1886 Winchester 45-70 Experience

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SilentKnight

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A couple of days ago I took my 1886 Winchester 45-70 with case hardened receiver, octagon 24 inch barrel, and crescent butt plate to a private shooting area. I was using a fabricated target to verify my sights were still on. The first 3 rounds failed to print on the paper at 50 yards!! After investigating, I discovered I had grabbed the wrong box of ammo and was using 300 grain bullets instead of the 405 grain bullet it was designed for. The 300 grain bullet was printing 8 inches high at 50 yards... the 405 grain bullet was 2 inches high right where I wanted it. The Winchester is good out to 150 yards sighted that way with the 405 grain bullet. The difference in trajectory was illuminating between the 300 grain and 405 grain bullet. Getting to know your 45-70 is challenging as they have a trajectory like throwing a rock at the Moon. To get really good with it, you need to reload to make it affordable. I use the 300 grain bullet in my Marlin Guide Gun that is lighter and more pleasant to shoot. The crescent butt plate on the Winchester gets really painful after 10 rounds. I am having a leather recoil pad made for it. What kind of advice or experience is there in this knowledgeable community for 45-70 shooters?
 
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I can't help you much, but I know someone with an old 1886 chambered in 45-90, and all I could think of when I handled it was: "Man, that butt-plate's gotta hurt!". That particular gun hasn't been fired in decades and may never be.
 
I hunt with same load as you out of my 1895 Marlin. I'm going
back to 322gr cast Hp/ IMR-3031, with Lyman peep rear. I took
all the "extra" wood off my 95. It looks like original now, but in
doing so reduced the butt surface by 1/3. It doesn't have cresant
butt plate but kicks like a mule with the hot 300gr loads, it is
brutal with 400 Barnes max loads. Right now still set up with
scope / for 300gr hp-max. I hate the scope will never put one on a 45/70 again. With cast 0 at 100yd and mark the witness plate
to 250'. The better you can judge distance the better you can
shoot.
 

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I have a 1986 Browning production 1886 in 45-70 (as well as a 1873 Trapdoor carbine, a Shiloh Sharpe's, and a Marlin guide gun) My 1886 is 26" octagon barrel. With a light 320+/- grain bullet, at about 1000 fps it is an incredibly accurate rifle! with my hunting load 405 hard cast at about 2200fps it is unbelievably brutal! but not as brutal as the guide gun with the same load. I have not found a load that the 1886 didn't like and out to 125 yards with most ammos will do 3" or better IF you have it already sighted in.

A friend died and left me his 45-70 loading equipment and ammo. There were 40 rounds of 5744 with a 325 Lyman bullet that were about 900-950 fps that I used in a speed rifle contest at a cowboy shoot. 5 offhand shots as fast as you can go and not miss, I won that day at 3 1/4 seconds, but with the attention on speed I didn't realize how good I shot unit the yelling crowd refocused my attention on the steel plate at 105 yards. I was first shooter so the target was clean, and all 5 shots were in less than 1.5 inches. That rifle is 30 years old this summer and I'm as happy with it today as when I bought it.

My Marlin Guide Gun, is an early blue model with the factory porting. It shoot very well with 300's and 405's at hunting velocity. I have bullets from a Lyman mold that are 530 grains with a monster flat nose and gas checked, I've never tried them in either lever gun, for fear that they wouldn't fit the action, maybe this summer!

Ivan
 
My only experience with a 45/70 lever gun is when I reached my 20 year pension day I thought I would retire and move to the western mountains. In doing so I would need a "Bear Rifle". I purchased a Marlin Model 1895 .45/70 model with the straight butt stock. With 45/70 factory ammo, folks that rifle was a KICKER ! Well, my wife got pregnant, My #4 Son borrowed the 45/70 to hunt deer with and killed a nice buck with it, and informed me that a rule stated that if one killed a deer with Dad's rifle, the rifle then belonged to the hunter. And so ended my experience with the 45/70 cartridge and my retirement plans.
*** The deer that #4 Son shot the bullet went though both deer shoulders, though a six inch thick oak tree, and traveled onward northward. Rumor has it that that 405 grain JSP bullet is now living in Canada under an assumed name.
 
