I am looking at possibly purchasing an old Colt 1911 chambered in .38 super. I believe it’s a 1949 model. I don’t know no much about that caliber, or a gun of that age. I’ve only seen a couple pictures.
It’s appears to be in excellent condition still in original brown paper box with one magazine and its cleaning brush. I’m gonna want to shoot it. Nothing crazy, but a couple hundred rounds a year. I reload, so ammo cost is a non issue. Are these guns accurate? I’ve heard something about the slides not being fully hardened, really?
Would love to hear some thoughts/opinions on this gun.
Thank you,
David.

Buy it! At least if it is within the constraints of your budget, as they are very desirable. If you are interested in better grouping you might want to buy a newer barrel. Springfield Armory barrels are good. The older barrels headspaced on the semi-rim of the case, not so great for accuracy. New .38 Super barrels headspace on the case mouth, just like the .45 and 9mm, and that is much better. If you do change the barrel, be certain to keep the old barrel for the sake of originality. Do not worry at all about the slide. They were hardened where it counts - the front. But by 1949, and I am not 100% sure about this, the entire slide may have been heat treated.

The old 38 Supers are things of real beauty, wonderfully made. However, the old barrels headspace the cartridge on the rim, not the case mouth and, because the rim on a 38 Super is so small, accuracy is generally somewhere between poor and nonexistent. I would love to have an old Colt 38 Super but I would plan on sending it to Bar-Sto to have a proper barrel fitted if I wanted it to be accurate

__________________
Everybody could shoot

What DWalt said.Very desirable gun,buy it.Ive heard that some were quite accurate while others were only so so.

The Colt Super .38 Automatic was extremely popular from its introduction (late 1930's or so) until recent years. Regularly touted as the "most powerful automatic pistol in the world", at least until the 1970's.

What you are describing sounds like a very worthwhile investment piece, all original with factory box, etc. No reason not to shoot it, ammo is pretty easy to find and reloading is no great chore.

As far as accuracy is concerned, in my experience the Colts ran the gamut from very good to very disappointing during the post-WW2 years. Most common problem I have encountered has been fixed sights that have little relationship between point of aim and point of impact, and that would be impossible to deal with unless you want to destroy collector value of the pistol. To be completely fair, even those problems were more commonly seen during the late 1960's and into the 1970's, with the earlier production guns seeming to have had more attention to quality.

Hardening of the slide issues were more of a pre-WW2 problem than in later production.

For the right price I would be all over that 1949 Super .38!

Mine is a 1952 model. Fairly accurate and functions fine.

I have a 1948 (frame at least), that belonged to Dad. Some 30 years ago I inherited it. My local gunsmith told me it was a mix of parts most likely assembled some time ago for competition, as it already had a match grade barrel, and the slide was not an exact match to the frame.

I believe it is my most accurate pistol. I was much younger (& clueless about value) and had him re-blue the slide & nickel the frame, added new sights & trigger. Oh well, it wasn't going anywhere anyways. It is also my favorite pistol & the reason I started reloading back then.

I have pictures here somewhere........ I say buy it if at all possible, and shoot it. . But try to avoid re-finishing it. LOL! Love to see it!

Would love to see pictures. If you want to learn a lot about Colt 38 Supers get a copy of Douglas Sheldon's "Colt's Super .38 - The Production History from 1929 through 1971." Hopefully, though, you can find one other than at Amazon where the price is currently listed at $550 for a 1st edition copy. Great source of 38 Super information though.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

If it's within your budget, BUY IT!!!


Mine is a 1957 edition. When I acquired it I honestly don't think it had been fired since leaving the factory. When it came to me it was wearing the original barrel. Accuracy was more than acceptable as I can ring the 50 yard gong fairly consistently. The only modification I made before the first firing was to remove the factory MOP grips (I've been offered STUPID money for them) and replace with a set of Colt Gold Cup double diamond rosewood grips I had laying in the grip drawer.


