On another thread about Les Bayer pistols I learned they sell an upgraded gun guaranteed to shoot 1.5 inch 10 shot groups at 50 yards from a machine rest and I looked up prices and saw some for about $2,100 at Bud's Gunshop. That's pretty incredible accuracy for defensive handgun and I just wondered if there were any other 9m/m or .45 handguns that would come close to that for a bit less money?

Sig P210 will do that SOMETIMES with SOME ammo. I imagine the 952 will do that also. CZ 1911s (Dan Wesson) come with a target showing a group normally at 25M, often 1.5”
Plenty of 1911s by the top makers will do it, but as far as I know only Les Baer will guarantee it.

I've never owned a Les Baer gun, but the company has made this guarantee (for extra dollars) for a long time now, maybe more than twenty years.

A 945 will do that easy . Problem is finding one they will let go of . A shooter is even harder . Seems like BNIB is easier to find than a shooter .

Les Baer is a semi-custom production gun . Not the prettiest , but a solid choice . Beware that it's often not possible to get the same accuracy results as their factory claims . Many full custom builds will also guarantee the same level of accuracy , but not at the same costs . I've shot a bunch of 945's & never had a 10 round group @ 50yds close to 1.5" . A Briley bushing on a serious gun is not a good choice . A Range Queen paper puncher OK , but not a gun you'd use for SD . A good pistolsmith who can properly fit a 1911 barrel / bushing & fit a slide to frame can equal the 1.5" @ 50yds . It does take a pretty good amount of labor & specialized technique . Bullseye pistolsmiths build them every day .

I unfortunately am not a machine just a guy that stands at a line and hits where I point. A relatively close line I might add

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Is that a gun No a lifesaver

Rock River offered a Bullseye Match 1911 in the 1990s that came with a 10 shot 1.5" 50 yds guarantee, using Federal Gold Match jacketed SWCs. Charles Petty put it to the test using a Ransom rest. He duplicated results that equalled or bettered the guarantee over and over.
John Giles used to test all his bullseye guns on his indoor 50 yd test tunnel. They were 5 shot groups, often as small as 1". This was with lead bullet handloads. He supplied the target and load info with each gun.

I used to shoot at a club that had a designated Ransom Rest steel I beam set in concrete. We'd bolt the rest to it and shoot at 50 yds.
One of the National Guard guys had a Cominolli Device. It is a single shot cannon breech that accepts a 1911 barrel. It was drilled to use the same mounting holes as the Ransom Rest. We would test a batch of Kart barrels, select the best and return the rejects for replacement. The best ones would shoot our handload using the Nosler 45 cal HP with a charge of VV 310 powder in Federal cases into 1" at 50 yds, 10 shots.
This was the barrel only. When fitted, you might get anywhere from 1.5-3" out of the gun in a Ransom Rest. However......often guys could shoot them better off the bench! The barrel to slide (hence the sights or slide mounted dot) was fine. But, the Ransom Rest adds the frame fitting into the equation. One more link in the chain, so to speak.

The original Neuhausen made SIG P210 is a different story! As a service sidearm it is unmatched for it's legendary accuracy.
As an example, units would receive a batch of 10 pistols. Each would be tested to meet the 50mm @ 50 meters standard for 10 shots.
But the real test was this: the armorer would disassemble each pistol, randomly mix the parts and fire an 8 shot group out of the machine rest. No sighting in. Each pistol was subsequently tested until a composite 80 shot group was fired. The expected result was an 80 shot 50 meter composite group not exceeding 80mm (if I recall, might have been 100mm).
That is what you call consistent hand fitted tolerances.

Jim

Some of these apex barreled updated M&P's should be able to do that from a ranson rest and bone stock sig X5 will . Army marksmanship team beretta M9 pistols will regularly shoot 10 rounds under 2" at 50 yards some well less that that . So if you want to dump good money on a LB upgraded model go right ahead .

The Beretta M9s used by the Army Marksmanship Unit are heavily worked over to get that kind of accuracy. David Sam's can build you an M9 with that kind of accuracy but it won't be cheap.

