Along with a lot of other historical trivia I happen to have a copy
of the February 1963 American Rifleman magazine.

On March 12, 1963 Lee Harvey Oswald, using an assumed name,
rented a post office box, and ordered the rifle by mail from a full
page ad on page 65 in the magazine noted above.

The subject rifle was ordered from Klein's Sporting Goods in
Chicago. It is the third rifle from the top of the ad in the left
side column. It is an Italian military 6.5 x 52MM military rifle.
It is called a Carcano Carbine. He paid $19.95 for the rifle
with a 4 power scope. The ad says one could also get a six
round clip and 108 rounds of ammo for an additional $7.50.

The assassination occured on November 22, 1963. It was a
sad day. John Kennedy was a much loved president.

Two days later, November 24, 1963 we was watching live
television when Lee Harvey Oswald was being moved from the
basement of the Dallas, Texas police station to a more secure
location. Jack Ruby, owner of a local strip joint, stepped
foreward and fired a single shot, from his Colt Cobra .38 Spl.
revolver, fatally wounding Oswald.

Some thought of Ruby as a hero. Some thought he killed
Oswald to cover up a conspiracy. Some say there must have
been more than one shooter.

I had previously bought that same rifle, without the scope,
for my wife a deer rifle. I know it is fast and accurate enough
to do what Oswald did. There didn't have to be more than
one shooter.

P.S. from that same ad you could buy a Model 1917 Colt .45
ACP revolver with 5.5" barrel for $29.95. A box of 20 .45 ACP
cartridges an additional $2.50.

__________________
In Omnia Paratus

Having sat in Oswald's sniper nest (before it was roped off in the museum) and looking out where JFK was hit, it was no "miracle shot". I suspect that the majority of the people on this forum could have accomplished it with any decent rifle if they had a mind to.

As far as Military rifles are rated, the Carcano is just about the
bottom of the heap. I can remember when I was a kid I bought
one off a school buddy. Military ammo was still avaible (1962)
but what I remember, a box of Norma hunting ammo cost more
than rifle was worth. Springfields, Enfields, Mausers of all stripes
were far superior rifles.

I grew up in Dallas and as a teenager in 1966, just three years after the event. Back then you could go up to the Sixth floor and stand in the same spot Oswald did. Dealey Plaza slopes downward towards Stemmons Freeway. It as an easy shot, especially with a telescopic sight. JFK's head must have looked like a watermelon with 10X magnification. Also, sound richochets off the cement walls surrounding the scene. Depending on where you stand, it could sound like the shots came from several different spots. that's the acoustics of the scene.

I have been to Dealey Plaza in Dallas, and in my opinion, that would have been an easy shot.

25 years ago I was driving from one city to another in a rural area. I saw a yard sale and stopped. Not much there, as always I asked if she had any knives or guns.

She lit up and said yes, she ran into the mobile home and came back out with a Carcano carbine in a brown box, wrapped in brown paper and covered in what appeared to be cosmoline. I asked how much, she said $20.00 with the uncanny knack of many wife's that can tell to the dime how much money a guy has.

I said, won't your husband get upset? She said several bad words about him, he took his paycheck and went on a drunk. She was getting grocery money for the kids, yada, or her own 6 pack maybe.

Amazingly all I had was one $20.00 bill. She took it and I left with the prize. I never took it out, cleaned the grease off or shot it. Then I mentioned I had a Carcano Carbine like the one that killed Kennedy to a guy who had to have it. Traded it for perhaps a Win M-12 in 16 gauge.

Don't miss the Carcano, sure would like to have the M-12 back.

A fellow LEO Firearms Instructor brought an identical Carcano Carbine to a rifle class I was attending. After the class was over we set up the targets at the documented distance and got out an electronic shot timer. There was four of us to give it a try. All of us made the shots under LHO's time. Like said, "It was an easy shoot". IMHO, LHO did the shooting by himself. Now, did he have indoctrination and coaching by the Russians? I have no idea.

Maybe it was the one I shot, but the action and trigger were horrible, I just don't see how anyone could have gotten of that many shots after the first one. I am by no means an "expert' marksman, but with some other bolt actions rifles I have fired, I could see that being possible, but not with the Carcano I fired. Several of my buddies and myself tried to do it one day at the range, and none of us had any luck.

I'd definitely prefer a $29.95 1917 over a $19.95 Carcano.

