Today I ran across a super clean T serial numbered 68 vintage Belgian built Browning Hi-Power for sale that is tugging at my wallet. The gun came from an estate and has to be in 97% condition. It's a beauty. One of the things I like about the gun is that it wears target sights. ( Rear is adjustable and marked "Micro" and the front is a (3/8"?) tall partridge type with serrated face.) However, I don't think they are original so likely detract from the value of the gun.
I can own the gun w a couple sets of (equally mint) grips and 3 mags for $825 . It's calling me but admittedly I don't need it or even know how much I would shoot it.

Thoughts on value, purchasing etc. Welcome.

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Dave

Oh, Dave:

You know you're in trouble when you say things like: "I don't need it, or know how much I'd use it". The Browning Hi-Power is an iconic handgun. I wanted one for years, and got my Mk-III with box, and documents for a song - if I recall correctly, I paid around $500.00 for it. I don't know enough Hi-Powers to tell you if yours is original or not, but I think the value is a bit high. I'd offer $650.00 and see if they'll bite.

Besides my H&K P-7, my Hi-Power is my most accurate 9mm handgun. Hi-Powers just seem to sit well in your hands - they just feel like they were meant to be there.

Good luck,

Dave

Be aware that those "partridge" sights can sometimes fly off.

Sounds like a great gun but I would offer less also. Good luck with your decision

One thing I would make sure of is that it has the external extractor not the internal one. I am not sure what year they changed it over but if you have an internal extractor break first of all they are very hard to find and second they are even harder to tune correctly. Just my .02.

Good luck
Pete

I have one that sounds like a match. It is an FN and a shooter with adjustable sights. Price sounds a little high to me. If condition is excellent I would agree with previous advice to offer $650 and see what happens. Buy it up to $700. Good luck.

If you don't already own at least one Hi-Power this could be your opportunity to rectify that.
I would offer them $650, but be willing to go to $725 if necessary - considering the condition you say it's in.
Happy shooting!

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Stay protected my friends.

It's my understanding that particular firearm is top shelf quality.
What I find amusing is the "high power" name. Very deceiving.
A 9mm?...I mean c'mon, it's not a 454 Casul

I will dissent and say that is probably a fair price, T series HPs are considered the best of the crop from a collector's standpoint. Forged frame, good finish, external extractor, and it still has the original P35 design without barrel bushing changes, barrel hood changes, etc that the later guns had. (Although the cast guns are much stronger, both in frame and slide - different heat treatment you see). If it comes with the original grips, three original commercial 60's era Belgian mags (these are also hard to find, now), and the black leather soft case, all in 97% condition, then I would be tempted. It's also a matter of whether you want to have the adjustable sights, some versions of them can indeed fly apart, if anything this would reduce the value to me especially if you want to keep the gun in original shape. I have a mid 60s HP with fixed sights original blonde grips and leather case, in 97% condition and I can tell you I bought it from the original owner, and that I paid more than $850 for it. It is a gem but only likes long bullet types. Don't buy it as a nightstand gun or a target gun, but a "just cause" kind of gun, kind of like a nice mechanical watch. It does a lot of things well but is the best at none of them.

The Hi Power is a must have classic. If you can swing a deal snatch it up!

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Stay safe people!

I have bought a Belgium GP35 recently and have done a little market research. Well worn Israeli High Powers have now sold out at $479 plus shipping, used commercial Belgian Brownings in good condition sell for $700 to 900 and the T prefix is at the higher end.
The black zippered gun case is made out of plastic, not leather, but adds to the value.

Mine is a Belgian gun from 1988.

Photos would help here...but if you continue to think about it, this may be a clue as to whether you should buy it .

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

The sights may be original because the original sights did sit pretty
high. A photo would help. If they are original the gun would likely
sell for more than the asking price on GB in the condition you describe.
The question is how much is it worth to you?

I've seen good T-series examples going for more than $850, but I'm not sure how those sights affect the value of a High Power from that era. Now we cringe, but back then a lot of people felt that they just HAD to have adjustable sights on a service gun (and a lot of gun writers told them so!). Those T-series are pretty, though. I have a lowly C-series, but it looks pretty good too!.

