It recently (Last spring or so) occurred to me that I’m not a very good “red blooded American” as I don’t own a 1911.

So I been digging and researching off and on over the summer and fall as time allowed.

I think I’ve narrowed the manufacturer down to Les Baer or Dan Wesson.

I’d like to hear your experiences with either.....

Thank you.
Bob

__________________
Keep on keepin on
SWCA #-3282

I do not think that you can be disappointed in either Company

When I started shooting 1911s, Dan Wesson was a revolver manufacturer. But now-a-days everybody makes 1911

I have had several Les Baers over the decades and I really like them. My favorite to this day is my Leas Baer TargetMaster Long Slide

Les was very accommodating and the firearm had a few options added, like the extended slide release and extended mag release. Then the entire piece was finished in Baer Coat which has been holding up Very well. I even had Les laser engrave a set of smooth Coco Bolo grips for me.

While I do like the Dan Wesson Bruin for a Long slide chambered in 10MM Auto, I am still partial to my Les Baer 45s

I like the older (no longer available) MMC adjustable sights. I found a nice set of Amboyna Burl grips for my Les Baer carry piece

__________________
"Acta non verba"

A 1911 isn't a 1911 unless its a Colt. My choice (if I didn't already have one) would be a 70 series Gold Cup.

It really depends on what you want it for. Both are nice pistols. If you want it for maximum showoff potential, the Les Baer will impress folks who are impressed by a name, while the Dan Wesson will save you $1000, and either will make knowledgeable folks envious of your pocketbook.

If you are of a practical mind and just want a well-made, accurate 1911, a Rock Island Armory 1911 will serve as well as either, at a fraction of the price.

__________________
Pisgah

I think that both are fine choices, but let's expand the conversation a bit.

I believe that if you stick with the lower end of their catalog, the Dan Wesson is the best value in a 1911. I am not saying that you have to stick to their absolute cheapest offering -- I'm saying that when you get the very upper end of the Dan Wesson models, you are spending money that approaches or meets Baer, Brown and Wilson.

Dan Wesson uses quality parts and they pay a lot of attention to the final product and all of them that I've handled and shot seem to be more than the sum of their parts.

Les Baer makes a fantastic pistol for sure and for a box-fresh, brand new 1911, the accuracy of his guns impresses me. The feel of the final lock-up fitment of these pistols are truly like nothing else in my experience. I've owned Brown and Baer and handled and fired Wilson Combat and countless others, I still haven't felt anything that locks up like a Baer in full battery.

My biggest complaint on Baer is that their basic finish is not at all durable. If you carry IWB and you sweat, the finish doesn't like it.

If it were me making the purchase... I would be torn between a low-to-middle Dan Wesson or a used Les Baer. Personally, I believe the Dan Wesson would be a better looking pistol.

I wouldn't buy a Colt for more reasons than I care to list.

I'll be interested to hear where you end up.

The Dan Wesson is a production pistol with production tolerances and fitting. The Les Baer tolerances and hand fitting are on a different level, well above that of a production pistol. I carried a Colt 1911 for many years as LE and the tolerances and fitting of that pistol were truly junk. It always fired but it was nothing anyone should be proud of. Long story on the Colt but that is for a different time and place and I don't want to go off topic to your question. I own Wilson, Ed Brown, and several different Les Baer pistols. I carried two different Baer pistols, a Thunder Ranch and a Concept VIII, as my LE pistol for the last 15 years of my career. The Les Baer pistols are works of art but priced at a very reasonable level for a pistol of this quality.

You will never be sorry if you purchase a Les Baer but you will always wonder if you settle for a factory production pistol. This is my opinion based upon my experiences and I wish you good luck in making your decision sir.

__________________
LE instructor/Detective

I have various Baers and Dan Wessons and after owning, shooting and understanding the Dan Wesson build philosophy as they call it, that really resonates with me. I prefer them over my Baers. To me the Dan Wessons I have and have shot are perfect fitted and super accurate and beautifully finished. The Baers are hard fit, meaning there is some canting going on to achieve the same results as a perfect fit would. I also have a 1.5 guarantee Baer and that does not have the hard 'canted' fit. It seems smoother and more fully fit and that seems to be the norm for the 1.5 guaranteed guns. The Baers have a utilitarian finish with flats and corners which border on the crude and I am over that. Anyway...you can google more on that but independent of the price, Dan Wesson every day for me. Have another, the A2 coming in and I am very excited.

