I saw a fair to good condition Tokarev in a shop Saturday. Just one of a multitude of guns I know little-to-nothing about.

I know the ammo is a necked down round; and I know there is a Russian version of the pistol, plus several others; to include the Chinese type.

The interest that piqued me, is a not uncommon conversion, to .38 super,(?) I heard about, and a price just south of $300. Ammo around $25 a box; modern manufacture.

Hardly any type gun has escaped you guys here, having one; so I thank you for some candid opinions.

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I have a Chinese version in the original 7.62 caliber. I know some of
the Chinese guns made for export were made in 9mm and there were
some conversion kits made. But I have never heard of a Tokarev made
in 38 Super or of one being convered to the Super round. The 38
Super is a hot ctg with a semi rimmed case and I frankly doubt a
conversion of the Tokarev to 38 Super is feasible. Forget the
conversion idea but realize that there are some original Tokarevs out
there floating around. If the one you saw is a vintage original
Russian Tokarev it would be a steal at less than $300. If original it
will have no external safety at all.

All Toks are basically the same. Any safety lever you see had been installed for legal importation, otherwise they don't come with any safety. The Yugoslav Tok has a longer grip with a longer mag that holds one extra round.

Chinese made 9mm version as well. There are also new production Serbian 9mm

I doubt it's a Russian Tok since they Haven't been imported in decades and hold a premium price, especially ones that don't have an added safety.

Don't know about the 38 conversion

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Actually the Chinese offered a version with the 38 super conversion. If my memory is correct Navy Arms was the main (only?) importer of this version. I have the conversion barrel out of one of these sets (got it from a friend who no longer had the pistol but still had the box with the extra barrel and manual). I have installed it in my chinese 213 series Tokarev and it works fine.

I don't believe it was a new idea when made, I remember reading about 38 Super conversions being done back in the 60's and 70's. I believe the author J. B. Wood wrote about one in one of his gunsmithing articles from that era. The Tokarev is a simple, strong Browning design and 38 Super pressures are actually less than 9mm+P pressures and probably comparable to 7.62X25 (my SAAMI chart doesn't have specs for that old but hot round). I like mine though I still shoot the 9mm barrel more as it works great with the cheap steel case ammo and I don't worry about lost cases (can't stand losing brass).

I think a .38 Super (or .38 Auto) Tok would be pretty simple - maybe just a new barrel and probably a stronger recoil spring. The 7.62 Tok magazine would probably work OK as is. I don't remember seeing one. Also 9mm Tok barrels could simply be re-chambered for the .38 round.

I once saw an S&W M39 with a barrel rechambered for .38 Super. Guy said it worked OK. He just lengthened the 9mm chamber with a 3/8" drill bit, or so he said. Seems like that would make for a rough chamber wall.

Thanks for chiming in guys.
I have been back to look more closely; and at $225.00 all-in, with generous lay-a-way, I plunked down some money.

Honestly I still was only able to determine the function, external surface and bore condition to be good.
I've got some more reading and internet work to do figuring out what manufacturer it was.
I read there are at least 50 countries that have used this as their military sidearm, and 6 or so manufacturers.

I paid attention to what you guys already noted. It does not have an external safety. But does that for sure make it a Russian Tokarev, or Romanian or ??

It's frame serial number is 8 digits, matched by the same, on top of the slide.
110010xx. To the right of the frame s/n is rolled, (or stamped) a neat: 1964

There are some "hieroglyphics" stamped on the slide top, just behind the ejection port, that were completely foreign, as you would expect.

I did open a box of 7.62x25 ammo and with the slide locked back let a round "plunk" solidly into the chamber.

My favorite shop owner, will let me field strip a used semi-auto before purchase, and I have the old N R A booklets of dis-assembly for it, but as yet I did not feel comfortable doing that.
He is for some reason a little reluctant to have pictures taken of his stock. I respect that. (A "home shop"in the lower section of his residence.)

Other than Wikipedia, do you know of more complete sources ? Serial number mean anything to anyone ?

Anyway, thanks for the help so far. Any further thoughts and comments would be welcome. I think of it as an interesting history search.

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I haven't looked for them, but it would be surprising that there are no websites devoted to the TT, or maybe Russian, ComBlock, or Chinese weapons in general with TT areas. There seem to be websites and forums for about any guns you can imagine. Yahoo has numerous forums for different guns, don't know if Toks are among them.

