Seeking advice about the Winchester 1873 and load data.

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tomhenry

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Ever since I saw "Winchester 73" with Jimmy Stewart I've had a hankering for that rifle.

I'm doing some research and have placed a bid on a couple. I don't want a clone and am going to stick with Winchester.

45 Colt caliber.

Bullet type. Tubular magazine therefore no pointed bullets. SWC isn't "flat enough" for me, so I'm going with Hornady JHP XTP bullets. In the current market, cast bullets are nonexistent and, besides, I don't like cleaning after shooting cast.

But the biggest reason is pressure. Jacketed/plated bullets allow for moderately increased pressure. More so than cast.

Based upon my internet research, I've learned that with the 1873, higher pressures are preferable (to lower pressures) because at higher pressures the bullet case expands in the chamber and creates a seal that forces the gas and unburnt powder (soot) out the muzzle. But with lower pressure cartridges, gas and debris (soot) flow back into the action, gumming up the works.

In this thread:Acceptable pressures for the Replica 1873 Winchester? | The High Road

...the late RCModel said, "SAAMI spec for 45 Colt is 14,000 PSI. That is the only pressure suitable for use in any rifle with a toggle-link action."

I'm thinking that I can use any load up to 14,000 PSI in the 1873? If so (and because of limited bullet and powder choices in the current market), I'm looking at using Win 231 and Hornady JHP XTP 200 grain bullets.

231 is 7.8 grains, 956 fps, 11000 CUP. Max is 8.7, 1048 fps, 14000 CUP.

Maybe start with 8.0 grains 231 with the Hornady JHP?

BTW, I never load anywhere close to maximum levels. Except maybe for current manufacture semiautos. The majority of my guns are older, discontinued and I want to minimize wear and tear.

The '73 would be no exception. I want a load that does minimal damage to the gun but will allow that seal upon firing.

Also, it will be strictly a paper punching/gong gun that gets out of the safe maybe three times a year. So, receiver "stretching" shouldn't be an issue.

Besides, metallurgy has come a long way since the 19th century.
 
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If you're thinking on going with an original Winchester, the actual barrel metal is quite soft, so no copper cup and core bullets.
Now you said you were going with the .45 Colt version, which isn't an original chambering from Winchester. The .38 WCF and .44 WCF are the original chambering.
My dad has his Winchester 1873 carbine in .44 WCF, and he has loaded the .44-40 up to .44 Mag levels, and has been successful with those pressures.
As you said, no soot, and seals perfectly.
Even still, the trajectories are a might arched within 100 yds.


Hawk

Sent from my REVVLRY+ using Tapatalk
 
Hawkeye3844 said:
If you're thinking on going with an original Winchester, the actual barrel metal is quite soft, so no copper cup and core bullets.
Now you said you were going with the .45 Colt version, which isn't an original chambering from Winchester. The .38 WCF and .44 WCF are the original chambering.
My dad has his Winchester 1873 carbine in .44 WCF, and he has loaded the .44-40 up to .44 Mag levels, and has been successful with those pressures.
As you said, no soot, and seals perfectly.
Even still, the trajectories are a might arched within 100 yds.


Hawk

Sent from my REVVLRY+ using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I'm sorry. I didn't say "original", as in, antique.

What I meant was I'm going with the brand Winchester. No Uberti or Cimarron. But strictly modern manufacture.

But with the advances in metallurgy in the last 100 years, and precision from computer imaging, I wonder if we're not underestimating the strength of the modern toggle/link action of the 1873. Receiver stretching was a real thing, but that was back when the receivers were brass or, later, iron.

And I realize 45 Colt is not original to the gun. I just happen to have the dies and brass for it.

Thanks for your comment.

Actually, the 44-40 has the reputation of creating that "seal" much better than the 45 Colt. The explanation involves physics which, I only got a C- in college.

So, there's that.

But thanks again.
 
Bullets in 44-40 (44 WCF) need to be very soft! as in pure lead or 30:1 (30 parts lead to 1 part tin). If you don't like SWC shaped bullets, go with the Cowboy bullet, 200-204 grain Round Nose Flat Point, as it has a huge melplate. Before I bought the RCBS bullet mold, I bought bullets from several casters, it seems to be a very popular bullet, but most purchased bullets are too hard for old soft steel rifles and revolvers.

Bullet size: diameter ranges from as small as .427" (especially anything to do with Remington) up to .434" and a old wore bore can go higher! For Black Powder (FFFg) a diameter of .429" will expand to take the rifling.

My repro 1873 is in 44 Special, and has the same issues as the 45 Colt versions: they need to expand the straight walled case to seal the chamber (this stops powder blow back around the bolt, and gets in your eye- wear you shooting glasses !) 38-40 and 44-40 cartridges are bottle necked and the case walls are thinner, so they expand more easily!