Class III

Mine was a Super Match with fixed sights, made about 1935-36. It was beautifully made, with a VERY slick honed action.

But accuracy was poor and I sold it. At the time,we hadn't yet learned why many Supers shot badly, and I'm not sure a modern barrel can even be used on guns that old.

SIG P-220's were made in .38 Super, and a pal had one that shot like a target pistol. Someone else I know has a recent Colt and it's also very accurate.

I've seen barrels that were heavier or lighter in this caliber. I suspect that not all barrels will interchange.

If you can purchase a 1949 for resonable money, do so.... Anything made between the end of WWII and 1969 starts at $2K and if it has a box and paperwork even more. The money people are willing to pay for Supers is amazing....

As to repacing the barrel, a proper headspace on the case mouth barrel can be had for as little as $60 for a ROTO 4M at SARCO to $250 at BarSto. It will in no way change the value of your gun as a good smith will fit the barrel to the gun, not the gun to the barrel. Just make sure you keep the original barrel with the gun...

Here is a link on the headspace problem...

The Old Super .38 Barrels - 1911Forum


And a lot of information here...

38 Super


The 1911 in .38 Super is my favorite combination...extremely accurate and mild recoil... Have carried a Commander daily since 1980...

Good luck with your purchase...

Bob

I have a Colt 38 super in the 7500 serial number range which puts it at a 1930 build date. I have the original barrel and magazine and a Barsto installed barrel. It is a lot more accurate than I am original sights being somewhat small. Unfortunately it has been refinished but it is still a fine old gun. In original finish it would probably be worth quite a lot given its age.

Don't pass it up! The fit and finish on these is generally great. Accuracy, as already stated, is okay but, a new barrel is needed for really, no pun intended, super accuracy.

Attached Images

fullsizeoutput_ea.jpg (62.5 KB, 72 views)

"But accuracy was poor and I sold it. At the time,we hadn't yet learned why many Supers shot badly, and I'm not sure a modern barrel can even be used on guns that old."

My experience has been than new barrels drop right in.

I was always surprised that the .38 Super was not more popular. If it wasn't for many IPSC shooters starting to use the round in the early 1990s it may have just about fallen out of existence. I like the ballistics, a little hotter than a 9m/m and about like a .357 Sig but the case isn't as fat so the magazine would possibly hold more rounds, I never did hear why they made it semi rimmed and why Colt made their guns to head space on the rim?

The .38 Super (or Super .38) cartridge's predecessor was the .38 Automatic (.38 ACP), and Colt made several different pistol models for it. It was among the very first rounds intended for automatic pistols. It's actually not very different from several other European 9x23 rounds (9mm Steyr, 9mm Largo, and several others) except for its semi-rim. Colt eventually decided to chamber it in the Model 1911 (one wonders why it took so long) and dropped the other designs. There has always been a debate as to whether the earliest .38 Super loadings were or were not more powerful than the old .38 ACP, and it seems that at least for awhile they were pretty much identical. I think the belief was that while there were many of the older (and weaker) Colt pistols still in use, it wasn't a good idea to sell a more powerful loading in an identically-dimensioned cartridge.

I have done considerable experimentation with the .38 Super, and have developed some very powerful loads for it (over 1450 ft/sec), except in using the 9x23 Winchester case which is much stronger than the .38 Super case. You need a strong recoil spring when firing it. At one time I was working on the possible adoption of the 9x23 Winchester by the USAF, but that's a long story I won't get into here.

In the beginning, as in 1929, there was no .38 Super... The gun was called the Super .38 and was meant to shoot .38 ACP rounds that had a velocity of about 1080 fps. Over the next few years the velocity was increased to 1300 fps at which time some safety concerns about the older 1903 Colt Automatics came into question... The letters of concern between Colt and the ammunition companies are in the back of the history of the .38 Super book. It was only then in the 1940s that some boxes of .38 ACP were labled .38 Super and the lower pressure rounds labeled .38 ACP or .38 Automatic.