You can still stand a couple of windows down from the actual window (which is behind glass walls). Even a couple of windows down, it's very moving to stand there and survey that scene, and everything you've ever known about the event flashes before your eyes.

All i got to go on is the Zapruder film.
Never been to Dallas.
Never owned a Carcano.

Everything i've learned from shooting rifles for my 40 years
of shooting contradicts the fatal shot and the snap of Kennedy's
head backwards.
It's still my opinion there was more than one person pulling a
trigger that day.


Chuck

__________________
They hold no Quarter

The Zapruder film shows Jackie Kennedy scrambling across the rear deck lid of the limo, trying to get the piece of skull back that blew out of JFK's head. Someone please tell me how that was accomplished by a shot from the REAR?

Additionally, there is a very lengthy Youtube video (I believe) where a man admits he shot Kennedy. He claims he did it with a 221 Fireball from an XP-100, if memory serves. I find that explanation MUCH more plausible. I will go to my grave believing LHO was a patsy, and was set up, then killed when it was determined he might talk.

I was a big believer in the conspiracy theories and read many books and saw video presentations that led me to believe in multiple shooters. I didn't think the "magic bullet" could have done what they said it did, or that those shots could have been successful.
I went to the Texas Book Depository museum and Dealy Plaza a couple of years ago and the perspective I gained from that changed my mind. I saw how close the sniper's nest was to the street and saw the position where the car was. I saw that the range was far closer than any video made it appear, and that the shots would be possible for someone with reasonable practice and skills.
It was a tragic day that changed everything in our country. I think that people needed to believe that it would take more than one pitiful loser to bring down a great man in such a way. Who knows what could have been?

I used to read a lot of the conspiracy books too, and get all wrapped up in the excitement.

As I've grown up (sometime after I hit 50 or so ), I've become partial to Occam's Razor: The easiest explanation is usually the correct one.

Oswald, who learned to shoot in the Marine Corps, made three shots with a scoped rifle at a target moving away from him in a straight line and scored twice. Nothing miraculous.

And about that head snapping backwards and the piece of skull on the trunk: If you look at the Zapruder film, JFK was turned to the left and his head snapped to the left when the right side of his head blew up. Take an old soccer ball to your range and shoot it so you hit it to the right of the center; in most cases it'll bounce off to the left. Simple physics.

A shooter from the grassy knoll would have blown out the left rear of JFK's skull. A bullet that came from the front and traversed his skull the way the third bullet did would have had to come from the triple overpass straight ahead and therefore would have been travelling at an opposite downward angle than the actual bullet did from behind. Since no other second shooter position is feasible, the frontal shot fails the reality test, like most other "inconsistencies" which dissolve upon a closer look.

I have the NRA magazine the month before or after the one Oswald bought his gun from, but the ad is probably completely identical. His rifle is. If you add shipping, the price is the one always stated that he paid. He took a practice assassination shot at a Texas politician prior but missed.

When I began studying political science at the University of Utah in 1974, the school used a four quarters a year schedule. I took a class that dealt exclusively with the twists and turns of the JFK murder. The professor was the local head of the ACLU, guy named Foxx, a real liberal but was intellectually honest and taught both sides of the coin and let you make up your own mind. My idea of what a professor of social sciences should be.

Text book was, "OH MY GOD THEY'VE KILLED THE PRESIDENT!"

It's not much of a chore to get to believe that LHO actually killed Kennedy with the Carcano carbine. Where you get really blown away is in the fates of all sorts of other people who were or possibly were included in the huge web of folks who may have been in support rolls of an extended plot to kill the President and then the Congressional and Warren Committee. Those folks were committing suicides, being killed in traffic accidents and just plain murdered under unexplained circumstances that would make an insurance actuarial get up and leave town to avoid the fates of most people who were to be questioned.

I red a new book on the plot and conspiracy ever year or two when a good one comes out. Right now, it's "HIT LIST" by Richard Belzer (yes, that Richard Belzer) and David Wayne. It's one that has me convinced that there were fair numbers of folks involved in Kennedy's murder in large and small ways and that we are never likely to know who did what because so many of those people died so soon after Kennedy.

I've always wondered what J. Edgar thought. Or more precisely what he knew.

"I have the NRA magazine the month before or after the one Oswald bought his gun from, but the ad is probably completely identical."

