The Remington 700 .308 Police model with a heavy barrel seems to be a common item for a Police sniper rifle.

What are considered to be comparable alternatives ?

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I shot many thousands of rounds over the course (ntl mtch crs HP rifle) thru a 1960 M70 Target 30-06 with Redfield International rear and Thompson bubble front sight. Rapid fire was never so fun until some one loaned me a M1a and I got my first distinguished points. Ruined my whole day. The pre 64 M70 is so far superior to the Rem 700 because you don't have to jump the paperclip extractor over the cartridge rim on forward stroke. Just a little thumb pressure is all it takes. Also the plunger ejector spring causes more resistance on rear stroke on the 700.

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Howa 1500 heavy barrel.

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FN Special Police


Or


Savage 10 Police


+1 on the Win model 70

In 2008 or 09 I bought a Savage 10BAS (now discontinued) in 308 Win. After mounting and zeroing the scope, I put 20 consecutive shots in the same hole! (20 shot 100 yard group smaller than a dime!) That rifle as $1500 OTD, about a year and a half later I bought the Savage 110 BA in 338 Lapua Mag. for $1700 OTD. That rifle shoots .25MOA.

I sold all my Rem 700 sniper rifles because they can't compete with a Savage out of the box!

Savage offers a current 10BA & 110 BA, that are less money, or put together an order for the old model. For Money, they will make whatever you are willing to pay for!

Ivan

Unlikely that you are actually going to be shooting at human targets at a half mile so any .308 sporter with a better action than the 700. First choice in a short action .308 would be the unbeatable Ruger 77MKII. There are other good inexpensive rifles like the Howa with one piece forged receivers and bolts. Any good .308 hunting weight rifle will be more accurate than you are.

Sako 75 Hunter now discontinued in 30-06 most accurate 30-06 I's ever have, shoots Lake City M72 30-06 match into little groups. Frank

I'm not a sniper advocate, but I do like to shoot accurate heavy barrel .308s, mostly with cast bullets. A Remington 700 VS, appears to be about the same gun as the Police model but with a 26" barrel. Remington later came out with this rifle using a long-action and called it the Sendero.

Ruger made many 77Vs in .308, a 24" heavy-barreled version of their regular 77 bolt-action. I've been shooting the 700 VS and 77V in .308 for at least thirty years. Both are straight-out-of-the-box very accurate with jacketed or cast bullets.

I think Winchester made a comparable version of their Model 70, but it may no longer be in production either. Another Remington heavy-barreled .308 that was in production just a short time before Remington went under was the Mil-Spec (not an advocate of that term but that's what Remington called it) 5R stainless steel. It was available in at least a couple of barrel lengths and some searching might locate one. I've shot one of these extensively for several years and it's quite accurate with jacketed bullet loads.

FN TSR XP Tactical Sport Rifle Fluted 308 Win.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

The fact is: The accuracy life of a 308 Barrel on a 700 is 3 to 4 thousand rounds! Then any competent armorer/gunsmith can replace the barrel! Most long-range shooters I know start thinking replacement around 2500 rounds. One friend uses and older Savage with 8,000 rounds of slower target ammo.

Improper cleaning practices kill more rifle barrels than bullets ever did!

Columbus, Ohio SWAT used 700 BDL sporting rifles for decades in 30-06, After that they went with Styre SSG clip fed bolt action in 308. Did not increase proficiency at all!

Lothar Walther semi-auto sniper rifles are unbelievably accurate! The people that use them replace barrels at 500-600 rounds, mostly because they can! (OPM-Other People's Money!)

Ivan

I know of at least two sheriff's offices that use Springfield M1A's.

Outside of Hollywood, I'd be interested to know how many LE sniper shots have been taken beyond 100 yards, I'd bet very, very few. Seems I've read the recorded average is below 60 yards . . . I may need to look that up though.

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When I was on the job in the PRNJ the state required qualification course for scoped rifles was 100 yards.

A quarter-minute rifle for a police marksman has ALWAYS seemed like an outlandish case of OPM, to me, except in the rare case where a standard rifle just happens to do that. If it can be obtained economically, that’s nice. Otherwise, just another abuse of the poor taxpayer.

