Winchester 1897 Trench Gun

The problem with shotguns in WW1 was because the paper shells would swell in the awful wet conditions of trenches. Pre-plastic back then.
 
I believe the brass shotgun shells were first used in WWI to avoid problems with the paper shells.
 
Oh, man...... in 1981 I traded a guy a 357 Blackhawk for a 97 trenchgun with the 1917 bayonet and original leather sling. Sold it a year later for 300 and thought I'd really cut a fat hog.......��
 
max503 said:
Life would have to be pretty...interesting...if you needed a shotgun with a bayonet. :eek:
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Several things interesting about the trench guns. They were used WW! to clear trench literally. The key was hold the trigger down and pump and fire over and over for 6/8? rounds. Let's just say it cleared the trench and di the job. American knowhow.

"With the Trench Gun gaining in popularity among the Americans, the Germans were dismayed by it. So much so that they began to protest its use in combat, issuing a diplomatic protest against the American use of shotguns, claiming it was prohibited by the law of the war."


"Unsurprisingly the Americans rejected the protest causing the Germans to threaten to punish captured Americans in possession of a shotgun. The Americans decided to come with a retaliation threat but if any of the threads lead to punishment or counter-punishment is not known."
 
DWalt said:
During WWI the US trench guns were very effective against the Germans, to the extent that the Germans threatened to execute any Doughboy they captured with a trench gun in his possession. Allegedly, General Pershing sent a message to the German staff to the effect if that ever happened, he would immediately issue a "Take No Prisoners" order to his troops. And that was the end of that.
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Excellent I missed the post.. Thanks for sharing..
 
I always wanted a M97 riot gun that was ether prison or police Dept. marked, still looking!!....Back in 1978 me and a buddy was at are LGS and he found one and bought it for $150.00..those were the days!...............................M*
 
Mblhopo said:
I always wanted a M97 riot gun that was ether prison or police Dept. marked, still looking!!....Back in 1978 me and a buddy was at are LGS and he found one and bought it for $150.00..those were the days!...............................M*
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Important to remember $150 equates about $800 today. My 870 police purchased two years ago priced at 740!!
 
In the mid 1970's I bought a 1897 Riot Gun at a small gun shop in Havelock, N.C. I paid $150 IIRC. Kept it for a while and used it as trade material for a handgun (something I would shoot). It was marked N.C. Prisons. Knowing what I know now, I should have kept it.
 
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Brass shells have been in use for a very long time. Back in the early days of cartridge guns, almost of necessity hunters had to load their own shells using brass cases. You couldn't go to the store and buy any gauge, shot size, and load of shotshell you wanted. Many hunters had maybe a dozen brass cases that they would load with whatever shot size and weight they needed before going out hunting. It wasn't until around the turn of the century that factory-loaded shotshells became widely available, but later it got ridiculous - the ammunition companies were offering hundreds of different shotshell load combinations, and continued to do so until around WWII when most of the companies cut way back on their offerings. Something else which was fairly common in the early years was local custom shotshell loaders. Many cities had custom loading shops who would buy empty shells from Winchester, UMC, etc. and load them to meet specific local demand for the types of loads typically desired by hunters for whatever game was common to the area.

The US started WWI using paper cased 00 Buck shotshells, but that didn't work out so well in muddy trench warfare, so later on brass case shells were used. I believe brass case shells were also used in combat zones by the US military during WWII. Plastic cased shells came along in the early 1960s and they eliminated the military case swelling problem in time for Vietnam.

Before plastic shells appeared, duck hunters also had problems with swollen paper shells. Remington, and possibly others, offered a line of laquered paper shells to duck and goose hunters which were fairly waterproof and swelling-proof. Remington's were called "Arrow" and are instantly recognizable because they are so shiny.
 
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DWalt said:
Brass shells have been in use for a very long time. Back in the early days of cartridge guns, almost of necessity hunters had to load their own shells using brass cases. You couldn't go to the store and buy any gauge, shot size, and load of shotshell you wanted. Many hunters had maybe a dozen brass cases that they would load with whatever shot size and weight they needed before going out hunting. It wasn't until around the turn of the century that factory-loaded shotshells became widely available, but later it got ridiculous - the ammunition companies were offering hundreds of different shotshell load combinations, and continued to do so until around WWII when most of the companies cut way back on their offerings. Something else which was fairly common in the early years was local custom shotshell loaders. Many cities had custom loading shops who would buy empty shells from Winchester, UMC, etc. and load them to meet specific local demand for the types of loads typically desired by hunters for whatever game was common to the area.

The US started WWI using paper cased 00 Buck shotshells, but that didn't work out so well in muddy trench warfare, so later on brass case shells were used. I believe brass case shells were also used in combat zones by the US military during WWII. Plastic cased shells came along in the early 1960s and they eliminated the military case swelling problem in time for Vietnam.

Before plastic shells appeared, duck hunters also had problems with swollen paper shells. Remington, and possibly others, offered a line of laquered paper shells to duck and goose hunters which were fairly waterproof and swelling-proof. Remington's were called "Arrow" and are instantly recognizable because they are so shiny.
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Saw some brass cased 12 ga. shells in Viet Nam. May have been leftover from WW II or Korea, but they were there. Not as many as plastic cased though.
 
I don't think there was a special issue of brass shotgun shells in WW 1 because we weren't over there all that long and shotguns weren't all that much in use. Lothais on the video Primer on Weapons of WW 1 brought out the difficulty of paper shells and so far as I know never mentioned brass.

I was in VN in 68-69 and can't remember seeing brass shells ever. I had a Stevens pump (I think it was) that was sawed off fore and aft as a last ditch weapon along with my M 16 but never used it and can't remember if the shells were paper or plastic but never swelled so I assume plastic.
 
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