Over the years I have owned a Ruger #3, a Winchester 1886 (same configuration as yours) and a Taylor's repro Sharps (28" octagon) in 45/70.

The Ruger had a "carbine" butt (curved, but not crescent) and was a dream to carry and a horror to shoot. The Sharps has a shotgun butt (wide and relatively flat) and is a dream to shoot and a horror to carry. It converted me from a still hunter to a stand hunter in one season.

The 86 hit both ways: too heavy to carry all day and it killed at both ends.

Winchester and Sharps preferred 405 grain loads, either factory or my cast handloads. Ruger liked 300 grain Remington Express or equivalent handloads.

Only the Sharps remains with me and is due for a trip to the range.
 
You guys need to try some black powder loads like the 45-70 was intended to shoot.

I use 530 grain paper patched bullets over a couple of teaspoons of BP in my Sharps and 405 and 500 grainers in my Trapdoor.
They push you back instead of a sharp smack. They are fun to shoot have brought meat home more than once.

I tried some 300 grainers with modern powder and din't like it a bit.
 
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I'm just curious about this recoil. I know that it's all subjective but would you guys say itts worse than 12 gauge 3 1/2 inch turkey loads? Worse than a 375 H&H? I have done both of those & didn't think either was terrible. I want an 1886 in 45-70 so I envy the OP. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on it.

Cory
 
Drm50 said:
I hate the scope will never put one on a 45/70 again. .
Click to expand...

From the photo, I see your problem. Look where the eyepiece sits in relation to the hammer or trigger. If it moves backward even an inch, you
wear a new crescent shaped scar. I have a lot of 45-70 experience, starting back in the mid 60s with a Springfield. Back then, factory loads were 405 and they hurt. We didn't reload that caliber in those days, so I took refuge in a local gun shop. He loaded up I think 40 new ones at minimal velocity. It took the pain level way down.

So I still loved the caliber, but was wary of it. Along about 1990 I found a 1878 Browning single shot at a gun show. It was kind of expensive, costing all of $400 and it included scope mounts but no scope. I'm guessing because of the recoil and scaring issues. I really wanted that gun and to then pass along the Springfield to my youngest son. So I went home and started reading all the literature/advertising stuff. Remember, back in the last century they used to include information that a buyer could presumably find good. And what I discovered was the Lyman 1-4x had about the longest eye relief available. So I bought one and then moved it as far forward as it would go in the mounts.

That allowed me to stop thinking of my face and begin worrying about the recoil absorbing steel butt plate. The difference is just amazing. And the 45-70 is an accurate caliber. My sight in test is really easy. I find a miller lite can and put it on a gravel hill 100 yards away. I aim at the shield shape on the can and fire. Of course the can tries to head for orbit, but I can walk out and find it. So I set it back up and return to my rifle for a 2nd shot. Then repeat. From a cool barrel, it puts all 3 in the shield shape. A couple of inches, which is good enough for me.

Scope makers offer a range of eye relief. Buy the one that is friendly to your face.
 
It's a great cartridge. I have had 3 bolt actions and 2 levers, a Marlin and a Browning replica carbine.

The Marlin had the same plastic butt plate and butt stock they used on their .30-30's. I loaded up some Remington 510 grain soft points to as hot as the old Lyman #45 manual allowed and then used the rifle as a loaner for people who wanted to borrow a deer rifle. Nobody ever shot more than 2 rounds, most only fired 1 and NOBODY ever asked to borrow a gun from me again.
 
Neither of mine will win any speed contests, a trapdoor Springfield and a Winchester 1885 "Hi-wall" but are a pleasure to shoot with black powder.
 
I have to say my Marlin and a Winchester in .44 mag hurts the shoulder allot more than factory loads out of my 45/70 ported Guide Gun.
 