As to why the round headspaced on the case rim instead of the case mount... As this was a very early semi-automatic case design Browning just used what the revolvers of the period used...the rim... Same as his .32 ACP..has a small rim. Luger and Mauser both used the case mouth or shoulder in their designs. It is just too bad that when the 1911 was brought out in .38 ACP that someone didn't think to headspace the case on the mouth like the .45 ACP already was....

Bob

"As to why the round headspaced on the case rim instead of the case mount... As this was a very early semi-automatic case design Browning just used what the revolvers of the period used...the rim... Same as his .32 ACP..has a small rim. Luger and Mauser both used the case mouth or shoulder in their designs. It is just too bad that when the 1911 was brought out in .38 ACP that someone didn't think to headspace the case on the mouth like the .45 ACP already was...."

Or why Colt did not work with the ammunition companies to bring out a rimless version of the .38 Super which headspaced on the case mouth for use in the M1911. Of course, that cartridge already existed (at least approximately) in the form of the 9mm Steyr and 9mm Largo cartridges. I assume most are aware that both these 9mms will work in the M1911 .38 Super pistols with later barrels (and probably even with the earlier barrels), except that the 9mm Largo has a slightly greater COAL which does not work well in the M1911 magazine. The 9mms have a slight case taper while the .38 Super does not, but that seems to make no difference. I use mainly 9x23 Win and Starline 9mm SuperComp cases in my two .38 Supers without problems, and both those cases are rimless, essentially elongated 9x19 cases.

I wondered about trying to headspace on the tiny semi-rim too, especially when factory chamber dimensions are sometimes a bit "relaxed" too. Caused me grief on a couple Colts back before I knew of the issue. My first Super, a new Combat Commander purchased about 1970 or so, was reliable, but accuracy was: Shots were usually somewhere on the paper at 25 yards. No group sizes to report, as there were literally no groups to measure. Plenty of flattened and pierced primers to boot. I later bought a 70 Series Government 38S,same issues. But at least by that time, knew what to expect. Replaced the Govt. barrel with one headspacing on the case mouth, problem solved.

DWalt, I have bought nothing but Super Comp brass for reloading the Supers for years now. The SC and 9X23 Win. brass both function without issue in my Supers. I don't use 9x23W. brass much because I don't have much.

I suspect the 9X23 Largo and Steyr would also function without issue in my Supers, other than the magazine issue you mention. Most Colts I've owned had measured headspace that was also rather "relaxed", sufficient to chamber those longer cases just fine.

__________________
NRA Life, COTEP 640

If it had been called or renamed, at some time, the 9mm Magnum then my guess it that they could not have made them fast enough.

Then you are unfamiliar with the history of metric named cartridges not faring well in America at that time, and for decades to come.

What Colt wanted was a safer gun and hotter version of the existing .38 automatic, which dates to 1900. They just messed up on the headspacing.

Personally, I doubt the idea expressed above that the Super wasn't Super for some years. I'll check my copy of Haven and Belden when I have time and see what early Colt ads said.
I'm pretty sure that they pushed its new, added power from the start.

Think: the reason why S&W had to market the .38-44 is that Colt's .38 Super was making a splash in the police world for its added ability to penetrate automobiles. That was in 1930. For that to be true, the Super .38 power factor has to date from its introduction in 1929.

T.S...."
Personally, I doubt the idea expressed above that the Super wasn't Super for some years. I'll check my copy of Haven and Belden when I have time and see what early Colt ads said.
I'm pretty sure that they pushed its new, added power from the start."

Everything is explained on page 223 of Douglas Sheldon's book on the .38 Super. I was incorrect however that the listed velocity of the .38 ACP was 1080 fps...it was 1160-1280 fps depending on the barrel length of the 1903 it was being shot from as there were 1903s with 6" barrels. The listed velocity in 1929 for a 5" 1911 was 1190 fps. This was listed on the various posters from 1929. In 1931 it was 1200 fps. By the mid 1930s the velocity was listed as 1300 fps as Remington had upped the velocity saying that it was safe i both 1911s and 1903 models... All ammo boxes were still only ".38 ACP" or ".38 AUTOMATIC". It was not until the 1940s sometime when boxes were labeled .38 SUPER.

