StrawHat
SWCA Member
How do I determine if engraving on a Winchester Model 12 is factory or aftermarket?
Thank you.
Kevin
Thank you.
Kevin
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Engraved Winchester Model 12
- Thread starter StrawHat
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It depends on the vintage of the gun. Nick Kusmit engraved a lot of guns for Winchester from the 50’s on. He typically marked them with his initials (N.K.) on the left side of the receiver on a rock in the foreground. His engraving ledger (by serial number) is in the Dave Riffle book on model 12’s. If you’ve got the serial number I can look it up. His brother John also engraved for Winchester, but I’ve not seen any list of guns he engraved.
Pauline Muerrle also engraved for Winchester. She’s still offering engraving today and will match factory patterns. She may be able to help verify factory engraving if you run into a dead end.
Pauline Muerrle – Winchester Factory Engraver, Author and Historian
Winchester did offer various grades of engraving on the Y Model 12’s. They had fancier wood/checkering and the receivers had a tendency to plumb, so the originals are pretty easy to spot. They don’t bring near the money of true factory engraved Model 12’s, so I doubt there are many “upgraded” examples out there.
This is a grade 5 engraved Model 12 Pigeon Grade done by Nick Kusmit. It's substantially more elaborate than the typical factory 12-5 pattern, but that's how it's listed in hs ledger. It shipped in 1957 and is signed. Note the wood is carved and checkered.
Nick's signature (his initials). I circled them to make them easier to find!
Here's a factory engraved "Y" Model 12 Pigeon Grade with the standard 12-5 pattern. The difference in detail between this and the Kusmit gun is night and day! You'll also note that the wood is checkered, but not carved.
…………………………….
Pauline Muerrle also engraved for Winchester. She’s still offering engraving today and will match factory patterns. She may be able to help verify factory engraving if you run into a dead end.
Pauline Muerrle – Winchester Factory Engraver, Author and Historian
Winchester did offer various grades of engraving on the Y Model 12’s. They had fancier wood/checkering and the receivers had a tendency to plumb, so the originals are pretty easy to spot. They don’t bring near the money of true factory engraved Model 12’s, so I doubt there are many “upgraded” examples out there.
This is a grade 5 engraved Model 12 Pigeon Grade done by Nick Kusmit. It's substantially more elaborate than the typical factory 12-5 pattern, but that's how it's listed in hs ledger. It shipped in 1957 and is signed. Note the wood is carved and checkered.
Nick's signature (his initials). I circled them to make them easier to find!
Here's a factory engraved "Y" Model 12 Pigeon Grade with the standard 12-5 pattern. The difference in detail between this and the Kusmit gun is night and day! You'll also note that the wood is checkered, but not carved.
…………………………….
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Ole Joe Clark
Absent Comrade
Plain model 12's are beautiful, and these are just outstanding, probably illegal they are so pretty. 
Have a blessed day,
Leon
Have a blessed day,
Leon
OP
StrawHat
SWCA Member
Thank you all for the pointers. If anything comes of it, I will let you know. This particular Model 12 has plain wood so I am leaning to aftermarket.
Kevin
Kevin
Hey Kevin, if it’s a reasonable price and you like it buy it. I have learned not to buy on impulse. Larry
The 'factory engraved' Winchester Model 12 is probably one of most 'humped' (to use a gun show/dealers term for faked) guns around. Those and the Winchester Model 42, Model 70 and the Winchester pump and semiauto 22s.
There are no Winchester Factory records on the m12, nor the m42 engraved guns.
There are the Kusmit personal records and other 'experts' opinions by looking at particular specimens that they are or are not factory engraved.
The experts opinions on originality are worth just that.
The fact that the gun had to be re-blued after any aftermarket engraving was done is the biggest giveaway to look for.
Factory work was done on the factory polished and not yet blued finish. Then the gun was blued after the engraving.
The Winchester Proof marks should be punched through the bluing,,not be under the bluing. Another easy to spot item. But the fakers have the proof mark stamps. Easily made or even for sale now a days to make your own Winchester look right.
Any Model 12 with a factory engraving pattern that extends onto the bbl would NOT have the WinProof mark up close to the breach as normally seen. That area was reserved for the engraving scroll pattern.