The reason scope is coming off is not position of eye piece. I had
3 different scopes on it. A K3, Redfield 2 3/4x, and Burris 3x9
now on it. Just don't like scopes on Lever 45/70, or on any lever.
I had a #1 Ruger/ 6x Leupold and have #3 Ruger, 375win/ K4
and scopes on them don't bother me. I have had original Trap
Doors, but always loaded them with BP & cast 405g and iron
sights. I had one of the 1886 remakes NIB, but never shot it. I
also had 1895 remake 405, which was used, I did shoot it a little
At targets. I just can't warm up to remakes,have to have the
originals. Last good 86 I had chance on went for $7200, I bailed
out at $5000. Seems to me on all the big rifles they will kill you
on bench, or target shooting, but in the woods you don't fire that
many shots. I don't notice the recoil when shooting deer. The hardest kicking gun I own is pre 64 m70fw, 308. With 168gr
loads it will print butt plate on your shoulder, in bruise.
 
The butt of the 1886 is thin and crescent with sharp ends (not flat) with a hard metal plate. No comparison to other rifles or shotguns I have fired. The recoil will wear you out. Ten rounds in about 15 minutes (while checking targets) is brutal. The Marlin Guide Gun is a dream to shoot and mine is not ported.
 
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If I may tell a Guide Gun Story; About 17 years ago I was in a large LGS and there were 2 Guide Guns for sale on the used rack. One was marked Unfired! The sales man told me he sold them new the day before, to a pair of friends along with one box of 405 grain Remington ammo. The friends each shot one shot out of the same gun and returned the guns. The said the recoil was unbearable! I bought a used one a few months later and fired medium hunting loads from it and did not think the recoil to be bad. I mentioned that I had never fired a factory round in any 45-70. The sales man handed me a box of 405 Remington ammo with 2 round missing, seeing the missing rounds I laughed and ask if the was the hard kicking ammo, it was and he gave it to me. On my next range session I tried it out in the Guide Gun. I have had Winchester and Marlins chambered in 44 Mag that kicked a lot worse. I guess I wasn't holding it right!

Ivan
 
I have a Browning Model 1886 that I got in 1987, a Springfield Model 1873 rifle, and three Springfield Model 1873 Carbines.

The Browning likes 300 grain copper jacketed bullets. I am impressed with its accuracy, either with factory ammunition or handloads. I can make handloads with much more velocity than factory loads. Also with a lot of recoil.

In order to get accuracy with the Springfield, I have to use a 405 grain hollow-base lead bullet. I only use black powder in the .45-70 cartridges. I can't get 70 grains in modern .45-70 cartridge cases. I get about 65 grains in the cartridges for the rifle. I use 55 grains in the cartridges for the carbines, and then take up the space with Cream of Wheat.

I can shoot the Springfields all day. The recoil from the Browning is brutal. I have considered having a custom stock made using a recoil pad.
 
Many years back I saw an amazing 1886 that had like FIVE custom features. As I recall it was a .45-90, Had deluxe wood, special sights, the case color on the receiver was still nice and it had a half magazine.

It was a relative bargain price too as someone had cut the butt and added a recoil pad. an old, red shotgun pad! I'll bet the previous owner DID shoot it and it had the crescent buttplate.

86's are such a piece of History. Unfortunately unless they have a shotgun butt plate they are tough on the shoulder.
 
Ouch!

cochise said:
I have to say my Marlin and a Winchester in .44 mag hurts the shoulder allot more than factory loads out of my 45/70 ported Guide Gun.
Click to expand...

I had a beautiful Win 92 (Japan) with the crescent plate in 44 mag. Man-that thing was as mean as it was pretty, and I was surprised because I am a 44 mag revolver shooter. I reasoned the greater weight would make it tame to shoot, but that crescent was intolerable-I sold it.
Also-I had an 1895 CB that-when new-I bought some 350 gr JHP +P+ ammo for. I thought-hey, I've shot a lot of stuff...Uh Uh. That thing shook the whole table at the range. I tried to load for it-got down to apx 1600 FPS-but that was still stout (The first +P+ stuff was apx 2200 feet) I was using light bullets-300 gr if I recall-but we never hit it off-sold it and made money on it. (it was not long after Rem bought Marlin) I think my problem is that I am always looking to recapture my experience with the marvelous M-14 at dear old Fort Bragg.
 
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