Remington right now is producing the 700 SPS-V in .308. I just looked at one. I can’t imagine such a weapon is not perfectly adequate at the typical LE ranges, but I am sure there are other reasonable choices. Just my grumpy-taxpayer opinion for the day!

The NYPD Stake Out Unit of 40 men(1968-1972) was part of the Emergency Service Unit/Division/District and when there was not enough approved stakeout locations we went to an ESU Truck for the tour.
In the beginning there were 1919 Thompsons,30-30 M94 Saddle Ring Carbines and Remington 700 in .223.
The Thompsons were replaced by the S&W M76 9mm,the 30-30s disappeared but the Rem 700 remained.
In the city long shots would be few.
The Ithica M37 12ga was the workhorse.
I retired in the mid 80s.

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IMO you can't beat a Savage 110 series rifle.

Not picking on you or your comment but I must say:

If the shot that has to be taken is 1/4 inch off the side of an innocent's head, I don't want my LE using a rifle that is more than a 1/8 inch off. If it costs more than an off the shelf rifle, so be it, I'll pay the extra money. Twice I've spoken with LE snipers who have stated they had at best 1/8 inch of free play. Lucky for the a******* on the other end, no shots were required.

What's "OPM"?

There is nothing wrong with a Remington 700.

We used the M24 (Model 700 variant with 10X Leopold) after it replaced the M21 (NM M14 with 3X9 Redfield) in the late 80s. Accuracy with M118 Special Ball ammo was about 3/4 MOA with good lots and accuracy could be 1/2 MOA with the M852 Match round.

I also got to shoot some foreign sniper rifles over the years when overseas and I found the FN rifle a pretty good platform. The CZ was also pretty good and all were easily 3/4 MOA rifles when using match grade ammo. I think that my favorite rifle was the SR 25 (AR10 derivative) that we had access to (from the Bluegrass SOF Arsenal) in the early 90s.

If I was selecting one today, I'd go with something made on the AR 10 design with a floating barrel and the ability to use night sights on it as well as the day optics.

During a sniper train up here is the States once, we had several LE snipers with us for a week of the training. They used the Remington 700 in 308 but were limited to shots within 100 yards by department policy. At the end of the week, we had them shooting back to 600 yards and they were pretty pleased with the performance of their rifles and optics. LE snipers don't really shoot past a block in the city, I guess. In the military, a sniper would be tactically challenged to be that close.

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In this case, it might be "Other People's Money".

Thank you for the explanation. Looking at the context it was used in, your definition fits.

Some have mentioned the semi-automatic M14 facsimiles here. I've never had one and am not familiar with them, but I suspect they are quite accurate for what they are.

I'm reasonably familiar with Remington 700 heavy barrel .308s and would guess these will easily outshoot the M14 facsimiles. It seems the only advantage of the semi-auto would be a slightly faster rate of fire. For those with the experience to comment, am I right or wrong in my assessment of these very different .308s?

The first person that used it in this post defined it as other people's money. A.K.A. Tax dollars.

I recall a study that looked at typical shooting distances for LE snipers and it was a pretty short distance. I can't recall where I saw it. However, there are outliers, mostly in rural LE, that have involved distance more like 400 yards. The value of the tight and consistent performance is probably higher to a hostage. If I am ever held hostage, I expect LE to talk just long enough to get a fatal shot on the bad guy. Anything else will put me at risk that is utterly preventable, and I will likely be very unhappy.

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To a former Fed lawyer it means Office of Personnel Management.

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I will take a Savage any day over recent production 700s. My Ridge Warrior I. 6.5 Creed has shown very promising initial accuracy. My son has it right now and is mounting a thermal scope to it. I am also liking my Bergara in . 308 very much. Currently wears a 2.5-15x Athlon scope.

A few thoughts on the subject.

1) Year after year the average range for police sniper shots is about 75 yards. The longest single shot in any given year that I can recall was 300 yards, and that was almost certainly taken in a rural setting.

The challenge for a police sniper is to hit a target about 2” square on the side or front of the targets head in order to get immediate incapacitation. It also often has to be done through plate glass and on command.