That same Klein's ad ran for several months in both the American Rifleman and Guns & Ammo. I have a January 1963 AR and a May 1963 G&A, both ads are identical. I don't know from which magazine ad Oswald ordered his rifle, not sure anyone does. I doubt he was an NRA member. I think Oswald's rifle shipped in April 1963. I have never fired the 6.5 Carcano, but I have fired the same rifle in 7.35mm. Before WWII, apparently Mussolini decided that a larger caliber than the 6.5mm was needed, so some 6.5mm rifles were converted to 7.35mm (essentially the 6.5mm case necked up). Perhaps a few rifles were made new in 7.35mm. Anyway, someone in the Italian army figured out that having two different calibers in the same rifle could easily lead to serious logistics problems, and the 7.35mm version was quickly dropped. It was somewhat strange, as the 7.35mm bullet was 0.300", not the more common 0.308"-0.311".

There are many "ballistics mysteries" surrounding both Oswald's 6.5 rifle and his .38 sawed-off Victory revolver that have never been adequately resolved. I won't go into them, but they are easily searchable for anyone interested.

"It's one that has me convinced that there were fair numbers of folks involved in Kennedy's murder in large and small ways and that we are never likely to know who did what because so many of those people died so soon after Kennedy."

I remember that some years ago, someone applied a voice stress analysis test to all of the recorded statements made by the police, FBI, etc. at the time of the assassination. The conclusion was that EVERYONE was lying.

Watch the PBS Nova documentary: "Cold Case JFK".
The forensic evidence implicating Oswald is compelling.
You will particularly enjoy the shooting demonstrations with the Carcano rifle using 6.5 military ammunition.

John

So why is the Carcano considered a sub par rifle?

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In the excellent book "Case Closed" by Gerald Posner it says Oswald often hung out at Crescent City Garage run by an Adrian Alba who was a gun enthusiast. Oswald would read Field & Stream, American Rifleman, etc. there and sometimes borrow them. On March 10, 1963 he clipped a coupon from the Feb. issue of A.R. and sent $21.45 to Kleins Sporting Goods in Chicago.
Did Oswald try to asassinate Major General Edwin Walker with his new rifle but missed and later went for a bigger target? I believe so and that Oswald acted completely alone. The bullet shot at Walker hit his windowpane from the outside at night while he was in his kitchen. He lost the Dem. primary to John Connolly. Looks like Oswald would have ironically shot Walker anyway later had he beat Connolly and won the Gov. race. Then he would have took that ride with JFK. Story on Oswald shooting at him:

Did Lee Harvey Oswald Shoot at General Edwin Walker? : The JFK Assassination

For a time, I too thought a magical bullet was involved until I saw an accurate, objective reconstruction of the shooting to include the proper positioning of JFK and Gov. Connolly in the vehicle. No magic involved.

If shot's came from the grassy knoll, why wasn't Jackie struck?

As for JFK snapping back, consider this: have you ever noticed the muscular effort involved when seated in the rear seat of an automobile, to hand something to the driver, such as paying your cab fare? Rear car seats are sloped rearward. Second, JFK had a really bad back and he was trussed up for support. The instant the fatal bullet arrived, his muscles went slack and he had no where to go but rearward.

That's largely a matter of personal opinion. The 6.5 Carcano was good enough for the Italian military to use as its service rifle for quite a long time, and it apparently served their purposes. Regarding the caliber, the 6.5mm is not too shabby in its performance. The armies of Japan and the Scandinavian countries, and maybe a few others such as Portugal, were also using 6.5 caliber rifles and cartridges of equivalent power during the same time period. There are certainly "better" rifles and cartridges, but the evidence is that the Carcano was effective and adequate in Oswald's hands.

I was just curious. I only ever had one once. Never fired one but I have heard that it's ****** from many random people. Never bothered to look it up bit this topic just reminded me

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It's feasible that O fired the only gun. I don't think there had to be people on overpasses and grassy knolls and people could be imagining or misinterpreting the activity around these areas. What gets weird is about everything else that happened before and after.

