W. W.Greener

Cyrano · Mar 13, 2016

I have my great-grandfathers duck gun, a W. W. Greener 12 bore with 30 inch barrels. It must weigh almost 15 pounds; can't imagine swinging it to keep up with a bird. It has damascus barrels. I'd like to find out the date of manufacture, so if it's an antique, I can avoid a lot of hassle Does anyone know if somewhere in Britain there's a register of what Greeners were made in which years, by serial number?

2152hq · Mar 13, 2016

There's a quick list by groups of year(s) of mfg for WWG. The starting ser# is given for each year or group of years. I don't know of a yr by yr break down. Might help place it in the Antique catagory or not.
Scroll down the page to the WWG info on the Double Gun site
Double Barreled Shotguns, High Grade Shotgun dates of production doublegunshop.com - shotgun gun firearm SxS Side-by-side

You can also for a fee and a few pictures submitted right to WWG have them search their original factory ledgers.
They have kept records on every gun they've made since 1829.
Info here:
Information

model70hunter · Mar 14, 2016

Cyrano said:
I have my great-grandfathers duck gun, a W. W. Greener 12 bore with 30 inch barrels. It must weigh almost 15 pounds; can't imagine swinging it to keep up with a bird. It has damascus barrels. I'd like to find out the date of manufacture, so if it's an antique, I can avoid a lot of hassle Does anyone know if somewhere in Britain there's a register of what Greeners were made in which years, by serial number?

I have my Grandfather's Trapdoor 45-70 and gave his White powder Wonder 12 to my son.

It is very nice to own something family as old as your Greener. So it is heavy and imagine how difficult swinging it in a boat might be and 4 generations ago men were of smaller stature. Maybe that is why they say men of past generations were real men.

Hope you can track down the info. It'll be interesting to read.

Frank46 · Mar 14, 2016

While checking with Greener ask them if they still proof test old shotguns with Damacsus barrels. If it fails proof well there isn't much you can do about it. But if it passes proof and they stamp the data on your shotgun water table. It's not unusual for someone to come in and have a 100 years old firearm proofed. Something to think about.Frank

Bill Bates · Mar 14, 2016

Frank46 said:
While checking with Greener ask them if they still proof test old shotguns with Damacsus barrels. If it fails proof well there isn't much you can do about it. But if it passes proof and they stamp the data on your shotgun water table. It's not unusual for someone to come in and have a 100 years old firearm proofed. Something to think about.Frank

Guns in the U.K. aren't proofed by the manufacturer; they are proof in government proof house. one in Birmingham and another in London. They still proof Damascus barrels guns and they nitro proof this guns. You will often find nitro proofed Damascus guns. Their are people still shooting Damascus guns regularly.

Unfortunately shipping a gun to England for proofing is rather a chore, along with expensive. There is no US proof house. There are handful of gunsmiths and advanced collectors that are very qualified to judge the soundness of an older Damascus barrels gun.

Also, the old Damascus barreled guns were only made to shoot blackpowder or they can only shoot black powder is pure bunk. Damascus barreled guns are a time bomb waiting to go off and are not safe to shoot is also total bunk. Damascus barrels guns were manufactured right up to the late 1930s. Many were originally nitro proofed and never saw a black powder cartridge. Greener did a run of true Damascus barreled guns just a few years ago all passed proof.

I regularly hunt and shoot guns with Damascus barrels. One is a high quality Belgian gun that was originally proofed with and for nitro powder. They other is a Parker manufactured in 1924. It was proofed with the same loads as the best Parker fluid steel guns. Both guns are sound and unaltered.

With the old Greener I would recommend finding a gunsmith qualified to judge a double gun, especially one with Damascus barrels. Having an old double evaluated is wise Damascus or fluid steel.

154657739.qiFJO3NP.gunandbirds202_28_14.jpg

and just for fun last Friday we took a friends a fluid steel barreled Francotte 4 Gauge out to shoot. What a treat.

model70hunter · Mar 14, 2016

and just for fun last Friday we took a friends a fluid steel barreled Francotte 4 Gauge out to shoot. What a treat.