2) Military snipers back in the day when the M40 and M24 shooting M118 were the norm, normally planned on a minimum engagement range of 500 yards and planned on a maximum range of 800 yards, although they could push M118 and in particular M118LR a bit further.

The challenge for a military sniper is getting a first shot hit, perhaps on 2-3 targets in some circumstances, from far enough away to avoid detection so that they can displace and withdraw or set up in another position. Shooting from too close a distance or firing too many rounds increases the potential for counter fire from snipers, heavy machine guns, mortars or artillery.

3) As I recall the accuracy standard for a sniper, rifle, and ammo combination for both services was 1 MOA. The rifles themselves, after being tweaked by military armorers and with hand picked lots of ammunition were usually 1/2 MOA accurate.

Barrel accuracy life with M852 is around 10,000 rounds. With M118 it’s around 8,000 rounds. That’s because the .308 isn’t a barrel burner, especially in the fairly light M852 load, and because they are not generally subjected to sustained rapid rates of fire. If you are doing mag dumps with an M14/M1A, G3, FN FAL, or AR-10 you won’t get that kind of barrel life.

4) Accuracy guarantees.

When I lived in western SD, HS Precision would use our club range when their indoor range was down for maintenance as our range was in a canyon blocking wind on three sides. They do accuracy testing and create test targets on their sniper rifles as they had a “half MOA” accuracy guarantee.

“Half MOA” accuracy in that context meant a 3 shot group at or under 1/2” at 100 yards off a front and rear rest. The shooter would set up how every many targets he needed for the number of rifles he had and shoot each rifle in sequence at its assigned target. Sometimes, sometimes even “often”, it would be a one and done thing with the target getting boxed with the rifle and put back in the van. However, sometimes a rifle might need two or three attempts to achieve a 3 shot 1/2 MOA test target.

A few rifles might be unsuccessful and would get taken apart inspected, reassembled, etc with the shooter playing with the torque of the action screws to see if he could get it to shoot. If not it went back to HS precision for some more attention.

Now and then there would also be a rifle that had been sent back by an unhappy customer, either a private citizen or a law enforcement agency. They would also be test fired and if the would not group in 2-3 attempts would be tweaked and if not successful tagged for more attention.

Now…I don’t consider 3 shots at 100 yards in a 1/2” group to qualify a rifle as a 1/2 MOA rifle. Show me three consecutive 5 shot 1/2” groups at 100 yards and you’ll start to convince me. Do it three times in a row, and I’m on board.

In other words that kind of 3 shot group accuracy guarantee is worthless.

On the other hand, I don’t think I ever saw an HS precision rifle that wasn’t a solid 1 MOA rifle, and for most purposes that’s enough as military, law enforcement or civilian, it’s not going to be the limiting factor in real world shooting under real world conditions.

On the plus side, they shot all their accuracy tests with federal Gold Medal Match ammo, so it wasn’t custom loaded for the rifle.

Also, you have to consider that a returned rifle was still a rare event so at least 95% of their customers were either;
- satisfied with the accuracy;
- could not outshoot the rifle anyway; or
- had their own armorers who tweaked them if the wanted more accuracy.


5) A National Match grade M1A will normally shoot 3/4 MOA with a good lot of M852 or one of the newer lots of M118LR using the 175 gr SMK and the FGMM case. It’s not a bad choice for a sniper rifle for either police use, or for military designated marksman or even sniper use out to about 800m.

Service grade M1As are about 3 MOA rifles with M80 ball and slightly better with 168 gr or 175 gr ammo - maybe 2 MOA.

6) There are lots of alternatives for bolt action rifles.

I bought a Remington 700 Tactical several years ago as I could get one for around $500 at the time. I had low expectations and figured it would be a project gun.

The Hogue over molded stock on it was their pillar bedded version and it was way too bendy in the forearm for precision shooting so it got a B&C Medalist stock with a bedding block and a Timney trigger to replace the mediocre X Mark trigger.

However, much to my surprise that’s all it really needed. It wasn’t a 1/4 MOA tack driver but it was a solid 3/4 MOA 5 shot group rifle and it would put 10 shots fired at a steady pace into a 1” circle at 100 yards. Best of all the cold bore shot went to the same point of aim. I’ll take that kind of stability and consistency over 1/4 MOA accuracy any day.