Even the Winchester bbl marking/gauge and shell length mark was usually moved forward to allow for the engraving.
The bbl proof mark when applied to the completely engraved and finish blued gun was struck ahead of the engraving towards the muzzle.
The factory engraving patterns are published in several books. They are not particularly difficult patterns to cut and variations are and were expected in them. Customers could select wildlife image differences in the patterns as well.
Riffles book is a good reference but many of the M12's in that book are upgrades done aftermarket.
A certain engraver did most of them and even did a few glaring mistakes but the guns were included anyway.
The flow of aftermarket fakes overcomes the real stuff out there and after a while know one seems to know whats real and what isn't.
Add to that the fake paperwork, boxes, hang tags and even Custom Shop letterhead and envelop correspondence.
The Custom Shop paper itself is real and is typed on the same typewriters used in the actual Custom shop.
It's just that it was never done IN the C/Shop. All that stuff went missing from the NewHaven location after it closed up.
Type up what ever you want it to say and date it as you want.
The same situation exists with the upgraded, excellent condition, NIB, w/paperwork and correspondence Winchester Model 61's, 62's and 63's around.
No factory records, Winchester made probably a handful at best Deluxe models of each. But now there's 100s of each around.
As far as a engravers signiture marked piece. The same old standby adage applies... 'Who's name do you want on it and where?'
Buyer beware. This is the reason many seasoned Winchester collectors have stopped buying M12's, 42, the 22's and the M70.
Late M12's were mostly sent out (farmed out) for engraving.
Engravers like Bill Mains when still in Buffalo NY did large numbers of those. I don't know if the guns were done by Bill under contract w/ G&R Tackle in W.Seneca NY where he did most of his work thru. G&R had Bill quite tightly tied up in a contract to do engraving but I don't recall if it was entirely exclusive or not.
Mains was also cutting Ithaca SBT guns at the time.
Used to drive him crazy sometimes doing that repetitive factory work. To get a break he'd get on his tractor and plow up some of his small garden plot just to get away from it.
There are no Winchester Factory records on the m12, nor the m42 engraved guns.
There are the Kusmit personal records and other 'experts' opinions by looking at particular specimens that they are or are not factory engraved.
The experts opinions on originality are worth just that.
The fact that the gun had to be re-blued after any aftermarket engraving was done is the biggest giveaway to look for.
Factory work was done on the factory polished and not yet blued finish. Then the gun was blued after the engraving.
The Winchester Proof marks should be punched through the bluing,,not be under the bluing. Another easy to spot item. But the fakers have the proof mark stamps. Easily made or even for sale now a days to make your own Winchester look right.
Any Model 12 with a factory engraving pattern that extends onto the bbl would NOT have the WinProof mark up close to the breach as normally seen. That area was reserved for the engraving scroll pattern.
Even the Winchester bbl marking/gauge and shell length mark was usually moved forward to allow for the engraving.
The bbl proof mark when applied to the completely engraved and finish blued gun was struck ahead of the engraving towards the muzzle.
The factory engraving patterns are published in several books. They are not particularly difficult patterns to cut and variations are and were expected in them. Customers could select wildlife image differences in the patterns as well.
Riffles book is a good reference but many of the M12's in that book are upgrades done aftermarket.
A certain engraver did most of them and even did a few glaring mistakes but the guns were included anyway.
The flow of aftermarket fakes overcomes the real stuff out there and after a while know one seems to know whats real and what isn't.
Add to that the fake paperwork, boxes, hang tags and even Custom Shop letterhead and envelop correspondence.
The Custom Shop paper itself is real and is typed on the same typewriters used in the actual Custom shop.
It's just that it was never done IN the C/Shop. All that stuff went missing from the NewHaven location after it closed up.
Type up what ever you want it to say and date it as you want.
The same situation exists with the upgraded, excellent condition, NIB, w/paperwork and correspondence Winchester Model 61's, 62's and 63's around.
No factory records, Winchester made probably a handful at best Deluxe models of each. But now there's 100s of each around.
As far as a engravers signiture marked piece. The same old standby adage applies... 'Who's name do you want on it and where?'
Buyer beware. This is the reason many seasoned Winchester collectors have stopped buying M12's, 42, the 22's and the M70.