Thanks Folks, I'm going to go take a second look and maybe leave an offer on the table. After some more research, I'm thinking $825 is fair but not enough to "make me buy it " given it would likely be a safe queen.

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Dave

Oh yeah, I just love my T-Series Browning HP.

The price mentioned is a steal, except for the adjustable sights. Those sights would cause me to turn and run. There are others to be had with proper sights.

To spice things a bit, here are photos of mine (made in 1967):





Curl

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Curly
SWCA #2599; SWHF #626

I'd pass only because of the adj sights. The Micro brand rear and the high front blade just don't do anything for me. Remind me of garage gunsmithed 1911's made up for Bullseye shooting when the guns were $50. The standard fixed sights make the pistol look and shoot just fine.
But that's just my opinion and is worth nothing. You are the customer.

Certainly nothing wrong with the BHP itself, the earlier the post-war production gun the better IMO.
Ring hammer, outside extractor,,,

You might check the pistol to see if the magazine safety has been removed (hammer falls when trigger pulled with the mag out of the gun).
It's a fairly common quick alteration done in attempts to achieve a better trigger pull.
Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but some people like the gun original, and are bothered if someone has been inside it.
Others like the modification being done.
It's good to know wether the feature is there or not for safety sake.

Good luck in your pursuit!

I second that. I don't want any pistol modified to remove a safety feature.

Curl

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Curly
SWCA #2599; SWHF #626

hm.. tuning an internal extractor of the Browning HiPower or a 1911A1/1911 ... remove the old one .. put the new one in. that is all that needs doing if the new extractor is within specs... if it isn't..you might have to put a slight bend in one, by hand.. the original John Moses Browning designed internal extractor has proven to be extremely reliable & easily replaced in well over 5 million 1911/1911A1's and the original Browning High Power...

the extractor design was changed SOLELY because it was cheaper & easier to make ... period.. To replace the newer external style takes a proper sized pin punch, a hammer, a work bench , a small clamp helps too...& a very clean area to work on in case you drop the spring... this is not user friendly repairable in the best of circumstances & in case of one breaking in the field renders the handgun un-useable except as a single shot ... requiring the use of a rod/pencil or ink pen to force the case out of the barrel...until you can get it to a gunsmith or are lucky enough to find the correct pin punch...and have the rest of the tools needed too.

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be safe,enjoylife,journey well

In regards to the magazine safety...In my opinion & that of many others, it would be extremely silly/fool hardy to have such a device on a carry/duty handgun...If I have a cartridge in the chamber & am swapping mags to put a fully loaded mag in place .. I still want it to be able to work..I'm told it was put on originally to please some purchasing agent.. with them being told it could be easily removed if someone didn't like it... I'm betting that 98% of all the BHP's you see with it removed was because a previous owner carried it for self defense...Heck nearly every BHP I've shot has a decent trigger.

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be safe,enjoylife,journey well

Although I prefer the standard sights, I'd definitely buy a nice T Series for that price. I was looking to get one last year, and it seemed like they were all over $1,000...

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NRA Life Member

I sold my hipower for $800. The polished bluing was among the best I've seen. It looked like a fine marble. I couldn't get over the trigger pull and that "shark fin" front sight. I mainly kept it at the time because i was telling myself i was a collector. I soon realized i was a shooter not a collector and couldn't justify keeping it in the safe. My mentality today is ,"shoot it, or sell it!"uploadfromtaptalk1455294784296.jpgit wasnt the best shooting 9 i have. It probably would have been if i didnt own a 9mm 1911! In a semi-auto.

It is not deceiving at all...a handgun that was capable of firing 9mm machine gun ammo {a lot more powerful than SAAMI 9mm today} in 1935. Going back to 1935, when you consider what other handgun had this capability and had a 13 round magazine the "High Power" name is't such a deception after all. There was some surplus Israeli Uzi ammo floating around not long ago...get a box and try it, you'll get the High Power part quick.
Personally, any T series High Power in 95% or better condition is well worth $875.00. I paid that for my Practical back in 2004 and was glad to get it. T series High Powers are like 20 gauge Model 12's, Pre-64 Model 70's and Wingmaster's...after you pass on several you will wish you hadn't when you really decide it's time to get one!!!!!