It was also chambered and throated for magazine length cartridges with shorter bullets in the 168-175 gr range, so there wasn’t an excessive jump to the lands with magazine fed rounds and it does really well with the 168 gr SMK loads I use for 750 yards or less shots.

I paid about $500 for the rifle, another $350 for the stock and $115 for the trigger, so in total I had $965 in the gun. That was a better deal than Remington’s higher end rifles that started around $1100, particularly as it was configured the way I wanted it.



My go to hunting rifle has been a Ruger M77 MK II VT. I disliked the laminated wood target stock that came on it. It was stable and accurate, but it was heavy and I wanted a rifle for field use. At the time, stock options for it were limited. So I put an inexpensive and overly flexible Ram Line stock on it. They hogged it out and used a filled bedding compound to stiffen the area around the action and installed an aluminum bar in the fore end to stiffen the fore end for shooting off a bipod or with a sling.

It shot just as well in that light weight stock as it did in the original and was a solid 3/4 MOA rifle with 168 gr SMK as well as with 165 gr game kings loaded to the same velocity that had the same trajectory out to 600 yards.

Below are three stocks to demonstrate some differences. The stock at the bottom is a Hogue Pillar bedded stock, like you’d find on a low end Remington tactical rifle. It’s just not stiff enough for serious use with a bipod or sling.

In the middle is the above mentioned and even bendier Ram Line stock with additional reinforcement to correct the problem.

The stock at the top is one of slightly more expensive Hogue stocks that uses a bedding block. It’s a little heavy but is a good stock for the money. I prefer B&C or McMillan bedding blocked stocks, but options are a bit more limited for the Ruger 77 than they are for the Remington 700.



The advantage of the M77 MK II is it has a Mauser style fully controlled feed action that is also smoother than the Rem 700 action. The counter argument is that the essentially tubular Remington 700 action is stiffer. It’s a nice theory and it’s no doubt true with solid bottom single shot target rifle. But once you cut the hole for the magazine, there isn’t as much difference as you’d think and not enough to notice.

Similarly, short actions are valued as they are also stiffer, but quite frankly they’ve gone too short with the .308 to the point that loading and / or ejecting a loaded round can be problematic, and magazine lengths are restrictive.

In any case with the Hogue bedding block stock, I’ll keep shooting the Ruger for another couple decades. The 26” medium heavy barrel profile is ideal for accuracy and stability without being excessively heavy and the extra 6” barrel length compared to the 20” Remington gives it an extra 150 fps, which puts the .308 in the .30-06 class.




I also have a Bergara B14 BMP. I wanted to try a chassis rifle and I wanted a muzzle brake so the 20” threaded barrel was an acceptable compromise. I have one of the older ones back when they used the Savage barrel nut, so barrel changes are easy (and with the chassis stock barrel profile isn’t an issue.

It’s on the heavy side, and it is long throated so it likes long heavy bullets seated past magazine length. If you want to use shorter bullets like the 168 gr or 175 gr SMK seated to magazine length. it’s not ideal as their secant ogives are not all that jump tolerant. Consequently I shoot 175 gr RDFs in it as the hybrid ogive manages the jump to the lands as well as a tangent ogive and it gives me solid 1/2 MOA accuracy with 5 shot groups in the .4” range.




Remington, Ruger, Winchester, Savage, Howa, HS Precision, Bergara and CZ all make rifles that are capable of consistent 5 shot 1 MOA or sub MOA accuracy, so it really comes down to what you want, how much you want to spend and what you want the rifle to do.

Savage Model10 TR. Police market offering.
Jim

After thinking about how little it would get shot by me, I decided to put off getting a .308. If I were to get such a rifle, I think I would go for a Savage with a long heavy barrel, a heavy stock and a good recoil pad.

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A LGS finally got in a new Savage Impulse. That action is really, really neat. The reviews all seem to show that accuracy is a given.

My last 700 was an SPS I built about 12 years ago. I wasn't really impressed, as it never shot better than ~1 MOA, even with a lot of handloading experimentation.



