About a month or so ago, I ended up buying a Sig Legion SAO. I've liked it a lot. The trigger is quite great, I love the X5 undercut, and I also like it much better than my tuned X5 Allround. I like this gun so much that it's my bedroom gun. Before, my idea of a bedside gun would be a plastic gun tailored for me that I wouldn't miss if the police took it. If I lived in a high crime area, I'd probably still do that. However, since I haven't had to use a gun in anger, I might as well get something I liked and be able to put 38 rounds of pain right where it's needed even if I'm hungover/groggy/sleepy/whatever.
Until that point, my favorite 9mm I had was my CZ75 SA tuned by Matt Mink from Automatic Accuracy. I've had the gun for about 8 years before I sent it out and I've regretted not sending it earlier. I've loved CZs for a while. I think if John Browning had lived another 20 years, that's the gun he would have made. It's like a modern Browning Hi Power with the same proportions and a proper length beavertail. I think this gun is probably the main reason I haven't bought a used Hi Power and sent it off for custom work.
So, the obvious thing that's required is a shoot out. A couple of things:
1) Both guns have lasers on them. I've got a TLR-4 on the Sig and Crimson Trace grips on the CZ. Something of note is getting the laser grips fit was part of the custom work. Dad wanted a set of laser grips. Of all the guns, the CZ had the worst sights and we decided the CZ should get them. You cannot use Laser Grips on a CZ with an Ambi safety because that's where the laser light goes. You also can't pull off one side of the safety because the fire control group starts wiggling around and makes the gun unsafe. To fix that, Mink fashioned a spacer from another ambi safety.
2) I didn't use the lasers for this test because I don't have the laser sighted in on the Sig. It's close enough that it can provide "minute of bad-guy" in the middle of the night, but that's about all.
So let's get to it.
1) Cost.
I'm not counting the laser grips in this. Dad likes it, but I'd be just as happy without them. This also will affect another score later on.
The Sig is pretty easy to figure out. Sticker is about $1,400. Street price is more like $10-1,100.
The CZ is practically spec'd like this:
http://czcustom.com/new-firear...ow-sa-black-9mm.html
The difference with mine is a 13# mainspring and an extended firing pin for a lighter trigger pull and will ignite anything in 9mm. Personally, if you do get any custom CZ, spend the extra $40 to get the firing pin. You will not regret it.
Winner: CZ. Simple math. $1100 vs $850.
2) Triggers.
I was very skeptical about the Legion SAO trigger. I had no doubts that the mechanics would feel great, but I was VERY disappointed that the X5-style trigger was replaced with the one in all the units. Most of that angst was from the factory trigger in the CZ75 SA. The newer ones are better, but the older ones like mine had more of a forward angle with a slight bend in the middle of the trigger. The result was a trigger that your finger would slip up and down. You couldn't get a consistent trigger pull because it always changed depending where your finger ended up. And I thought the Legion was going to repeat this mistake.
Thankfully, it couldn't be farther from the truth and I could not be happier. Even though the trigger has a forward angle to it, it's a flat angle. There's no bend to it. When you pull it to the break, it's a flat 90 degrees. Speaking of the break, it's a fantastic wall that's as almost as good as some of the nicer 1911s. In addition, the reset is one of the best I've used. I will call Sig a flat out LIAR by saying this is a 5# trigger. My Springfield Professional has a 5# trigger and it's much heavier. My 4# trigger from my Les Baer Monolith is heavier. This thing is a 3.5# at MOST. I'm not complaining about it. If you're going to fib, it's always better to underpay and overdeliver and Sig did it almost perfectly.
Almost. If you could stand to watch Colion Noir's review of the gun and sit through 6 minutes of pontification about the gun being a "Tactical Dragqueen" and all that ****, there is one thing I will agree with him about. Compared to the tank-like build and luxury-car finish, it does feel flimsy. It doesn't wiggle or bend, but it's very thin and narrow.
My Custom CZ was almost transformed into a completely different gun, and most of it is in the trigger. Mine has the flat CZ Custom SAO trigger, and there's nothing remotely close to "flimsy" on this one. This is a flat piece of bar-stock that will outlive the cockroaches from the nuclear apocalypse, much less anything you can think of doing to it.