Now the rifle. Carcano's typically and almost universally have stiff actions. But it's been shown that the shot wasn't that tough and a little extra grease might have helped smooth it out long enough to make three shots that quickly.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Hi Forum;

The controversy over JFK assassination not withstanding, I also had the occasion to shoot one of those carbines in 1962 as a teenager at our local Rod & Gun in southern tier New York, and I can tell you from that one time experience that I still have a deep scar over my right eye. Note the adds........equipped with a "good quality" 4X scope. Quality my foot! The scope was small tube 3/4", made for a .22 is my guess nowadays, me too dumb at the time to even think about eye relief, so I paid the price (and 8 stitches). Sure got me thinking along the right lines for the future. Never shot that rifle again, never wanted to, and fell in with the same crowd that said it was a piece of ****, but now wisdom of the ages tells me it was a) ****** scope and mounting, and b) dumb me, and not the rifle. But anyway.........check out those Garand prices....gets me drooling like I have a phobia or something

They are just a clunky, cheaply made rifle. I have one, and also a 6.5 Arisaka. The Arisaka is a far superior arm to the Carcano.
Even a Mosin Nagant seems to be of better quality.

You mean like fit and finish?

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Many of the Carcano's were made by Beretta and they are hardly junk. The biggest valid complaint about them is a single locking lug. I've owned and shot several over the years and they were certainly adequate as military arms in the time period when they were used.
Jim

The only thing I ever thought would make it difficult was the enormity of the moment. Kind of like a Super Bowl-winning (or losing, sorry Bills fans!) field goal. Then I remember the immortal words of English Bob...



English Bob: [discussing the assassination of President Garfield] Well there's a dignity royalty. A majesty that precludes the likelihood of assassination. If you were to point a pistol at a king or a queen your hands would shakes as though palsied.

Barber: Oh I wouldn't point no pistol at nobody sir.

English Bob: Well that's a wise policy, a wise policy. But if you did. I can assure you, if you did, that the sight of royalty would cause you to dismiss all thoughts of bloodshed and you would stand... how shall I put it? In awe. Now, a president... well I mean...

(chuckles)
English Bob: why not shoot a president.

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Because of the metric system?

I mean the clunky, hard to work action, the nutcracker trigger, bb gun sights, the single locking lug, etc. I see nothing impressive about it.

I don't expect to see a nice finish on a military rifle, but this thing just seems unsafe to me.

Do what now? My Carcanos (Carcani?) have two locking lugs and the base of the bolt acts as a third safety lug. Google "Carcano bolt" and the pictures all show two lugs.

__________________
Release the Kraken

Interesting history of the Carcano. Carcano - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In reading this one finds the Italian ammo was not consistently loaded causing group variations, this happen in the same lot.

With consistent ammunition it performs similarly to the 6.5 Mannlicher-Schoenour cartridge which is excellent per some writers and close to the 6.5 Swede which is awesome from my personal use.

Ammo link. 6.5x52mm Carcano - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Being from Dallas, I read up on everything I found when I came back from patrol and tunnel cleaning.
Yes you can tell where I was doing our Govt's business.
The Rifle in the hands of a trained Marine is a killing machine, period.
This is what Oswald was, a trained killing machine.
If he was not killed 3 days later by Jack Ruby, who knows what he could of caused later, even incarcerated.

I will agree that "maybe" LHO might have been able to make those three shots, but I find it extremely difficult to calculate how he was fast enough to make them that quickly from 3 different locations, within the allotted time. Even "Roadrunner" would be hard pressed to accomplish that feet.

The nutty, groundless conspiracy theories will probably never end.

Whatever you do, DO NOT GET INTO AN ARGUMENT with a conspiracy theorist!!!! They will never, never, not ever admit that JFK was killed by a 20 dollar rifle fired by a lone assassin from a 6th floor window.

I've been there, too - I agree, the majority of people on this Forum, if they shoot rifles, could have done it easily.

It's not worth arguing with people who refuse to believe it. Firearms experts included.

For those who may not be aware of it, the Russian Federov ****mat rifle from the WWI period is considered by most experts to have been the very first weapon worthy of the name "Assault Rifle". It was chambered in the 6.5mm Japanese (6.5x50) cartridge, similar to the Italian 6.5 Carcano (6.5x52). If the Carcano rifle had any weaknesses, it was not the caliber.

I agree, with the caveat that it isn't the easiest nor least inexpensive round to find.

My only question is... 108 rounds...?? What's up with that?

People always ask me, "Where were you when Kennedy was shot"? I don't know... but I didn't do it!

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I'm too windy for 30 chrctrs!