Are you sure the adjustable target sights aren't factory? I have had many Hi Powers over the years (still have a few left over) and some have had factory adjustable target sights. Some variations actually make them more desirable.

I sold this example with factory "beer can" adjustable target sights last year for considerably more than the asking price of the gun you're looking at. It is a Belgian gun from the early 70's.

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

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Ash

Do the micro sights look like these?



If it is a T series it pretty much has to have an external extractor. T series were made from 1963 to 1972. External extractor arrived in 1962-1963. FN always has some overlap but I have not personally seen a T series with an internal extractor but that does not mean on does not exist.

If you are looking for a safe queen T series as a classic example of a Hi Power I would pass on this gun. The micro sight was a popular modification at one time. I do not own the gun above but one like it. The micro sight is just ok. It is not a great sight I personally prefer a Bomar if I am looking at a vintage adjustable like this one.



IMHO people over pay for T series guns. The T series designation does not really denote a production change. It mainly was an inventory control tool for FN. No changes to the design or production of the parts was changed. What was changed was the process used to blue the guns. Even in 1969 FN was pinching pennies to make more guns faster and at a lower cost.

One of the reasons some many people prize these pistols is because they were the last salt blue BHP pistols which received a lot of hand polishing. Prior to 1962-1963 BHPs were rust blued. In 1969-1970 the C series designation was again more of an inventory tool there are no real changes to the design or function of the gun. What did change is the bluing process. The salt bluing was highly automated. The polishing and bluing was not done with as much hand labor as it was prior to 1969.

So really when one is looking at a T series you are looking a gun with superior bluing and polishing. When a gun is worn or has been altered the "value" of a T series is greatly diminished. Later T series and early C series are identical because they were blued using the same process. IMHO when looking for a T series you want to get a 1968 or older gun in pristine condition, if you are going to pay a premium. Guns before 1969 are the best of the breed. By 1969- 1972 T series is only different than a C series because the serial number is using a different naming convention. The guns are for all intents and purposes the same. This is why I like to examine and evaluate each example of a T or C series gun in person if possible. These days it is not so easy to do so sometimes you just have to pictures posted on the web. This is why I will not buy a T series at a premium price unless the photographs stellar because what you are really paying for is the finish.

Technically the MKIII's are the best of the breed...for strength and durability, anyway.

The wife's next to my 1911.
20141222_152812 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr
20141222_151958 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr

Hers is relatively "high powered."
20141222_132829 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr
It's the smoothest shooting 40S&W I've ever fired. It's certainly not the prettiest of them.

The hammer always comes remarkably close to taking a chunk out of me. That always makes me nervous until I shoot it.

Life's way to short to not heed the call. She's singing a little song to you, calling out to you....BUY , BUY, BUY.

It's now or never, my first high power deal was passed on..... I never had another come along. Go for it !

Gary

FN Herstal is a Belgian company and their native tongue is French. The gun that JMB originally designed for FN which was built around the 15 round magazine designed by FN design Saive was named "Le Grande Rendement" or The High Efficiency. This gun was never produced beyond prototypes for the French pistol trials.

Saive later refined the design after JB passed. The French never adopted the design but the Belgians did. FN named the pistol we call the Browning Hi Power "le Grande Puissance" The High Power. There is a lot of speculation around why it was called the High Power. I have never been able to determine myth from truth regarding that part but IIRC it was not named as such because of the "power" of the 9mm cartridge.

It was marked by FN Herstal as the "Browning 9m/m High Power Automatic Pistol". The Browning name even after his death carried a great deal of marketing appeal. Browning the company later became the importer of the Browning 9m/m High Power Automatic Pistol and started to use the term Hi-Power was used so it would not be confused with the Browning High Powered Rifle which they also sold.

FN continued to use the term High Power to this day. They also designate the pistols MKIII while Browning/FN still uses Hi-Power for US marketing.

Keep in mind that in the first half of the 20th century many European Military forces carried .32 and 7.63 autos......

..... and the 9mm "parabellum" developed by the Germans.... translates to something like "prepare for war".......