With the tuning that Matt did, this trigger is even lighter. I'm thinking between 2-3#. This is a competition trigger. There's not a lot of movement with the trigger, however the reset doesn't compare with the Sig. There's no difference between the reset on the trigger and the full trigger motion. Another downside is with a light trigger, there's very little wall. I don't know if it's a downside in the trigger mechanism itself compared to the newer Omega system or the fact the trigger is that light, but I prefer having a definite wall before the break.
In the perfect world, I'd have the Sig guts with the CZ trigger, but it is what is.
Winner: Sig
3) Sights.
We're on two different streets on this one. One thing I had to get over is I have really gotten use to tall 1911-style sights with a deep U-notch. Both of these are FAR smaller with nowhere near a .145 notch to line things up.
The Sig has the newer XRay sights and I love them. I can take or leave the tritium rears, but they stay in the background. Someone else will have to chime in on if the front sight has fiber optic material on the front or if it's luminescent paint like the Trijicon HDs. I can't tell, but I love them.
The stock CZ sights were deplorable. I didn't mind the 3 dot luminescent sights, but the dots were SO small and the sights were SO small they might as well be blackout sights. The ones I have on now are a bit better. It's a CZ fiber front with CZ Tactical Rear sight.
They're better, but I don't like how shallow the notch is. The Sig sights are about as high as the CZ, and you have a much deeper notch to place the sights. I don't think CZ Custom has made a deeper sight. They will mill the slide to a Novak cut, but that is not cheap and would also add unnecessary cost to the gun when they can cut the sight deeper.
Winner: Sig
4) Grip
I love what Sig has done with the Legion. My favorite feature of the X5 series was the undercut. It's what I love on my Wilson Combat. The control are nice and smooth. The checkering is fantastic.
I don't have a picture of the checkering under the trigger guard, but I love it and I love it exactly where it is. Some people have complained that the checkering doesn't come far enough back. I'm not one of them. My right middle finger would get so chapped and chewed up if it was that far back that I'd probably sell the gun. I like where it is forward because I shoot weak hand forward like competition shooters. I get plenty of grip and I can have my thumb either on the takedown lever or even farther on the rail and enjoy everything about it.
The grips are perfect. I like the E2 grip, but they're not aggressive enough. This things are probably the closest to checkered E2 grips and feel fantastic.
The CZ is no slouch. John Browning probably came up with the perfect grip when he made the Browning Hi Power. CZ made the gun feel even better. If Glock was smart enough to copy this grip in the 80's, he'd be even richer and nobody would hate Glocks. There's no other gun that fits the hand better than a CZ75.
There are some problems with this gun in regard to grip. Like I said above, Dad wanted some Laser Grips. I cannot stand them. I'm not a fan of rubber grips while there's some "checkering" on them, they are extremely slick. It might not be that if there was checkering on the gun, but there's no checkering. You can't checker CZs because there's not enough material. I love that the CZ Shadow 2 has had more material added like on the Tanfoglios, and I'm also eager to play with one because it fixes every problem I have with this gun. In the meantime, I also want to throw some aggressive G10s on this gun.
I don't like it, but I'm going to call it.
Winner: Tie. The way it's set right now would be a win for the Sig, but the CZ isn't setup the way I want it. It can be better, but I don't know how much.
5) Accuracy.
Here's the bit that some like and some don't. I'm also going to leave this unscored. The first two are from the Sig, the last one is from the CZ.
What I will say is with the current setup, the Sig will be more repeatable and help you get better. Right now, the CZ has a lot of potential. I really want to get some more aggressive grips. Right now, the CZ is the faster gun to shoot. It has a very flat recoil and I can get some serious speed. I know everyone harps on the Sig's high bore axis, but with the standard Sig length, the gun is very well balanced and returns to where you left it. I like it more than my 5" X5 I sold because at that length it does get flippy.
Overall Winner: Sig The big thing overall is I love the Sig straight from the box. It's as perfect as a gun can get, and the trigger's "flimsyness" is only flimsy compared to the trigger of the CZ.