Colt, not really. I have owned them but they are nowhere near what I expect in a 1911 even in basic ability to shoot groups. Before them I would investigate the Smith E-series. I see them around and owners seems to be happy. They are a series 70 slide as well and very popular in competition environments. I would also investigate the Sig 1911 a bit more. Those have a firing pin block but I would still be interested to try as I see the factory producing great CNC made and production fit guns such as P210. I would get a target grade 1911 without hesitation but so far have no direct experience other than handling a few.

Who would you recommend to do the custom work to make it run and group like the other two?

Les Baer stainless Comanche, took the required 500 rounds to break in. It was as accurate as a hardball match gun. Just one complaint the top of the slide was as abrasive as 240 sandpaper, which would abrade holsters, leather or plastic.

DW Valor is very nice .45, mine has the black finish and is loaded with small touches like a beveled edge on the bottom of the slide. I have only shot it once.

__________________
Made it, Ma! Top of the world!

Four letters... begins with "C"...

If your up in years and have a touch or two, or three, etc of arthritis. You might want to find one you can test working the action on. I bought one and had to turn around and sell as the only way I could break the slide was with the palm of my hand.

__________________
Vietnam 1969-1971

HAHAHA!!!!!!! I love you guys.

I figure I'm as red blooded an American as there is and I don't and won't own a 1911. I have in the past. Sold them, and was happy to do it. I have no particular use for them. I don't like them for concealed carry, and I can shoot targets with anything. YMMV and, of course, it definitely does.

__________________
Come and take it!!

Here’s another thought. A 9mm 1911 is just as American as a .45acp. Bill Wilson, Ken Hackathorn, and other reputable shooters now carry 9mm. One in the tube and ten in the magazine. I have several in .45acp including a Colt Series 70 Wiley Clapp that is a nice shooter. I have a stainless Dan Wesson Pointman 9 and a Wesson Vigil Lightweight Commander in 9mm. Those are guns I shoot most as they are cheaper to shoot, more fun, and less recoil than my .45’s. The lightweight Commander is a great carry alternative. No experience with Les Baer but a great reputation. Both of my Wesson’s were guns traded for Wilson and Nighthawk 1911’s purchased for hundreds under MSRP. Barely shot.

__________________
SWCA 3255 SWHF 615

I'd go secondhand on a Wilson (I have, twice), Baer, NHC, GI or Brown. If I had issues with it I'd KNOW the original maker would make it run right. It might or might not cost me, but when it came back it would function flawlessly.

In spite of a couple of good experiences in my lifetime, I wouldn't expect the same from any standard mass-producer.

__________________
Carry.."hope" isn't a strategy

I agree with the above statement. DW is the most bang for the buck in the forged 1911 world. I've never owned a Baer, but some caution against the non-full sized Baer for reasons I don't recall. You should also check out Ed Brown. Nighthawk and Wilson. It's been a while since I was in the market, but those were the big 3 several years ago with Baer rounding out the top 4. Personally I prefer the frame/grip safety geometry of the Wilson over the Ed Brown, but Ed Brown makes a beautiful 1911. All that being said none of them will out shoot my CCO Dan Wesson.

NHC? GC?
Please fill me in on these?
Thank you.

__________________
Keep on keepin on
SWCA #-3282

I appreciate all the feed back. While I understand the purity of the Colt (I think that’s what folks were getting at), I don’t see the quality in them that has gone into the Les Baer, Dan Wesson or Sig Sauer. I don’t want to start an argument here, but this has been my experience. Although it has been very little to be honest.

I read somewhere the Sig gets there parts from India and S&W uses MIM parts. I was seriously considering the Sig Super Target until I read the India thing. If I am mistaken, please let me know.

I believe Wilson and Ed Brown are out of my price range, truth be told Les Baer is a bit of a stretch as well but acceptable. At the moment the Dan Wesson I am eye balling is the Bruin. Not sure which model of Les Baer I’m partial too.

__________________
Keep on keepin on
SWCA #-3282

From experience have owned several Les Baer. They are a great 1911 and a quality 1911 and a good value for the 1911 You will get. I have also owned Colt Gold Cup really good gun but Baer is way better.