"In reading this one finds the Italian ammo was not consistently loaded causing group variations, this happen in the same lot."

Another interesting tidbit - it was never determined where LHO got the 6.5 ammo. It didn't come with the rifle, and it was American made (by Western) as part of a CIA order from the late 1940s. It was not Italian. I have a very long story about that, but I won't go into it, as it doesn't end by saying where Oswald got it.

And why should they ? Millions of dollars have been made over the years writing conspiracy theory books and even when it was pretty definitively shown that the Warren Commission was essentially correct and Oswald was the lone shooter these people just go on and on. John Connally the Texas Governor who was is the car with Kennedy and who was also a lifelong hunter got it correct when he stated that 3 shots were fired.
It's all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!
Jim

I don't know anything about Carcanos, but I know this; I was in high school in 1963, and in 1969 while attending college, I met a young man who was intelligent, honest, and studying to become commercial photographer. In November of 1963 he had been working for the Dalas PD. It was his job to develop and print the black and white crime scene photographs, the Presidential assassination included. He told me that there were ALWAYS 6 photographs of every murder victim. They always followed the same pattern: top of head, left side, toward feet, right side, front, and back. Not this time. Although my friend had the entire roll of negatives, the police photographer did not shoot images of the top of Kennedy's head or of his left side. Perhaps he was coached?

Draw whatever conclusion you may.
Richard

The Italian troops that had that version had a saying in their language that loosely translated that if you were hit by someone shooting a Carcano-it was predestined for you to die!

This was borne out in the excelent 3 part series on A&E-"Investigative Reports" with Bill Curtis-Once I watched this documentary, my suspicions were confirmed, especially when they interviewed the guy who was a young sailor at the time, that was standing in front of the grassy knoll when the shots went off-they used updated photo eq to show the images behind him-very compelling.

In referencing relative quality of the Italian Carcano, I notice the iconic Marlin 30-30 was almost four times as much. That Klein's store must have picked up a bundle of these excess soldier guns and just wanted to move them.

Please don't feel picked on, but this is just a classic example how most conspiracy theorists pull their theories together. Some facts, delivered with a suitably foreboding tone, which upon short reflection contain nothing that contributes anything. I mean, here is the president's head blowing apart in full color and good focus right in front of you on the Zapruder film, and we're supposed to draw conclusions from 6 photographs that some local yokel supposedly didn't take? As I said, nothing personal, but this just shows the silliness of most "alternative" evidence.

Ok Guys:
50 + years and NOT one shred of hard evidence to support all these conspiracy theories!! Believe what you want but I still think it boils down to $$$$ period. Please feel free to prove me wrong!
Jim

Lots of opinions about the Carcano. It's been over 50 years, so memory
is vague, but we shot ours quite a lot. All of my recollections are positive.
It was a slick little rifle. Wife is a little girl. 5'3" 120# and she had no
problem with recoil. My rifle was a model 70 Winchester with a Weaver
K4. The Carcano wasn't quite that nice.

__________________
In Omnia Paratus

Won't most of our questions about shooters, numbers, positions, etc. be answered someday soon? I believe the Zapruder film contains all the bullets fired that sad day, and their trajectories. Once technology advances enough to make visible those projectiles, that part of the mystery will be solved!! I don't know if technology will ever show what is in a man's heart....

"In the late 1950s, US Marines were categorised at three levels of shooting ability, according to the scores they achieved at a standardised test of their accuracy:

Expert: a score of 220 to 250.
Sharpshooter: 210 to 219.
Marksman: 190 to 209.
According to his Marine score card (Commission Exhibit 239), Oswald was tested twice:

In December 1956, after “a very intensive 3 weeks’ training period” (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.11, p.302), Oswald scored 212: two marks above the minimum for a ‘sharpshooter’.
In May 1959, he scored 191: one mark above the minimum for a ‘marksman’."

My input: OK. Oswald was no Carlos Hathcock, but at that range with that rifle, what's more likely? That Oswald made these shots including missing the first one, or that the Soviets, Mafia, CIA, Tooth Fairy, or whoever used this erratic twerp somehow? I go along with this often stated thought. People cannot except that JFK could be killed by such a worthless nothing of a man. It must be something bigger to justify the massive loss in our minds. We must balance it out for it to make sense. It's just not fair that such a pathetic little loser couild do this. But he did.