I'd like to think an M&P coukd shoot like that but I'm a little sceptical. Do you have some evidence you can point to that that is the case? I'm not being argumentative, I'm hope my scepticism is unfounded.

All Baers are guaranteed to shoot 3" or better at 50yds. You can pay extra for the 1.5" guarantee if you want it. I didn't when I bought my Boss or my Hemi, I haven't shot the Hemi yet but my Boss is very accurate and an easy gun to shoot well. I can't shoot 3" 50yd groups with any handgun but I like knowing the guns are capable.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

For a few dollars more the Rock River will make you throw rocks @ a Les Baer . Much better fitted with consistent repeatable accuracy .

Always look closely at those targets-check for stippling and powder burns

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Forum consigliere

That's a fantastic claim well within the capability of several manufacturers... Baer, Wilson, STI and more - that said, I can't remember any of my shootings or training sessions where I was using a ransom rest. Using good old human arms, hands and fingers, I'd bet you couldn't tell between a 1.5" gun and a 3" gun at 50yards.

If you have the money for the "upgrade", by all means.... very cool. From a daily carry, defensive standpoint, you'll never know.

If you plan to buy a 1.5” gun, be aware that you will most likely need to take far more care with your ammunition than you may be used to. My typical practice rounds that I have used for years in every .45 I’ve ever owned were nothing but trouble in the 1.5” gun.

As to the 1.5” guarantee, we’ll, I see the test target. Yes, I’ve tried to duplicate it. All I can say is (1) I’ve never come close, and (2) my results with my older Illinois gun are almost exactly the same.

I won’t be buying any more Bears. I have all I need, but if I did for some reason, I can’t see that it would be a 1.5-incher. I wouldn’t use my 1.5” gun for SD/CCW unless it was all I had. My 3” Illinois gun, yes. All this JMHO, based on my guns and my ability.

This is a GREAT point! The Baers may do it with the ammo they've selected. Wilson gives you their ammo used on the test target provided with the gun.

505Gibbs... IIRC Baer does, too. I think the target with my gun said Federal American Eagle 230 gr. ball, but I’d have to look to be sure. Whatever it was, I used the specified ammo and never came close. It might be that I received the info by calling Baer. I just can’t be positive without a little research.

This is an interesting thread, but I think some priorities are misplaced. Many a GI has gone into harm's way with a milspec 1911 that kept all it's rounds on a number 2 washtub at 25 yards, and removed the threat.

Personally, the last characteristic that I would want in an SD/HD pistol is match accuracy. I would rather spend extra money on a reliability package to ensure 100% function!

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Judge control not gun control!

Literally what I was about to post. Give me a tank, a beast, an ugly brute, a true going-to-war gun. Something you could drop in sand, dirt, mud, then run it over with a truck. Then make it cheap-enough that I wouldn't mind doing that, and slash at the finish a few times with a rusty rat-tail file so I don't worry over it.

I always laugh when someone shows off their $3,000 "custom CCW" gun, and it doesn't have a mark, scratch, or holster-rub on it.

I've owned some of the pistols squidsix mentions, and I suspect they would certainly be in that accuracy ball park. But they didn't guarantee it, I could never prove it. I don't have a machine rest, and shooting carefully as I can from the bench can only approach those 1 1/2" groups at 25 yards.

FWIW, I've owned a few Baers. The last, a Hardball National Match, has a 10-rd. test target of just under 2" at 50 yds. It does not have the 1 1/2" guarantee. It has functioned flawlessly with any hollow point or ball ammo I've used in it over the last 20 years or so. But I don't know if it would be as reliable in unfriendly environmental conditions as the well worn rattle trap of a 1911A1 I was issued in RVN years ago. But I'm still not going to drop in the the mud, run over it, or use a rusty rat tail-file on it

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NRA Life, COTEP 640

malph I could care less if you beleave or not . Open your eyes and see what your capable of from a bench with a good adjustable rest and some leather bags , Even try some upgrades if you have the ability . Maybe I still do after 64 years .

