a home defense carbine or "urban rifle" irregardless of which platform is chosen. I think first getting a high capacity semi-automatic pistol for home and carry would probably be more useful than a rifle for the scenarios that would be most probable.

And keep in mind that active shooter cases and terrorist attacks although high profile media stories, are extremely rare here. The scenarios civilians are most likely to encounter(armed robberies, physical assaults, muggings, car-jackings, rape attempts, home burglaries) can all generally be resolved effectively with what you already have. As a civilian, it is not your job/responsibility to proactively respond, engage and pursue like the Military/Police.

I asked Massad Ayoob his opinion on AK's. Here's his response...

"Generally clunky, mediocre accuracy, crappy ergonomics. The best AK I've seen is the American version by Arsenal, Inc. (don't have the address handy, but Google should, I think they're in Vegas.) Their .223 version is particularly sweet. However, prices are comparable to low end ARs like the DPMS Sportical, which is a much better rifle, or the Ruger Mini-14 , ditto."

And here's a quote from Clint Smith from the 2008 issue of American Handgunners Personal Defense magazine.....

"There is somewhat of a myth promoted that an AR or AK rifle is mandatory for personal defense. For the cops and military, in the infantry-like environments in which they function, I think a rifle is helpful. For civilians, the need for a combat rifle could be a reality, but I often think it is simply a well-developed sense of something else. The public-some of them-sort of wants to play army or cop if they can and buying the gear helps make the dream come true."
 
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Before the AR and AK guys start throwing rocks at each other let me propose something else for the OP. Quick handling, light, accurate home defense/shtf rifle? Lever action! I bought a Marlin in 44 mag and love it. I wouldn't hesitate to grab it for any "social situation" and would only fall short up against a AR/AK, and at that point I'm calling the Marines!
 
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I own a Polish AK and a Chinese SKS and I'll tell you what makes them special, the 7.62X39 round they shoot. not a pipsqueak with near 30-30 numbers and the recoil is almost addictive.


Old school AK.
 

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I would chose an AR over an AK for your intended purposes, but I am of the perspective a rifle has fairly limited practical applications in civilian self-defense roles such as when you have a lengthy lead time and/or have taken a fixed position such as in a safe room or similar scenarios. 5.56/.223 makes more sense than 7.62 x 62 for a home defense carbine or "urban rifle" irregardless of which platform is chosen. I think first getting a high capacity semi-automatic pistol for home and carry would probably be more useful than a rifle for the scenarios that would be most probable.

And keep in mind that active shooter cases and terrorist attacks although high profile media stories, are extremely rare here. The scenarios civilians are most likely to encounter(armed robberies, physical assaults, muggings, car-jackings, rape attempts, home burglaries) can all generally be resolved effectively with what you already have. As a civilian, it is not your job/responsibility to proactively respond, engage and pursue like the Military/Police.

I asked Massad Ayoob his opinion on AK's. Here's his response...

"Generally clunky, mediocre accuracy, crappy ergonomics. The best AK I've seen is the American version by Arsenal, Inc. (don't have the address handy, but Google should, I think they're in Vegas.) Their .223 version is particularly sweet. However, prices are comparable to low end ARs like the DPMS Sportical, which is a much better rifle, or the Ruger Mini-14 , ditto."

And here's a quote from Clint Smith from the 2008 issue of American Handgunners Personal Defense magazine.....

"There is somewhat of a myth promoted that an AR or AK rifle is mandatory for personal defense. For the cops and military, in the infantry-like environments in which they function, I think a rifle is helpful. For civilians, the need for a combat rifle could be a reality, but I often think it is simply a well-developed sense of something else. The public-some of them-sort of wants to play army or cop if they can and buying the gear helps make the dream come true."

He's definitely not the person to ask. It's like asking a Glock guy what he thinks of SAA. First Arsenal imports. They don't make American AKs. Their import Bulgarian AKs. Made by Arsenal Bulgaria. They did do some Russian Saigas as well. Prices are double what a DPMS is but at the time he said it they may have been similar. The quality is leaps and bounds better. In the AR world DPMS isn't considered a good rifle, at least not by those who do any kind of serious shooting. Arsenal rifles are top notch when it comes to their metal and build. 223 AK tend to be the red headed step child. They are export only and no military uses them although a few have toyed with the idea, usually special forces types. Polish Archer is the only 556 military AK that I can think of. One can argue GALIL as well but it's no longer made in any mass quantity and it's kinda an copy of a Fin Valmet which is based on an AK. The galil is used to some degree by Estonian troops (go figure). Anyway ...... Arsenal is anything but cheap or low end. Ayoob may know guns in general but he has no experience with AKs

Btw Fins still use their AKs as front line rifles
 
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I previously posted recommending a Colt AR15, but if you are set on an AK, I noticed you mentioned an under folder. I strongly recommend you get a fixed stock, or quality side folding stock instead. The combloc under folder is very uncomfortable for shooting. It's only virtue is compactness when folded IMHO. And I have owned and shot a couple of the under folders, the fixed stock AK's were much better.
 
Here's my pick of all the AKs, the original pre ban Poly Tech Legend.
I'm lucky that I bought it new back before the ban when they were
priced at about 50% more than the stamped Chinese AKs because
there's no way I would pay what they sell for these days. If I didn't
have an AK or AR and wanted one today I would just buy a quality
AR like the Colt. Easier and cheaper than trying to buy a good AK
and the AR is more user friendly. I have a few of each.
 

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SKS prices are low right now. If money is an issue, swap out a few parts and you have a reliable rifle with a 20 or 30rd mag in 7.62x39mm for half to a third the price of an AK or AR.

Steel cased 7.62x39mm is cheaper than brass cased .223, about the same as steel cased .223, but not every AR will like steel cased ammo whereas every Commie gun seems to do fine on it.

You could also buy an M1A, give it a girl's name, and sleep with it. There are many like it but that one is yours...
 
I have both AR and AK and if I need to use either of these for its intended purpose I'll take the AK every time. It's very simple, very reliable, very durable and very low maintenance, and the 7.62x39 is the ideal cartridge. The 1mm stamped receiver will serve you just fine, just like it serves the Russian military. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a de-milled kit gun built on a No Dak Spud receiver and even better if built on a kit with an original barrel before the ATF decided that original barrels can no longer be included with de-milled kits. If you need optics, replace the gas tube with an Ultimak gas tube/rail, install an Aimpoint Micro and you will have the best fighting utensil fit for any occasion.
 
Not accurate ak/akm saiga??

My Russian Izmash Saiga Sporter in 308win. with 16" barrel using south African surplus 308 ball ammo at 100yds no scope will shoot constantly 1 1/2" groups. I read on the Saiga site with better new ammo 1" MOA is possible. Lube your Ak with moly it's a totally different gun. Put some on the trigger sear. It's been noted the scoped Saiga 308/16" is hitting gongs at 500+yards.
I haven't tried my 223/16" and 308/22" Saiga yet. Both are scoped with BDC bullet drop compisation we dope the scope to the range finder. Somewhere the 308/16" accuracy will drop off and the 308/22" will pick up where the 16" barrel falls off.

The Russians @ Izmash designed the Saiga to be more accurate than its Ak variants. They admitted the USA calibers of 223/308 to be more accurate than the Russian calibers. They think it's the design of our brass case.

Like I said if you want the best rifle in 7.62x39 the sks is it.
 
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