I never liked Hodgeon's Pyrodex or Triple 7, in any of the size grades, for cartridges. But I do like American Pioneer Powder's ( also sold as Shockley's Gold and American Hunter) FFFg in large handgun and shotgun cartridges. There is plenty of smoke for competitions that require it. There is no sulfur, but cleaning must be done the same day. This has very little fouling, and is non corrosive, but like all the subs, will absorb moisture from the air and rust your gun!

Volume for volume, Black Powder will always be 50 to 100 fps faster than any of the substitutes! I found the American Pioneer to be the fastest of the subs in cartridge rifles.

Lastly, There are repo 73's in 357 Mag and 44 Mag, they have specially designer and hardened parts and receivers to handle the pressures. The long term life of those guns with magnum loads is still in question! They will last past the warranty, but how far?

Ivan
 
Ivan the Butcher said:
Bullets in 44-40 (44 WCF) need to be very soft! as in pure lead or 30:1 (30 parts lead to 1 part tin). If you don't like SWC shaped bullets, go with the Cowboy bullet, 200-204 grain Round Nose Flat Point, as it has a huge melplate. Before I bought the RCBS bullet mold, I bought bullets from several casters, it seems to be a very popular bullet, but most purchased bullets are too hard for old soft steel rifles and revolvers.

Bullet size: diameter ranges from as small as .427" (especially anything to do with Remington) up to .434" and a old wore bore can go higher! For Black Powder (FFFg) a diameter of .429" will expand to take the rifling.

My repro 1873 is in 44 Special, and has the same issues as the 45 Colt versions: they need to expand the straight walled case to seal the chamber (this stops powder blow back around the bolt, and gets in your eye- wear you shooting glasses !) 38-40 and 44-40 cartridges are bottle necked and the case walls are thinner, so they expand more easily!

I never liked Hodgeon's Pyrodex or Triple 7, in any of the size grades, for cartridges. But I do like American Pioneer Powder's ( also sold as Shockley's Gold and American Hunter) FFFg in large handgun and shotgun cartridges. There is plenty of smoke for competitions that require it. There is no sulfur, but cleaning must be done the same day. This has very little fouling, and is non corrosive, but like all the subs, will absorb moisture from the air and rust your gun!

Volume for volume, Black Powder will always be 50 to 100 fps faster than any of the substitutes! I found the American Pioneer to be the fastest of the subs in cartridge rifles.

Lastly, There are repo 73's in 357 Mag and 44 Mag, they have specially designer and hardened parts and receivers to handle the pressures. The long term life of those guns with magnum loads is still in question! They will last past the warranty, but how far?

Ivan
Click to expand...


If I buy the 1873, it will be for the Colt 45. Because of the dearth of supplies, I'll be using the Hornady JHP XTP bullet and either Winchester 231 or Titegroup powder.
 
tomhenry said:
Ever since I saw "Winchester 73" with Jimmy Stewart I've had a hankering for that rifle.

I'm doing some research and have placed a bid on a couple. I don't want a clone and am going to stick with Winchester.

45 Colt caliber.

Bullet type. Tubular magazine therefore no pointed bullets. SWC isn't "flat enough" for me, so I'm going with Hornady JHP XTP bullets. In the current market, cast bullets are nonexistent and, besides, I don't like cleaning after shooting cast.

But the biggest reason is pressure. Jacketed/plated bullets allow for moderately increased pressure. More so than cast.

Based upon my internet research, I've learned that with the 1873, higher pressures are preferable (to lower pressures) because at higher pressures the bullet case expands in the chamber and creates a seal that forces the gas and unburnt powder (soot) out the muzzle. But with lower pressure cartridges, gas and debris (soot) flow back into the action, gumming up the works.

In this thread:Acceptable pressures for the Replica 1873 Winchester? | The High Road

...the late RCModel said, "SAAMI spec for 45 Colt is 14,000 PSI. That is the only pressure suitable for use in any rifle with a toggle-link action."

I'm thinking that I can use any load up to 14,000 PSI in the 1873? If so (and because of limited bullet and powder choices in the current market), I'm looking at using Win 231 and Hornady JHP XTP 200 grain bullets.

231 is 7.8 grains, 956 fps, 11000 CUP. Max is 8.7, 1048 fps, 14000 CUP.

Maybe start with 8.0 grains 231 with the Hornady JHP?

BTW, I never load anywhere close to maximum levels. Except maybe for current manufacture semiautos. The majority of my guns are older, discontinued and I want to minimize wear and tear.

The '73 would be no exception. I want a load that does minimal damage to the gun but will allow that seal upon firing.

Also, it will be strictly a paper punching/gong gun that gets out of the safe maybe three times a year. So, receiver "stretching" shouldn't be an issue.

Besides, metallurgy has come a long way since the 19th century.
Click to expand...

1. Cast bullets are very existent. Check out cowboybullets.com for one place to get them. He's great and has SUPER turnaround times. I just ordered a bunch a few weeks ago from him.

2. As weird as an 1873 chambered in 45 Colt would seem to me, it would be even weirder to me to shoot jacketed bullets in it! You can do it, but why? They are more expensive, certainly not authentic to the experience you get with the gun, and I guess you could argue they are harder on the gun (although that's not a big deal in a modern gun).