I asked for some evidence and I was polite about it.

To be clear, we are talking 50 yard accuracy here, not 25 yard, right?

Pistols that can shoot into 1.5 inches or less at 50 yards are not that common. Yes, I am a little sceptical that an M&P can do it but I'm willing to be educated. Heck, I'm hoping I'm wrong and the M&P is that good.

I'm not trying to call you out. My best guess was there was some misunderstanding here.

Given what goes into making a 1.5" BE gun--that's "holds the X-ring at 50 yards"--no, an M&P or XD is not gonna do it.

Shooting PPC during the time at the start of the semiauto competitions, the hunt was on for guns that would shoot 2" or less at 50 yards. Most of the PPC 9s 5" or 6" would hold sub 2",but were very ammo sensitive. I went through 4 before I found 1 that would hold 1 1/ 2" with the ammo I was using. I think S/W changed the twist around 2000/01 to favor the heavier bullets 124/147that became popular at that time. My older guns from the first runs shoot lighter 105/115 bullets best. A lot of times it was the first round that would spread the group by 1/2 ". Tried Springfield custom and found they could build using a barrel pretested to shoot my ammo the best . So it made things easier and the 3 built guns from them would all shoot sub 2" easily and held about 1.5 to 1.75 with any 124 gr to 147 gr bullets from Winchester or Federal.
As far as the comment about a Briley bushing gun being not good for self defense or EDC , its probably like everything else, depends who makes the gun and the care of the pistol. Heres my EDC and duty pistol, off duty match gun for 20 years or so, still groups 1" at 25 yrds and has way over 25,000 rds through it with out a hiccup. And its an alloy frame .CQB/ IDPA owners might add more comments to this I don't know.

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Understood. Tried to explain this to an engineer (?) on the Colt forum a few years ago. Lost cause. Don't know whether I was deficient in communication, or whether there was some generically deficient engineer outlook, or whether this individual had his own limitations. C'est la vie!

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Formerly Model520Fan

About 20 years ago, Les Baer was contracted to build a batch of 1911s for the FBI entry teams. As can be expected, the FBI asked for nearly impossible performance but Les Baer met their needs.

Excluding match competition, in my opinion, shaving the group size down to 1.5 inches at 50 yards is not worth the cost as few of us can hold anywhere close to that in an exchange of fire.

Agreed on the second point, although if the 1911 is correctly fit to achieve that kind of accuracy, it can have other benefits including being softer shooting and longer durability due to ideal fit, but even those things are measured in small increments to a pistol fit sufficiently well. Plus there's getting one fit like that just 'cause.

But the first point is mistaken: the Baer pistols delivered to the FBI HRT were troubled and the contract cancelled; the famous FBI trials for their SWAT teams Springfield ultimately won.

The FBI 1911 Contract >> Sight M1911

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Pickpocket

I think the question is: Do you really need 1.5" @ 50 yards for a defensive handgun"? (Especially from a machine rest) I think I would go after total reliability with most any kind of ammo......

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Vast difference between a Target Pistol & a duty gun . If one is capable of shooting solid Master level scores then they're able to take advantage of a 1.5" gun . When I first started in Bullseye many years ago a 3" @ 50yds was a competitive gun . Now days it's half that . Advances in barrel & frame fitting plus CNC machining have made that possible . Considering that a gun with those capabilities are literally handmade usually by one man with outstanding skills one can understand that a full custom built from scratch start about $ 3K & go up depending on the 'smith & bells & whistles one wants . The fact that Baer does it for $ 2,500 tells me they're not the same quality as a full custom . They couldn't afford to keep the doors open if they were . Among 1911 fanatics the Baer guns aren't rated all that high . Barrel fit is iffy & rest of gun is fitted too tightly . For a semi-custom production gun the Rock River 1911's are built better . For most no need to spend that kind of money unless one is a serious competitor . Also correct that 90% of shooters are unable to shoot a 1.5" gun to its potential . I've carried many guns but none were fit to that level . I want a duty gun to feed , extract flawlessly & go bang every time . For target I want the most accurate dependable gun I can get or build . Their only purpose is to shoot high scores . Competitive shooting is 90% mental . Too be able to fully focus on the task @ hand , one can not have doubts about their gun or ammo . By the time one's shooting solid Sharpshooter scores they've learned to call their shots . If shots are not " on call " then one is unable to be in the running . Somehow this discussion has confused the difference between a dedicated target gun & a duty gun .