What I'm very interested in seeing is if CZ does a Shadow 2 SAO. The price gap will shrink dramatically, but I can't see how the Shadow 2 won't be better than my 10 year old CZ.
As an aside, does any of the Tanfoglio higher end models use the small frame like the CZs, or are they all the large frame like the lower end ones?
Until that point, my favorite 9mm I had was my CZ75 SA tuned by Matt Mink from Automatic Accuracy. I've had the gun for about 8 years before I sent it out and I've regretted not sending it earlier. I've loved CZs for a while. I think if John Browning had lived another 20 years, that's the gun he would have made. It's like a modern Browning Hi Power with the same proportions and a proper length beavertail. I think this gun is probably the main reason I haven't bought a used Hi Power and sent it off for custom work.
So, the obvious thing that's required is a shoot out. A couple of things:
1) Both guns have lasers on them. I've got a TLR-4 on the Sig and Crimson Trace grips on the CZ. Something of note is getting the laser grips fit was part of the custom work. Dad wanted a set of laser grips. Of all the guns, the CZ had the worst sights and we decided the CZ should get them. You cannot use Laser Grips on a CZ with an Ambi safety because that's where the laser light goes. You also can't pull off one side of the safety because the fire control group starts wiggling around and makes the gun unsafe. To fix that, Mink fashioned a spacer from another ambi safety.
2) I didn't use the lasers for this test because I don't have the laser sighted in on the Sig. It's close enough that it can provide "minute of bad-guy" in the middle of the night, but that's about all.
So let's get to it.
1) Cost.
I'm not counting the laser grips in this. Dad likes it, but I'd be just as happy without them. This also will affect another score later on.
The Sig is pretty easy to figure out. Sticker is about $1,400. Street price is more like $10-1,100.
The CZ is practically spec'd like this:
http://czcustom.com/new-firear...ow-sa-black-9mm.html
The difference with mine is a 13# mainspring and an extended firing pin for a lighter trigger pull and will ignite anything in 9mm. Personally, if you do get any custom CZ, spend the extra $40 to get the firing pin. You will not regret it.
Winner: CZ. Simple math. $1100 vs $850.
2) Triggers.
I was very skeptical about the Legion SAO trigger. I had no doubts that the mechanics would feel great, but I was VERY disappointed that the X5-style trigger was replaced with the one in all the units. Most of that angst was from the factory trigger in the CZ75 SA. The newer ones are better, but the older ones like mine had more of a forward angle with a slight bend in the middle of the trigger. The result was a trigger that your finger would slip up and down. You couldn't get a consistent trigger pull because it always changed depending where your finger ended up. And I thought the Legion was going to repeat this mistake.
Thankfully, it couldn't be farther from the truth and I could not be happier. Even though the trigger has a forward angle to it, it's a flat angle. There's no bend to it. When you pull it to the break, it's a flat 90 degrees. Speaking of the break, it's a fantastic wall that's as almost as good as some of the nicer 1911s. In addition, the reset is one of the best I've used. I will call Sig a flat out LIAR by saying this is a 5# trigger. My Springfield Professional has a 5# trigger and it's much heavier. My 4# trigger from my Les Baer Monolith is heavier. This thing is a 3.5# at MOST. I'm not complaining about it. If you're going to fib, it's always better to underpay and overdeliver and Sig did it almost perfectly.
Almost. If you could stand to watch Colion Noir's review of the gun and sit through 6 minutes of pontification about the gun being a "Tactical Dragqueen" and all that ****, there is one thing I will agree with him about. Compared to the tank-like build and luxury-car finish, it does feel flimsy. It doesn't wiggle or bend, but it's very thin and narrow.
My Custom CZ was almost transformed into a completely different gun, and most of it is in the trigger. Mine has the flat CZ Custom SAO trigger, and there's nothing remotely close to "flimsy" on this one. This is a flat piece of bar-stock that will outlive the cockroaches from the nuclear apocalypse, much less anything you can think of doing to it.