3. If you want a good "seal" in the chamber, why not go for the 44-40 caliber? It is the proper, original chambering of the 73 back in the day, and since it has a slight bottleneck, it seals up the chamber very well. The 45 Colt was never chambered in the 73 until modern times. It will be dirtier in the chamber than the 44-40 no matter what pressure you load it to.

Also: If you decide to shoot black powder (which you should, it's very fun), the 44-40 is the superior choice there as well for those same sealing properties.

Either way, you should clean your gun after you shoot it (especially if you shoot black powder), so I doubt that the chamber sealing thing is even that big a deal....maybe more so of a big deal if you're shooting black.

Also note: the 73 isn't that strong of an action. You're on the right track by not wanting to max it out with heavy loads.
 
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tomhenry said:
If I buy the 1873, it will be for the Colt 45. Because of the dearth of supplies, I'll be using the Hornady JHP XTP bullet and either Winchester 231 or Titegroup powder.
Click to expand...

There is no difference whatsoever in supplies for 45 colt or 44-40.

Cases are readily available on gunbroker or elsewhere.

.430 or .428 bullets are readily available everywhere because of the 44 magnum. Cast bullets from low volume shops like the one I gave you above are probably the easiest place to buy them today...Jacketed bullets from the big makers are probably tougher to find.

Powder is the same between the two.

Flat out: the 44-40 is MUCH superior to the 45 Colt in rifles, especially with black. You should check it out!

I've even started to go to it more in the SAA's that I own too. I like it a lot better than the 45 Colt.
 
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tomhenry,

I own a Marlin 1894 Carbine for about 35 years. I have literally shot tens of thousands of 250 -255 grain LRN-FP bullets out of it over those years with absolutely no downsides! My standard S.A.S.S Cowboy loading was mild and consisted of 7.5 grains of Unique, a Lead bullet of 250 or 255 grains, and a descent crimp. I used this load for both my two Colt SAA Revolvers as well as the Carbine - it performed incredibly well with no leading.

I've also made up some (rifle only) hunting loads consisting of 9.5 grains of the Unique using the same 250 grain LRN-FP bullet which produces about 1,280 - 1,300 fps out of the Marlin - again no leading & no issues.

Even during the current ammo crises there is no problem at all getting Lead or Lead coated bullets for reloading. The problem is with Powder & Primers. If you were to get a hardness of 16 - 18 Brinell you should not have any issues what so ever!
 
I have an original 1873 Winchester musket and a Cimarron 1866 musket both in .44-40 and 2 uberti ‘73s in 45colt. I use cas rated lead RNFP loads in them and have no issues other than the usual Italian gun problems, too heavy springs and too soft impossible to unscrew screws. If I were going to hunt with a .45colt I would use my 1894 Marlin Limited. A much stronger action. The winchester dash calibers have thinner brass and were designed to expand to seal the chamber and keep it clean from black powder fouling. I wouldn’t try to load .44 mag velocity ammo for any toggle link pistol caliber rifle. Not made for it, get a Marlin.
 
tomhenry said:
If I buy the 1873, it will be for the Colt 45. Because of the dearth of supplies, I'll be using the Hornady JHP XTP bullet and either Winchester 231 or Titegroup powder.
Click to expand...

I had a Repo Lightning in 45 Colt. my normal Cowboy load was 5.5 gr. WW231, cast 200-230 RNFP Bullet. mixed brass, & any LP primer. That load was not stout enough to seal the chamber and I had powder blow back every shot! I use a similar load in the repo 44 Special '73, and never have blow back, I'll let you decide how stout of load to use.

Have fun!

Ivan
 
My shooter Winchester 73 is an orig that was a 38-40.
I had the bbl rebored to 44-40 by Ken Bresien.
I rebuilt the mechanism as it was sloppy loose. Including a new bolt head onto the orig bolt. I left the outside as-is.
It shoots very nice. I use 205gr LFN.
For quite a while I loaded only with BP Sub American Pioneer.
Accuracy was quite good, but I thought it could do better.
So I ventured into smokeless loads and settled on a light charge of RedDot and the same bullet. Accuracy improved quite a bit to my surprise.
I had fitted the rifle with an orig Lyman tang sight, a Lyman 2 leaf fold down rear bbl sight and a Lyman Beeches Folding combination front sight (#5 ?),,Lots of fancy sights for such a plain looking rifle!

My other 73 is also an orig in 44-40. A deluxe pistol grip, 1/2mag, 1/2oct, checkered. Perfect bore. I shoot that one some times too. It needs the small ebony insert in the pistol grip replaced. Gotta get to that sometime.

The repro 73's are some nice looking rifles of late. I think the Winchester branded rifles are still made for them in Japan (?).
Whatever,,they do a nice job.
 
Well, TomHenry, I expect down
the road to hear about you
shooting silver dollars out of the
sky. Just watch out for
Dutch Henry!
 
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