Bob

Was at a friend's house yesterday who had a 1939 copy of Stogers catalog, pre-Shooters Bible.

In the cartridge section were listed ammo makers and then the rounds they made for each caliber. There was a dual listing under the .38 ACP. All loads were 130 grains:
"CAL. .38 COLT SUPER"
"For Colt Super .38 Model and some foreign pistols."

"CAL. .38 COLT AUTOMATIC"
"For Colt Military and pocket model automatic pistols."

Remington:
SUPER:
F. M. J.
Mush. {Mushrooming}

AUTOMATIC:
F. M. J.


Winchester:
SUPER:
F. M. J.
H. S. P. {hollow soft point}



Western:
SUPER:
F. M. J.
H. P.



Peters:
SUPER:
F. M. J.
H. P.

AUTOMATIC:
F. M. J.

So apparently as early a 1938 Remington at least saw the potential problem with shooting the high power ammo in the 1903 guns. All the headstamps were .38 AUTO or .38 A.P.C. however. The Supers were put in nickel cases and the A.C.P. in brass.

Highly collectable, buy it for the desirability. Quick, before it's gone.

__________________
Dave Ramsey Cultist

I want to thank everyone for their comments. I learned quite a lot about that round and firearm. Unfortunately I was not the high bidder on the old Colt. The seller is a friend and so is the new owner. We do have a gentleman’s agreement that gives me first chance to purchase should he decide to sell later. I’m good with that. As awesome as that gun is, my friends mean more. I may still end up with it one day.
Thanks again.
David.

I had this one in the safe for years,1948, box, docs, conversion it always made me nervous, Im not really a collector, more of an accumulator.It was a very nice gun. Wife inherited it 25 years ago from a distant relative, I bought it from her, she wanted to buy a new saddle. It was nice to look at, but just not my thing. It paid for my new AMSEC safe, so no complaints here.
I learned afew things about this model, what to look for as to original box, markings , and fakes when I was selling it

Now if it had been a registered magnum, it would still be here, ha...Bob

Attached Images

	1948 super.jpg (70.0 KB, 40 views)
	colt 22 conv.jpg (67.0 KB, 37 views)

For those who may not know, any M1911 .45 can be easily converted to a .38 Super (or vice versa). You need a .38 Super (or 9mm) slide, barrel, ejector, and magazine (not necessarily by Colt). Add a 9mm barrel and magazine and you will then have three caliber capabilities on the same frame. An assortment of recoil springs in various weights is also a good idea. You don't really need the little frame pin which holds the ejector, as it cannot go anywhere when the slide is in place. But you can use the pin if you wish as it does keep the ejector from falling out when the slide is off. Just keep a 1/16" pin punch handy.

THANKS FOR THIS GREAT POST, Bob. THE LINKS ARE VERY INFORMATIVE....,,

BACK IN THE DAY, I SHOT BULLSEYE WITH 2 OL' TIMERS THAT WERE DEVOTED TO THEIR .38 SUPERS. THEY WERE OFTEN IN HUSHED CONSPIRATORIAL CONVERSATIONS, OVER THEIR PISTOLS---AS IF OUR YOUNG EARS WERE NOT WORTHY OF THE INFORMATION THEY WERE SHARING....lol

IN ACTUALITY, BOTH MAINTAINED DECENT AVERAGES. THEY BOTH RELOADED, AND LOVED TO TINKER---SO ITS HIGHLY PROBABLE THAT EACH OF THEM WAS USING AN AFTERMARKET, MATCH GRADE BARREL.....

BAR-STO WAS THE BIG NAME, BACK IN THE '80s.....

__________________
'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

I'm sure there are several sources for .38 Super barrels. I put a Springfield Armory .38 Super barrel barrel in mine, it works fine.