With the tuning that Matt did, this trigger is even lighter. I'm thinking between 2-3#. This is a competition trigger. There's not a lot of movement with the trigger, however the reset doesn't compare with the Sig. There's no difference between the reset on the trigger and the full trigger motion. Another downside is with a light trigger, there's very little wall. I don't know if it's a downside in the trigger mechanism itself compared to the newer Omega system or the fact the trigger is that light, but I prefer having a definite wall before the break.
In the perfect world, I'd have the Sig guts with the CZ trigger, but it is what is.
Winner: Sig
3) Sights.
We're on two different streets on this one. One thing I had to get over is I have really gotten use to tall 1911-style sights with a deep U-notch. Both of these are FAR smaller with nowhere near a .145 notch to line things up.
The Sig has the newer XRay sights and I love them. I can take or leave the tritium rears, but they stay in the background. Someone else will have to chime in on if the front sight has fiber optic material on the front or if it's luminescent paint like the Trijicon HDs. I can't tell, but I love them.
The stock CZ sights were deplorable. I didn't mind the 3 dot luminescent sights, but the dots were SO small and the sights were SO small they might as well be blackout sights. The ones I have on now are a bit better. It's a CZ fiber front with CZ Tactical Rear sight.
They're better, but I don't like how shallow the notch is. The Sig sights are about as high as the CZ, and you have a much deeper notch to place the sights. I don't think CZ Custom has made a deeper sight. They will mill the slide to a Novak cut, but that is not cheap and would also add unnecessary cost to the gun when they can cut the sight deeper.
Winner: Sig
4) Grip
I love what Sig has done with the Legion. My favorite feature of the X5 series was the undercut. It's what I love on my Wilson Combat. The control are nice and smooth. The checkering is fantastic.
I don't have a picture of the checkering under the trigger guard, but I love it and I love it exactly where it is. Some people have complained that the checkering doesn't come far enough back. I'm not one of them. My right middle finger would get so chapped and chewed up if it was that far back that I'd probably sell the gun. I like where it is forward because I shoot weak hand forward like competition shooters. I get plenty of grip and I can have my thumb either on the takedown lever or even farther on the rail and enjoy everything about it.
The grips are perfect. I like the E2 grip, but they're not aggressive enough. This things are probably the closest to checkered E2 grips and feel fantastic.
The CZ is no slouch. John Browning probably came up with the perfect grip when he made the Browning Hi Power. CZ made the gun feel even better. If Glock was smart enough to copy this grip in the 80's, he'd be even richer and nobody would hate Glocks. There's no other gun that fits the hand better than a CZ75.
There are some problems with this gun in regard to grip. Like I said above, Dad wanted some Laser Grips. I cannot stand them. I'm not a fan of rubber grips while there's some "checkering" on them, they are extremely slick. It might not be that if there was checkering on the gun, but there's no checkering. You can't checker CZs because there's not enough material. I love that the CZ Shadow 2 has had more material added like on the Tanfoglios, and I'm also eager to play with one because it fixes every problem I have with this gun. In the meantime, I also want to throw some aggressive G10s on this gun.
I don't like it, but I'm going to call it.
Winner: Tie. The way it's set right now would be a win for the Sig, but the CZ isn't setup the way I want it. It can be better, but I don't know how much.
5) Accuracy.
Here's the bit that some like and some don't. I'm also going to leave this unscored. The first two are from the Sig, the last one is from the CZ.
What I will say is with the current setup, the Sig will be more repeatable and help you get better. Right now, the CZ has a lot of potential. I really want to get some more aggressive grips. Right now, the CZ is the faster gun to shoot. It has a very flat recoil and I can get some serious speed. I know everyone harps on the Sig's high bore axis, but with the standard Sig length, the gun is very well balanced and returns to where you left it. I like it more than my 5" X5 I sold because at that length it does get flippy.
Overall Winner: Sig The big thing overall is I love the Sig straight from the box. It's as perfect as a gun can get, and the trigger's "flimsyness" is only flimsy compared to the trigger of the CZ.
What I'm very interested in seeing is if CZ does a Shadow 2 SAO. The price gap will shrink dramatically, but I can't see how the Shadow 2 won't be better than my 10 year old CZ.
As an aside, does any of the Tanfoglio higher end models use the small frame like the CZs, or are they all the large frame like the lower end ones?