Late M12's were mostly sent out (farmed out) for engraving.
Engravers like Bill Mains when still in Buffalo NY did large numbers of those. I don't know if the guns were done by Bill under contract w/ G&R Tackle in W.Seneca NY where he did most of his work thru. G&R had Bill quite tightly tied up in a contract to do engraving but I don't recall if it was entirely exclusive or not.
Mains was also cutting Ithaca SBT guns at the time.
Used to drive him crazy sometimes doing that repetitive factory work. To get a break he'd get on his tractor and plow up some of his small garden plot just to get away from it.
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lamarw
SWCA Member
The below pictured Model 12 is not engraved, but the modification and refinish work is something to behold. It has a combo of satin and bright nickel finish.
Shotgun is of 1916 vintage. The modification work was done by a Mr. Harry Dell, deceased, formerly of Birmingham, AL. He supposedly did other work for John Wayne. I have not been able to fine anything out about Mr. Dell.
Shotgun is of 1916 vintage. The modification work was done by a Mr. Harry Dell, deceased, formerly of Birmingham, AL. He supposedly did other work for John Wayne. I have not been able to fine anything out about Mr. Dell.
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OP
StrawHat
SWCA Member
Thank you very much for that information. It is fairly certain this gun was chiseled after it left the factory. There are a few discrepancies in finish and wear patterns.
But, it is a nice shotgun.
Kevin
OP
StrawHat
SWCA Member
Larry,
This is a 20 gauge at Mike’s place (WWWestlake), my brother is interested. If it happens, I will let you all know.
Kevin
Go to
Shotgunworld.com • Winchester Shotguns
Pauline Muerrle posts there. If you post a clear picture of the engraving, she can tell if it is factory done. She also has the ledger books from the factory engravers and can verify if was done in house.
Shotgunworld.com • Winchester Shotguns
Pauline Muerrle posts there. If you post a clear picture of the engraving, she can tell if it is factory done. She also has the ledger books from the factory engravers and can verify if was done in house.
OP
StrawHat
SWCA Member
So, my brother was the one interested in this shotgun and ended up buying it. I will post photos when I get to see it.
Kevin
Kevin
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OP
StrawHat
SWCA Member
Thank you. Much appreciated. I have requested photos with a less cluttered background, when they arrive, I will post them.
Kevin
I'd say it was a project gun done outside the factory.
The base gun looks to have been a plain Field Grade. The plain non-rib bbl.
Plain wood, ect.
With engraving coverage to that extent on the frame from the factory it would have been considered a #5 coverage.
That amt would have included scroll work on the bbl extension and the bbl as well.
The factory bbl markings, choke, address would have been purposely been placed further forward for the engraving to be done.
The factory proofmark, being punched after everything had been done including the engraving AND the factory bluing would show as being punched through the bluing.
The bbl proof on these usually ends up way forward of the frame where they are normally on an unengraved gun. The guns with the bbl engraving like the #5 coverage, the proof was punched just forward of the scroll work.
If the frame scroll work was so complete that no blank space was left on top or the side near the front of the frame,,the proof mark was punched right into the engraving.
The Bolt and Carrier on those would have been factory 'jeweled'.
I suspect the small case script letters on the trigger guard (gt ?) within the scroll may be the engravers initials.
They may however be the customer/owner of the gun at the time.
The base gun looks to have been a plain Field Grade. The plain non-rib bbl.
Plain wood, ect.
With engraving coverage to that extent on the frame from the factory it would have been considered a #5 coverage.
That amt would have included scroll work on the bbl extension and the bbl as well.
The factory bbl markings, choke, address would have been purposely been placed further forward for the engraving to be done.
The factory proofmark, being punched after everything had been done including the engraving AND the factory bluing would show as being punched through the bluing.
The bbl proof on these usually ends up way forward of the frame where they are normally on an unengraved gun. The guns with the bbl engraving like the #5 coverage, the proof was punched just forward of the scroll work.
If the frame scroll work was so complete that no blank space was left on top or the side near the front of the frame,,the proof mark was punched right into the engraving.
The Bolt and Carrier on those would have been factory 'jeweled'.
I suspect the small case script letters on the trigger guard (gt ?) within the scroll may be the engravers initials.
They may however be the customer/owner of the gun at the time.