.... so maybe in 1900/1930 9mm was "hi-power"

I am biased toward the Hi Power, I just find them a perfect blend of ergonomics, practicality, high capacity, excellent quality and the finest example of John Browning designed sidearms. I have two of them. If the pictures in your post are any indication of the pistol it looks like a great example. Although it is a single action for the first round that is easily dealt with through training. They are very accurate and as an investment you will do well if/when you decide to sell it. The model you have was manufactured in Belgium which is considered more desireable that the assembled in Portugal, Mark III. As for durability/reliability, the SAS used the High Power from WWII until the turn of the century and the FBI HRT Team has also used it for decades. If at all possible you should find one and shoot it to see if it agrees with you and if not just buy it as an investment. You will get your money out it it. I do not think that price is particularly out of line.

I've read that the magazine "safety" was one specification for guns to be entered in the French pistol trials, for which the BHP was originally designed. The theory was that armorers could just drop the magazine before putting the gun on the shelf and be certain that it was inert, rather than having to handle the gun, rack the slide, chase any rounds that ejected, etc., all of which were more dangerous (apparently, at least to the French) than storing a gun with a round in the chamber.

I shot BHPs in IDPA matches when I first began. One had had its mag disconnect removed before I bought it. But the new one I bought came with it. It's a little square plate that sticks out of the back of the trigger and is pushed in (forward) when a magazine is installed. If it is sticking out into the mag well, the trigger doesn't connect to the linkage with the sear, but if it's pushed in or missing, everything works fine. The "problem" is that the little plate slides up and down on the front of the magazine as the trigger is pulled. You can polish the little plate, and the front of the magazines where the plate slides, and even lubricate it, to smooth out the sliding surfaces. But the trigger action is still nicer (IMHO) when the device is removed, and the magazines always drop free when you punch the button. But IDPA rules required that all factory safety devices remain in place, and while I was never checked on it at our club's fairly informal matches, that was one of the reasons I switched to Glocks (before switching to my current K frame - just to keep things on topic for the forum in general )

Parabellum is from the ancient Latin phrase "Si vis pacem, para bellum." If you want peace, prepare for war. In "print" in that form since the 4th or 5th century, but probably traceable back at least as far as Plato's time. (Per Wikipedia.) It is, among other things, the motto of the Royal Navy.

My 1969 C series Hi-Power is fully the equal of any T series pistol I've examined.



Roe

Buy it! Best shooting pistol that I own. It will continue to appreciate in value.

While I'm not up on prices, that the Hi-Power is a first rate carry/home defense/survival gun is not in doubt. Also, the gun is slim through the slide, making IWB carry much more comfy than with a 1911 or a Glock double stack.

As for the 9mm cartridge: while some feel it isn't enough to reliably kill field mice, the FBI and many other LE agencies are returning to the 9mm after a two-decade affair with the snappy .40 S&W.

Nice looking C series.

Here is a pre- T series with the rust blue finish.

If you don't want to buy it , then pM me the contact info for the seller.

That should stimulate some movement...

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Ed

I have read/heard that argument against magazine safeties for many years, and I call 'bunk' on it in a real-life scenario. Are you really going to swap out a partially loaded magazine? Can you realistically keep track of all your shots, save the last one in the chamber, and then load a fresh mag in a 'stressfire' situation? Do you really need to be able to fire a single chambered round? Would you fire that round without a magazine in? If you do fire that round without a magazine in place, the slide will travel forward on an empty chamber, thus entailing you to then insert a loaded replacement magazine and draw back and release the slide to ready the pistol. I think the normal drill of shooting the pistol dry and using the slide release to chamber the first round from a fresh magazine is the most effective.

My favorite semi-auto protection/defensive pistol is a third-gen S&W 908. I have no qualms about the magazine safety, and in fact consider it to provide several safety advantages, over the slim possibility of wanting to fire a chambered round without a magazine in place.

A near mint condition T Series for that price is a very good buy. Without a photo it is hard to say if the sights are OEM. OEM target sights on a T Series are different from the later series pistols. You will kick yourself if you let it go by. Buy it...

I have a Belgian made Argentine contract GP35 (think it was made '60/61) The external extractor isn't that big a deal. That being said you will run into one thing, the side plate that pins the sear lever in place is very, very thin where it was serrated. Mine split and I had to have it fixed because they are beyond impossible to find. Other than that I can't speak highly enough of the BHP. They are a fantastic pistol to shoot both in feel and accuracy.