I have understood that the main purpose of most Red Army handguns was to shoot deserters.

Just from what you posted I would guess that it's an original Chinese
military pistol, possibly a Nam vet bringback. The grasping grooves on
the slide will be narrow. The original Russian guns are usually much
older and have fewer slide grooves that are much wider.

Nice! Sounds like a Chinese made gun, more than likely a Vietnam bring back. Very collectible, worth $500-$1000 depending on condition.

[QUOTE=DWalt;139210869]I haven't looked for them, but it would be surprising that there are no websites devoted*** Yahoo has numerous forums for different guns, don't know if Toks are among them. ***

Thanks DWalt

Yep, you are right, I cruised through a couple last night. I found a few posts that were in keeping with what I have learned, but the variety of the Tokarev makers is massive.

One overriding comment about most all makes was fool-proof functioning, so maybe my "pig-in-a-poke" will work out okay; and, while looking it over again last evening, a "serious" firearms collector said he would take it off my hands and add a little profit if I wanted.

On the Tokarev forums,I felt like a "first-timer" must feel when faced with trying to decipher S&W's frame lettering designations, mixed in with numbered models, common name models, and PRE this that or the other.

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This is my CHI-COM model 54, Korean War era. Great pistols with a very interesting history. Fedor Tokarev was the Russian John Browning in a sense. The hot 7.62X25 round was copied ( though not exactly)by the Germans for their "broom handle" Mauser. It amazes me that Tokarevs ( Russian, Chinese, Yugoslavian, and Romanian) can still be purchased at steal prices. Fortunately,the collectors have not yet caught on

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John

Not the most stylish and attractive design possible, but I suppose they are reliable and functional - and are not made out of plastic. The TT33 is one of the relatively few more common handguns that I have neither owned nor even fired. I know there is always a debate about the Russian 7.62mm Tok round vs. the .30 Mauser. Some say it is safe to fire the Tok round in a broomhandle Mauser, others feel it is dangerous to do so. Apparently the two are dimensionally close enough to interchange.

The Mauser round can be fired in the Tokarev pistol, but the Tokarev round is loaded (factory) to significantly higher pressure, and could damage a nice old Mauser BTW DWalt, you need to buy a TOK. They are inexpensive, interesting, robust, reliable, accurate, ammo is readily available, and a "BLAST" to shoot--huge fire-ball in low light

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John

Here's an original Russian TT-33 Tokarev, made in early 1945. Yes, that's blood pitting; obviously used in anger. These original Russian guns had no safety other than the half-cock notch in the hammer. Most imported into this country have had a manual safety of some sort added, so the originals without such a safety have risen in collector value. If you find one of the originals at a decent price, by all means get it.



A few years ago I purchased an M57 Tokarev, made in Yugoslavia (now Serbia) in 1971. It's chambered in the original 7.62 x 25 Tokarev cartridge, has a manual safety, and accommodates an extra round by virtue of a longer grip and magazine. It will also shoot Mauser 7.63 x 25 rounds, which are virtually identical, but which have less power.



Functioning on the M57 was flawless. I got the gun in "as new" condition - still had the original cosmoline in it, and some minor machining chips in the cosmoline.



Be sure to wear adequate ear protection - the high velocity Tokarev round is VERY loud. I shot this group rapid fire at the standard "combat" distance of 7 yards.

Many current imports have been rebarreled to accept 9mm Luger ammo, which is more available.

More information on the Tokarev is in my book 101 Classic Firearms.

John

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The difference between the Tok and .30 Mauser can be confusing. Jane's very large book .....Cartridges of the World lists the Masuer round as a faster round than the Russian Tok.

Reading Winston Churchill's accounts of using the .30 Mauser against the Fuzzy Wuzzy at Obdourmun where he killed 6 Dervishes, some at contact range but others at several yards. And stopped them in their tracks. Those Fuzzy Wussy had to be the very next thing to a wild animal - human in that they lived very rough and with using swords and charging British Infantry had to have a very high Adrenaline spike and be immune to many forms of shock, yet the .30 Mauser took them right off their feet.

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I haven't chronographed any of the Russian ammo for the 7.62X25 so I'm sort of groping in the dark. Has any one chronographed the Russian stuff? I thik the Russian ammo, intended mostly for SMGs, has a slightly slower burning powder to take advanage of the longer barrel. When fired in a pistol, it produces a lot more blast and flash than other ammo, making people think ti's more powerful.