NHC is (I assume) Nighthawk, a small outfit made up of guys who left Wilson Combat and set up in the same podunk town in Arkansas. There’s some really personal soap opera-type hijinx behind the break-off of these guys and this newer company. I have zero experience with the pistols hands-on, but they get good reviews. I find them gaudy and expensive, given the other options that I do have experience with, I would never consider one for any reason.

GI is Guncrafter Industries. These have a fantastic reputation. I love the way they make these absolutely clean in design, not mucked up with anything gaudy. A shooting bro (who also owns a handful of Baer, Wilson and Dan Wesson) has a single Guncrafter and it is nice, but he still prefers a Baer over the GI, and the Baer typically carries a lower price.

I own both and several other brands, from RIA to EB. Best value between the two is a toss up for me - you can’t go wrong with either. Both are high quality 1911 manufacturers who do things a little different, don’t use MIM and bring appreciable characteristics and value to the table at the $1500 - $2000 price range.

FWIW, I no longer have a single Colt 1911 in my safe, however I wish I still had my GCNM Delta Elite. Selling it was a big mistake.

Attached Images

	9D291F47-F8FC-4B22-A2DF-047F38EFF4D0.jpg (97.5 KB, 4 views)
	CB99C521-E457-482A-A95B-04D46F5DAE6B.jpg (81.7 KB, 2 views)
	9ED42EAE-BBA6-4705-AF99-1A4EC6A529E6.jpg (82.5 KB, 3 views)
	3AFDC1E6-E86E-4DF9-B5BA-C658DB947DCA.jpg (103.7 KB, 4 views)

This is the S&W forum...

Hunt up a S&W PC 945. It’s not a 1911, but you won’t be disappointed!

__________________
"I also cook."

Hey now, let him chase down 1911’s. 40 different gunmakers are spitting out hundreds of 1911’s a day, whereas 945’s are long out of production.

Let him discover the pure joy of a 945, sure, but if he wants a 1911, that’s a different animal and no legwork to find one.

Whoa whoa....easy fellas! Lol...... this 1911 will only be my 3rd semi auto, a whole new world to me.

I’m not finished with my 5 screw collection yet, I figure it’ll be some time before I get my toes wet in S&W semi autos. At least I hope so, I can’t afford all the wheel guns I’m sweet on right now!

On a serious note, I really appreciate the comments/advice.

Thank you
Bob

__________________
Keep on keepin on
SWCA #-3282

I've owned Colt, Kimber, American Classic, Rock Island, and Springfield Armory 1911's. I'm a slightly above average bullseye shooter and a pretty good combat shooter and all those guns were perfectly reliable and equally accurate in my hands with maybe a slight edge to the Kimber just because it had an awesome 2-1/2 lb trigger. If this is only your third handgun and your're not rich I would suggest something cheaper and spend the rest of the money on ammo and practice and once you become a great shot and can shoot 2-1/2" groups at 25 yards offhand with a Les Baer then go ahead and buy one.

I'm not bashing Kimber I have owned several of them but when I got my first Baer they all were sold.

Bang for the buck, Dan Wesson Pointman series guns are the best out there.

I own three, 2 PM45's and 1 PM9. One PM45 is a carry gun and the other two are set up for USPSA competition. Massive round count through all of them and they all run flawlessly.

I have owned and shot all of the other 1911 platforms out there. Some are good, some are great, some are garbage.

I don't see that there will ever be any 1911's in my safe that aren't DW.

If it were me, then I'd buy a Colt then buy aftermarket parts to make it all the more special.

__________________
Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

I take my DW CCO to the gunshow. Everyone that picks it up, racks the action, get this big grin on their face. I can't count the number of people who have said it was nicer than their $3k custom jobs... Baer, Ed Brown, etc.

Pick out a DW model that suits you and send me the money you save. We'll both be happy.

__________________
Charlie

Got an STI Trojan from a friend in 9mm, wanted a 1911 in the safe after I sold the Para Ordnance Limited. Nice gun, shot little, has a nice trigger pull, he added a mag well and is very accurate. The 9mm is good enough for me, getting older and it doesn’t kick much. Good luck in your choice Bob, you’ll find a nice one. Larry

My Les Baer Premier II has had a lot of rounds through it. I've had this gun for over 15 years, but it just gets better every time I shoot it!

[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]

Les Baer definitely gets my vote.