The gun in question is a pre-68 Browning import. The sights are not original to the gun but are Micro standard sights. Micro also made low mount sights which required milling the slide. The round hammer bites a lot of people, but since they were made that way for thirty years it must not be a major flaw. Removing the magazine safety greatly improves the trigger pull, but it'll never be a "target" trigger. I've owned three, two pre- and one post-68. They're great guns.

Excellent information, but it is worth noting that other than the 69C (as pictured above) all subsequent C series and later models had a spur hammer and not the ring hammer sported by the T series and earlier FN hi powers. This is true even in the years (69-71) when FN was producing both T and C series pistols. They also moved the serial number location starting with the C70 production pistols.

BHPs,properly set up, are lovely guns, and the 9mm has become a serious round nowadays. I EDC a G19, but the BHP keeps saying "Me, me, me!". Best I can say for the Glock is if it was impounded I really wouldn't care.

We are in the Era of the Ugly Gun, and we are poorer for it.

You can't touch a modern full sized pistol for under $700.00. From what i saw it doesn" t sound like a bad price. You said the sights weren't original. I bet the workmanship is by hand and it should at least be worth that in the future or maybe a lot more. Just my opinion. She looks like beauty. No one make anything by hand anymore for less than thousands of dollars

Thoughts on value, purchasing etc. Welcome.[/QUOTE]

I bought one new in the very early 1970's. It didn't have that funny rear sight. About all I remember about it is we used to walk the river banks in Mississippi snake hunting. I could pop those snakes and turtles out in the water in head all day long with that gun.

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Dr. B

Back in the day FireS... we first used revolvers as our duty & off duty handguns... at most they held 6 rounds... but some carried only 5 rounds... I know this is hard for you kids that grew up reading about plastic fantastic to grasp... & it was drilled into us.. that if it was safe to do so to keep our duty revolver loaded up... this was when extra rounds were at best on speed strips, some were carried loose in drop pouches and some officers carried 5 or 6 loose in their pants pockets... This translated over to when we were allowed to carry a semi-auto & it was still drilled into our heads that when a magazine was half empty.. to replace it with a full one... keeping the partial mag safe in a pocket in case it was needed...

This is similar to replacing a bottle on your breathing gear when you are fighting a fire... if there is only 10-20 minutes left on your air tank & even if the bell hasn't started ringing & you are outside.. you get the tank replaced.... with a full one... to do otherwise is to court disaster..

I have never had it happened to me on the last round/ mag safety.. but our instructors pulled up cases where it did happen...

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be safe,enjoylife,journey well

FN always blurred the lines when it comes to production parts and vintages of BHPs. Below is an MKII with modern sights ambi safety and ring hammer.



T series almost always had a ring hammer early Cs sometimes had a ring hammer whenever FN found spare parts other guns had ring hammers LOL.

I currently own 10 BHPs and have owned + or - another 7 and have never paid more than $700 for a stock BHP. Most of them have been under $550. Most recent purchase what this one. Hard chrome.

I hate pistols. I love S&W revolvers. That said I own a Browning 9 and 40. I shoot them a lot. They hit where I point them. They are not for sale. The 9 is the best shooting pistol I have ever shot. Perfect if you have smallish hands.

The original post was years ago, 2003, so surely what I add will have zero impact on the person asking "should I".

I got my Browning HP in the late 60's. Every once in a while I'll take it with me on elk hunting trips in areas where I know there are others walking around looking for opportunities to tag (steal) an animal someone else dropped. Glad that I never had to use it under those circumstances. Unlike other Browning pistols and revolvers I acquired since then when shooting the HP it can bite skin in the thenar space (webbing that connects the area between the thumb and index finger). I've had more experienced pistol users demonstrate how to avoid that from happening, but I don't have the same issue (ever) with other Browning. I chalk it up as a classic quality pistol that shoots flawlessly (never jams, with factory or home loads) but is being used by a hand that it doesn't fit.

Hi-Power refers to the 13 Round magazine.

Every collection deserves one. They are fine weapons.