Completely agree with boatbum.
When I was shooting in competition I had a Hammerli 162. That gun (with the right ammo) was capable of a ten round ragged hole at 50 Meters.


No way in the world I could come anywhere near its capabilities, but I knew that anything other than the ragged hole was me, not the gun.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I installed a new surplus USGI barrel with a nm barrel bushing in my norinco 1911 and she shoots cloverleafs and clusters now using Russian wolf ball ammo at 25 yds. I need to try my swc reloads next.

For my first build I wanted to use the cheapest parts to see how accurate it could be. I never expected it to be that accurate,

Used norinco $300
Usgi surplus barrel $59 sportsman guide
Nm barrel bushing $15 CDNN investments.
FLGR W/#18 spring $9 sportsman guide
Full wrap around rubber grips, $8 CDNN
Adjustable trigger. $18 CDNN

Labor 0 my work priceless. I added the disconnector ramp, fitted the nm barrel bushing for 100-% lockup. On the final fitting I lapped the barrel into the bushing.

I am skeptical about Les Baer's claims. I also agree that for a carry pistol, the 1.5" guarantee is a waste of money. The best machine rest group I ever saw was shot from a Rock River full on accurized .45 ACP wadcutter pistol built specifically for bullseye pistol match shooting. It was a ten shot 7/8" group fired from a Ransom Rest using a reload of 185 gr. Nosler JHP over a charge of Alliant Bullseye powder. That pistol was very reliable from the git go, too! Even a gun capable of shooting 3" groups at 50 yards will take a good shooter into the Master Class and probably the 2600 club. I like my defensive pistols to be capable of shooting 3" at 25 yards, unsupported with the right ammo. I do think that a certain amount of accuracy gives one confidence in his/ her equipment and is helpful, but doesn't replace hard work to master the fundamentals of pistol shooting.

What is there to be skeptical of? All Baer guns are guaranteed to be able to shoot 3" or better at 50yds, if you want to pay for it they'll build you a gun guaranteed to shoot 1.5" or better at 50yds. Pretty simple, pretty clear, and they've made the same guarantees for at least a couple of decades. Because the shooter isn't capable of wringing that kind of performance out of a pistol isn't a reason not to buy one.

Everyone shoots better with a more accurate gun. If the gun is built to a guaranteed level of accuracy then you know that whatever accuracy issues you see on the range is the shooter, not the gun. If all a gun is capable of is a 5" group at a given distance then the shooter is going to have a real hard time shooting it better than that, no matter how good they are.

My Baers are not 1.5" guns but they are certainly more accurate in my hands than most of my other 1911s. They've been perfectly reliable on the range and in matches as well. I have no issues with carrying one for protection and if I was still on the job I'd have no problem using one for duty carry, either.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

Anytime I "outshot" the gun I attributed it to dumb luck....

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Unless the claim is able to be duplicated, it is just that, a claim. I doubt that there are many who have the ability and equipment to try to match it. It's easy to make a claim that will in all likelihood rarely be contested. Glad you are happy with your Les Baer pistols and have had good luck with them. Not everyone shoots better with a more accurate gun. Flinching, jerking the trigger or any other bad technique negates any advantage.

I once took a semi tricked out SA frame and fitted an aftermarket slide to it cut for Bo-Mar sights. I bought an Ed Brown barrel and bushing set from Brownells. Off a rest it would shoot 3/4" at 35 yards, never tried 50.