[/QUOTE]

Bill, thanks for this information. It is great. I haven't owned a side by side in years, been tempted but none I couldn't walk a way from. Once I traded for a Parker A grade 2 bbl set. It was made in 1904 I believe. It was a 2 frame size gun. The original bbls, damascus, looked new and not used much if any. IT was M-F choked. The second set had been sent to Italy at some point and fluid steel bbls were used, 26" Imp and Imp mod. I'm sure it was someones bird gun.

I found some Navy arms black powder 12 gauge ammo in an LGS that was closing up. I bought all he had cheaply, 8 or 10 boxes of #6. I used the Damascus bbls. It was a lot of fun to blow smoke and look around it to see a bird fall. Mostly I was using pen raised chukars for dog training. I let them get down the road a ways before I shot them so the dog didn't have to retrieve pieces.

I mentioned older generation guys were called real men when speaking about a 10-15 pound shotgun Cyrano got from his great grandpaw. The 4 gauge in the pic is really a mans, mans gun. Imagine loading that full tilt and cutting a hole through a bunch of ducks. Wow.

Hows it on quail?

Cyrano · Mar 14, 2016

Thanks, 2152hq, The Sn is 5182 which puts it well before the earliest listing on your list: 1878. I guess I'd have no trouble shipping it as an antique.

I don't intend to shoot it, although as a boy I remember my parents shooting it with high brass duck loads! I plan to donate it as well as two other of his guns I have to our family archives.

6518John · Mar 14, 2016

model70hunter said:
and just for fun last Friday we took a friends a fluid steel barreled Francotte 4 Gauge out to shoot. What a treat.

I have seen smaller artillery pieces--far smaller!

DWalt · Mar 14, 2016

The problem with a Damascus barrel is that it not made of homogeneous steel, but rather twisted strands which are welded together. While the barrel may be strong enough to safely withstand smokeless pressures if in sound condition, if the barrel is corroded or pitted, the weld strength could be compromised and fail upon firing. Long ago, I worked with a man who lost three fingers on his left hand when a Damascus-barreled double gun let loose. When they fail, it is often under the handguard. If you do intend to use it, I would suggest you let someone who knows what he's doing examine the barrel first for any obvious defects.

model70hunter · Mar 16, 2016

If one is interested in the history of Damascus barrels go to this link. I specifically mentions Greener's book an english damascus which is 3 rods twisted.

Damascus-Barrels Forge Welded Barrels Research & Information

I read that Double Gun Journal wrote something up on proofing damascus. 8 years ago it cost about $340 total to send a gun to
Birmingham, England for proofing. Per one blog.

cmore · Mar 16, 2016

As I recall the DGJ article shot up to 3X proof loads thru damascus
bbls. No problem. You just cant shoot steel shot loads.
Also the bbls must be sound. Test by hanging them from string
and tapping with plastic like screwdriver handle. If they ring they
are OK. But a thunk means they have separated somewhere.
Love them old doubles.

Bill Bates · Mar 16, 2016

cmore said:
As I recall the DGJ article shot up to 3X proof loads thru damascus
bbls. No problem. You just cant shoot steel shot loads.
Also the bbls must be sound. Test by hanging them from string
and tapping with plastic like screwdriver handle. If they ring they
are OK. But a thunk means they have separated somewhere.
Love them old doubles.

Ringing the barrels is a good indication that rib soldering or brazing is sound not that barrels are safe. With the barrels you also want to know the lumps are sound; have the chambers been lengthened which can be a problem; what is wall thickness with minimum about .020 inch; if there is any pitting; dents, or worse bulges before determine they are safe.

Pitting can be a real killer. If the bore is pitted it will need to be honed until the pits are removed. Honing may take the wall thickness down below the minimum safe wall thickness. If that happens the gun is done.

When it comes to old shotguns more than anything else you are buying barrels. Barrel issues can go from a cheap fix to a fix that quickly runs into the thousands on a double gun.

W. W.Greener

Cyrano

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