__________________
Dave Brown
SWCA #3279

Bob, I've owned more than one of each. Don't think you could go wrong with either. Were I in the market now days, I'd just pick the one with the features I wanted, whether that happened to be DW or Baer.

__________________
NRA Life, COTEP 640

My sentiment exactly. Shot my buds PM 9 and decided I need to have one too. My 9mm Silverback is the most beautiful of all my autos and the most rewarding to shoot, tight but smooth and soft cycling...totally love it.

Attached Images

	fullsizeoutput_7a2.jpg (67.9 KB, 52 views)
	fullsizeoutput_7a3.jpg (82.9 KB, 39 views)

Not meaning to break the thread here, but I see high-dollar Baers, Wilsons, Browns, etc., all set up with state of the art sights and match barrels and fancy bushings.

Will someone please tell me the advantage (if any) of triggers and hammers with holes in them? Seriously. And please don't say "weight reduction", okay? Any weight reduction would be so slight as to be irrelevant (my opinion).

I'm an above average bullseye shooter. Not in the top 3, but at least in the upper third.

I consider a K22 and an M41 to be quite accurate as far as production guns go. As far as center fire semis, my Gold Cup is actually more accurate than I am. Thus, I see no need to modify it.

Maybe if the wind were right and the planets aligned I could get a better score with a Baer. But at that price point, it isn't cost effective.

I am a huge fan of S&W, but I Do like older Colts as well. Nothing sacred about a Colt, and nothing against a Baer, but I just don't see the need.

One of my other 1911s (not A1) shoots terrible groups but I get more enjoyment from shooting that one than any of my others. Its a 1915 manufacture and still runs 100% with anything I feed it.

"Will someone please tell me the advantage (if any) of triggers and hammers with holes in them? Seriously. And please don't say "weight reduction", okay."



Okay. Here's the three-hole trigger explanation:

Xavier Thoughts: 1911 Trigger Changes

1911 Trigger Changes
I was asked recently why custom 1911s almost always have a skeletonized silver trigger. It is a fair question. After all, if the 1911 is supposed to have such a wonderful trigger, if that is the allure of the gun, then why do people always swap it out?

GI triggerOne of the beautiful things about Browning's brainchild is the single action trigger can be tuned to extremely light pull weights and extremely short strokes. In bullseye shooting, it is not uncommon for pistols to have triggers so light that hummingbirds hovering nearby can set them off (not really, but almost). Trigger pulls this light are desirable in bullseye to achieve extremely precise marksmanship.

A problem arose with the 1911 however. Under recoil, the heavy machined steel trigger would bounce, causing the pistol to shoot doubles, and sometimes triples at very light trigger weights. The wider trigger shoes often affixed to 1911 triggers in those days only exacerbated the problem. The first solution was to drill holes in the steel trigger shoe to lighten it up. A lighter trigger would not be so subject to bouncing under recoil. In those days, aftermarket parts were not available, and gunsmiths fabricated parts rather than swapping them out.

Vickers triggerSoon, three round holes in your trigger became the sign of a top flight trigger job. Then aluminum triggers came on the market. Of course, the new fangled lightweight aluminum triggers had the same three holes, so everyone would know you had a trigger job on your pistol. These triggers have a set screw in them for overtravel adjustment, but they have no provision for pre-travel. If I remember correctly, Videcki was the first out the chute with this lightweight "pow button", and Bill Wilson was quick to catch up. This type of trigger is today frequently seen in off the shelf pistols.

McCormick triggerOther, even lighter triggers soon appeared on the market. One of my old favorites, the Dlask trigger, has a magnesium shoe and titanium stirrup. It can be adjusted for pre-travel as well as over-travel. The Dlask trigger was my favorite for a long time, simply because of that adjustment capability. Then, Chip McCormick introduced his lightweight trigger which caused a sensation. It was a less expensive trigger than the Dlask, but allows the same adjustments. There are other triggers available with changeable shoe lengths, plastic shoes, and even shoes with ball bearings. None of these special triggers constitutes a trigger job by itself. A 1911 trigger job occurs on the sear and hammer hooks, not in the trigger guard. Like chrome valve covers on a hot rod engine, these aftermarket triggers are just visible indicators that a trigger job has been performed on the gun.