Look around the interwebs, plenty of folks have tested their Baers to confirm the claimed accuracy and the guns shoot as advertised. Other manufacturers also make accuracy claims but the guarantee is always that the gun is capable, not that you will be able to shoot it that well.

So, people that have a flinch or jerk the trigger or other poor technique will shoot a mechanically less accurate gun better than a mechanically more accurate one? That makes no sense. They'll shoot poorly with either gun but a more accurate gun will lessen the effect of the gun in the equation.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

Depends on just how lucky they are. As long as the flinch or jerk isn't consistent might put them "on target". (See my above....)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I didn't say that. I said that bad marksmanship, like jerking the trigger will negate any advantage a more accurate gun is capable of giving one. If you don't know how to shoot well, no better ammo or gun or sight or anything else will help you shoot more accurately. Would you care show photos of how well your Baer pistols shoot at 50 yards?

The guy who built one of My guns did 1 and 1/4 inches @ 50 yards with a ransom rest. He also did the checkering, sights, grips, and did send it out for the hard chrome. He took one like it to the basic pistol at Gunsite around 1980 and got a letter from Mr. Cooper stating that while the cosmetics and the accuracy were phenomenal, 6 inches at 50 yards was adequate for Pedestrians.

Well we all have our opinions . For those who are interested on the 1911 Addicts Forum , Joe Chambers has a thread titled " Barrel Fit Challange " . Very informative . You will see actual pics of good & bad barrel fit . You will also see that many ( some high dollar customs ) examples of poor fitting . Some think that long barrel feet with zero side clearance on barrel hood equal accuracy . They don't . They actually allow the barrel to cant when going into battery & in turn only be bearing on 1 lower lug . Hood should be fitted with .002 - .003 clearance on the sides , that allows barrel to self center & bear on both lower lugs .
For those who don't know of Joe Chambers he is a nationally known Bullseye 'smith . He apprenticed under the great Bob Marvel who built guns for some National Champs including Darius " Doc " Young & Ruby Fox . I believe he's forgotten more about proper barrel fit than most will ever know .
You want a Baer gun buy one . You got one & you're happy good for you . I think that if one keeps an open mind & reads that entire thread they'll come away with a different point of view .

Maybe using a lock down bench rest and good proven ammo it can be done
I don't now how they substantiate their claim to guarantee that accuracy but other than that 50% of accuracy depends on the shooters ability I do pretty good with my model 27 6 1/2
but let someone else shoot it not very good

I’ve never bothered to measure my Baers. Two of the three I’ve had shot very well. Lacking a machine rest and the knowledge to use it properly, I can’t say exactly how well, but I’m satisfied. One of the three wasn’t so good. I sent it to Baer and eventually talked with Mr. Baer. I could see what the problem was without measuring anything. Mr. Baer took a different approach and told me he considered the barrel was ruined by improper ammo/bad cleaning. I had the gun returned and eventually it was repaired by a gunsmith who got it shooting to his and my satisfaction - without paying $600 for a new barrel.

All that said, I’m not going to complain about Baer.

One, it sounds like you did.

Two...was this a new gun? Then yes, you absolutely should complain. Not to mention, $600 for a barrel?! Are they high? KC Crawford will fit a match barrel, barrel link, and pin for $250 in labor. The absolute most expensive Kart 1911 barrel is another $250. I doubt that one of Baer's anonymous gunsmiths is any better than KC.

The real question is not what can it do from a machine rest but what can it do from your hands.

Would you please tell me how to search for that thread over on 1911 Addicts, I can't find it.
Thanks,
Stu

This is important. It's not about "tight", it's about consistent lockup. A gun that's truly fit properly will not only be more accurate, it will be accurate for much, much longer.

A properly fit gun is also softer shooting & not clunky . Felt recoil is also less mainly because barrel isn't unlocking too soon . If you shoot an older one with a welded up & refit barrel felt recoil is much stiffer . The old timers had to do all kinds of stuff to get consistent lockup . Back then there was no oversize match barrels & aftermarket parts like now .