The stuff you have to be careful of is the Czech ammo made for the VZ 24 (wooden stock) and VZ 26 (folding metal stock) SMGs as well as the CZ 52 pistol. It comes on the 8 round clips illustrated and is headstamped as shown. I did chronograph this. US 30 Mauser is listed at 1425 fps; two lots of this stuff showed instrumental velocities of 1605 fps and 1615 fps respectively. It will damage both Mausers and Tokarevs and is dangerous to shoot in anything but the Czech weapons.

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I think that stuff is just Internet rumors. Russians certainly didn't care which went where so long as you were using the correct caliber for the firearm. They had specialty ammo but it wasn't firearms related. It was what it did. (AP, subsonic, lead, steel...etc). And no mater who you ask you get either... A) only in Russian Toks. B ) only in Czech sub guns or C) only in Czech firearms. People on both sides shot tons of this ammo and both claim the other can't.

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"Mayhaps" I am beginning to sense the subtle differences in these things.(A little bit.) This example by VIS35, his Chi-Com for instance , has no visible roll marks on the slide, nor on the barrel hood, not even the caliber designation. That is the same as mine.

If not too much of an imposition VIS35; would you most a picture of the left side ?

Also, the star-in-circle on the grip panels is bare of lettering, (like mine), though I realize removable parts and pieces can't be used to determine I D.

I hesitate to make this assumption; but are "Norinco" and Chinese built models one and the same ?

I must say these things have really piqued my interest. The latest little "nugget" that bobbed into my noggin is the why-for of the "T T" designation...... F. Tokarev design; (in 1930) produced at the "Tula" Arms factory. The first guns being "T T 30".
.Thanks to all

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Norinco is a major Chinese manufacturing complex, I believe. It certainly is Chinese.

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Oh well, what the hell.

This is the left side of my Model 54 per your request. Hope this helps

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John

Thanks VIS35, for the second picture. It does narrow the possibilities of what I have on lay-a-way.

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wanna do right-- not right now

For anyone interested, I chronographed Czech 3 52 BXN 7.62x25mm ammo fired from a Czech VZ 26 smg at an average of 1836 fps, and out of a Czech VZ 52 pistol at 1573 fps.

TT-33 = Tokarev Type 33 (probably Tipo Tokareva)

Larry

It's Tula Tokarev. Tula being the factory and Tokarev obviously the last name of the designer. The whole name would be semi loading pistol Tokareva obraztsa 1930/33. Russian guns are named BT how it works, name of inventor, caliber and date. Like automatic Kalashnikov 1947

"Tipo" would not be used for "Type", it has a slightly different meaning. Or rather same meaning but used different. The word you're looking for is "obraztsa"

Tipo would be more like "kind of","a like", " similar "

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As with most firearms here on the forum, once you are in a position to photograph your new aquision, we will be able to give you much more substantial and accurate information. I have several of these TT variations, and combined with all the other forum members, it would be surprising if we could not give some really accurate data.

The lack of an added safety is a big factor. Pistols recently imported are mandated to have one, and sometimes some really strange and grotesque mutilations of the original sleek design are thus created. I have two original, unaltered TTs, one Russian, and the other Chinese. These were both war trophies, and although they are somewhat finish challenged, they are worth more than a couple of more recent imports that have added safeties. A Polish and a Yugoslavian. I also have a couple of reference books devoted to Tokarevs, so once we see some photos, we will be able to tell you a lot more.

Arik is correct. The original design was created by the famous Russian arms designer, Feodor Tokarev. the pistol was produced at Tula, as Arik indicates. An earlier version, the TT 30, was improved, and became the TT 33. The TT-30 (Russian: 7,62-мм самозар****************ны******** ****************сто********ет Токарева образ********а 1930 ********о********а, 7,62 mm Samozaryadnyj Pistolet Tokareva obraztsa 1930 goda) which in English roughly means 7.62 mm self-loading pistol, Tokarev model of the year 1930.

The Russian model is the one which was copied by all of the other countries.

We need pictures!!! More information then!!

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Hot stuff! I'll keep it out of my Mausers and Tokarev. OK for the VZ 52, which was designed to take it.