Solid aluminum triggerToday, most off the shelf 1911s have skeletonized aluminum triggers. These are usually of the three hole "Videcki" design, making the triangular holed McCormick trigger the sign of the custom trigger job. Ironically, many top flight pistolsmiths are moving back to the solid aluminum trigger today. The skeletonized aluminum triggers were and are all about fashion. The skeletonization is simply not needed in an aluminum trigger. Thus, the 1911 trigger has come almost full circle in outward appearance. What is old is new again.

I have two DW 1911's and one LB. Like all of them.
If money is not an issue get a Bear 1.5" group. Accuracy is really something and if you don't get another 1911 having a hand fit pistol is very cool.
My humble opinion.

I spent a lot of time this past year thinking about the Les Baer and the DW A2 - exactly the same two pistols the OP is considering. There is something old school about the Baer pistols that is very appealing, although as ‘tight’ as they are reputed to be, they might be hard to use until well broken in.

But I decided what I was really hankering for was an all-steel pistol that is accurate. Forays into ownership of a 5906 and a 915 (admittedly both 9mm guns) were not as rewarding as I had hoped, even after adding new Novak sights installed by Novak’s in Parkersburg, because I never got the accuracy I hoped for.

I eventually stumbled on CZs in the past three or four months and have, with all three of them I own, found the all-steel guns, the build quality, and the accuracy I want in my pistols. Not that I am suggesting a CZ-75 in place of a Les Baer or a DW (which is also made by CZ) but it is something to think about...

__________________
S&W Rover

If I was to buy a custom 1911, I would save enough to buy a Wilson Combat. I’ve shot Baer, Ed Brown, and Wilson side by side. IMO the Wilson was just a bit more refined.

But since I don’t need nor want to pay for a custom, my Dan Wesson is all I need. Its still the best production gun available. Much better than “legendary” 1911’s of yesteryear.

__________________
Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

A production gun can not compete with a custom one. I have three Les Baers and two Nighthawks. Nighthawk is presently doing custom work on my LW Colt Commander. I also have two Kimbers, which probably compares to the DW.

What you have to decide is if you’re willing to settle for a production gun, or spend more money on a custom. I think the custom gun will be more accurate, but the difference isn’t probably that noticeable when fired off hand. For me, it’s more a matter of personal pride. My edc is my Nighthawk T3. Some people flinch at carrying a high dollar pistol for fear of loosing it in a shooting. My thought is if I’m betting my life, I want the best I can get.

A DW will shoot better than 99% of the actual people shooting it.
SW and Sig are not "true" 1911's with external extractors (although work very well and in some ways better.)

Attached Images

	DSC01038.jpg (136.2 KB, 22 views)
	DSCF0360.jpg (124.8 KB, 25 views)

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

I bought a Les Baer Custom Carry about five years ago. Check out my 3 or 4 posts about the problems I had with it in this thread.

Does Les Baer Have Quality Control Issues?

They did fix it, but the serrations on the slide still do have flat spots on them. There just isn't enough material on the slide to form sharp edges on the serrations. I figure they rushed this one out the door. I also own a Concept VII that I bought used. They both work flawlessly now. (LB magazines, well that's another story. They're better off left in the box.)

Years ago I spoke to a guy in a shop that sent his Springfield back to their custom shop to have them work their magic on it. (To their credit they even used parts from other manufacturers that he provided.) Then, the DW's were introduced. He said if he could do a do-over, he'd get a stock DW.

The Dan Wessons I've looked at are tight and the machining and finish are flawless. I've even looked over discounted, factory "flawed" DW's; I couldn't find anything wrong with them.

Bill

Yeah, I'd like to hear the advantage, too. My guess is less mass, lower force to get it moving.

Bill

Options, buy a high dollar 1911 and hope we get a good one then make changes. Or buy a good used one for a build platform?

A low budget, affordable price, for a 1911, no frills, no bells or whistles would serve you well as your first 1911.

i like the ‘04 auto ordnance army $389 clone, the ‘04 SA GI milspec $424 which are great shooters and didn’t break my piggy bank. Both 1911’s have been flawless so far. I have a SA series 90 that has a tighter slide fit it’s a awesome shooter too.

My best 1911 is my norinco project. Forged frame n slide, For under $400 total the performance and accuracy is hard to match at any price I built it myself. Shoots clusters and cloverleafs at 25 yds, with wolf ammo. I don’t need a high dollar 1911.

Btw, accuracy is in the bushing to barrel fit. My norinco has the orginal slide to frame fit yet it’s very accurate. I did fit the barrel and bushing for a 100% lock up in full battery.

Buy what you want it’s your choice.

Shoot what you are considering buying and see if any of the big name guns provide better results for the big chunk of money difference.
I had a Kimber and a Wilson that were very comparable as far as size and other characteristics. After shooting both I sold the Wilson. Name and big bucks don't always come out ahead.

I don't know enough to speak to the DW or the Baer 1911's. I feel pretty satisfied w my Colts & my SA., I have a S80 Colt & a S70 Colt as well as a SA Mil-spec {NM new model}. I shoot the SA a LOT more than the Colts for 2 reasons, to save wear on my Colts & see just how hard I can push the SA Mil-spec, so far (in the 3 months I have had the SA) about 1000 rounds w no malfunctions at all & it is more accurate than I am. Solid Barrel / bushing fit, well fitted throughout the pistol as well. I did change the FP (Dumped the Titanium) & spring as well as the FP block., replaced recoil spring to a standard Wolf 18.5 lb. W Pachmayr sig. grips it shoots for me about as perfectly as I can imagine. IF the OP has the means for a custom LB or a DW, scratch the itch...I'd rather buy another Colt. Apologize for not contributing much to the OP's ordinal question...

I will offer this, if this is your first 1911 U might consider a first purchase basic Colt or SA & just shoot the *&IT out of it & see if U really like the platform., learn about it, then U'll be in a good position to judge what U really want.

My 1911’s I shoot at the range, I don’t ccw them anymore. There safe queens.


I lube the rails and bushing with moly so it doesn’t wear. Just a Little will do.

I have owned and built a bunch of 1911s. I think you would be happy with either one.

__________________
Even older, even crankier....

Well...... you all have definitely given me much to consider. It’s always a good idea to seek out experience and listen to opinions and options before diving into something. “You can’t know everything” my grandfather used to say.....

It’ll be some time before I take the plunge as I just spent half my 1911 $$$ on an “ole Smith” that “you just don’t see everyday” .

Ugh.......The game continues.

I had briefly considered building/putting together my own but I quickly remembered my AR 10 experience/decision. Thread drift.....a few years back I had the hankering for a quality AR 10 in 308. “I’ll build one” I told myself, I knew what I wanted in a final product, so I went to digging around on the internet. I found the “Snipers hide” forum, joined and read and read and read. Found a user on there building his/her own AR 10. This person seemed like a well respected/knowledgable forum Member....so I took note of their project. They listed every part they bought, brand, where they bought it, price so on and so forth. They weren’t buying junk, they were buying high end, high dollar parts. In the end, the rifle didn’t shoot. It fired, sent rounds “down range” but results were not equal to the amount of money spent. Anybody can “build an AR”, they are like tinker toys and Lincoln logs. But....there are always “tricks to the trade”, little details that only come from experience. So I decided to just buy one, and I am more than estatic with my decision. I don’t see me building my own 1911 in the near future, my hats off to those of you who aren’t afraid to try/do. I however, am afraid and don’t have the time nor the patience for a project of that magnitude.

Thank you all for your perspectives!

Bob

__________________
Keep on keepin on
SWCA #-3282

I just bought a Springfield Mil-spec Defender .45 for $478 shipped. I love the original Government Issue look and don't care for the beaver tails, extended controls, and other doo-dads added on. The gun is extremely accurate and has a nice trigger and I can't think of a single thing I would do to the gun to improve it even if Les Baer offered to do the work for half price.

Can't speak of dan wesson, though they seem to be a real value for what goes in to them. I went with a les baer 1.5" premier II. I figured they spend a lot of extra time on an already great pistol tuning it from a 3" to a 1.5" gun. Not that I can shoot well enough to see a difference. But it was only 200 more than the 3" which is a steal for a few extra hours of baer shop time. As others have said my biggest complaint is the lackluster finish on the baer. Now I just have to get rid of that aircraft carrier of a thumb safety they put on them. By the way I got it in February last year and put 4700 rounds through it with no malfunctions, well, other than when I tried to see how light I could go with some 200gr flat points. Yes, I keep count by primers how many round go through it. I wanna see how long this you know what will run.