I recently got back into precision rifles (in a 6.5CM), and from my research it didn't look like Remington's reputation had improved. There are a lot of alternatives out there now. Savage and Howa are decent budget options. I ended up going with a Bergara Premium barreled action (R700 'clone'), and an aftermarket stock. I don't have many rounds through it yet, but so far, it's impressed me, shooting 1/2 MOA with factory ammo when I do my part. Starting with a barreled action allowed me to pick and choose the components I wanted.



As far as LE use, any Remingtons still in use at our local agencies are strictly back-up rifles at this point. AI, and other 'semi-custom' makers have mostly taken over the LE sniper market. Our guys recently got some Nemo AR pattern .308s, which they really like so far. For most deployments, they have enough accuracy, and have a lot of advantages over the bolt guns. They still have the bolt guns if they need the longer range capability.

I can have all the tactical world class space guns you want. I’ve got a Pre 64 Win 70FW that will drive roofing nails at 100yds, literally. I got it new and it has managed to stay in keepers all those years. I stated out with a Weaver K10 because I was dumb kid and that was my first scope. It was a groundhog buster with 10x. I smartened up and put a K6 on it which made a perfect off hand rig. When Springfield came out with M1a they use to provide a loading manual of match loadings. A buddy of mine bought one and we loaded the suggested 130gr Speer HP and the MIa loved it. Buddy bought 10 boxes of bullets and match brass. Then traded M1a and I got the
bullets and brass. I’ve been shooting that ever since. I don’t know if I just got a cherry or the short barrel on the 70FW is less affected than standard barrel. I’ve owned several Win 70 pre 64 and all shot good but the 308 FW
is best. I did have two .264s and couldn’t get them to shoot worth a hoot.

A Tikka T3 CTR is my most accurate rifle. It’s good out to 600 yards ( I can’t hit anything past that due to my limitations)!

CZ makes good solid, dependable rifles. Good prices.

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I held one at lgs, it was a bear to operate the action. I won't be buying one.

for hunting I use a Savage 16FHVSS in 308... I am the second owner.. original owner was a State Patrol sniper that was going to use it to replace his Remington 700... it was more than accurate enough.. but the safety was different enough that after decades of Remington trigger time he just wasn't wanting to change the manual of arms at that point... so I got a helluva deal on a spectacular rifle..
24 inch stainless steel heavy fluted barrel... was offered thru Cabelas as an exclusive... hard to find any information on at all.. I also will second the M1A NM as capable of 1 to 3/4 MOA... way better than I am to be honest

Back when Winchester announced they were closing the plant I purchased 2 rifles, a model 94 that had belonged to a mounted police unit and a new model 70 Stealth in .308 Win.

The Stealth is an amazing rifle and I won't part with it. I bought it with the intent of using it for long distance shooting as it is very accurate. Unfortunately I went in a different direction shooting pistols and shotguns. The Stealth currently has 60 rounds though it and is the best shooting rifle I've owned. I keep telling myself that I'm going to start shooting it this spring.

The photo doesn't do the rifle justice but I can't find a good picture of it tonight.

Amazing how many people seem to forget, or simply don’t know, that the heart of a bolt action IS the action. They may all look more or less alike to the naive but there are major differences between them and the Savage just isn’t one of the good ones.

Oh, I love my standard bolt Savages. Just that pull action stinks. You have to operate it like you really mean it. Not smooth at all and noisy.

Rosewood

I've heard about Model 70's being used as sniper rifles but always thought that they never we given their due. One thing I thing that people overlook is the Model 70's massive flat bottom and all that surface area for bedding.Plus it has 4 screws 3 of which help bedding the rifle. I've a 1966 Model 70 with the old style "Marksman" style stock It's in 30-06 I've chronohraphed the 165 Nosler Ballistic tip at 2800 feet per second. McCarbo makws a trigger spring replacement for the original M70 trigger spring. Takes about 20 minutes to remove the old spring, and install the new spring. Cost is only $22. No other changes to any of the existing trigger parts is needed. And with the exception of possible barrel replacement and a cheek rest device?? questionable at this time. And keep it in it's present caliber 30-06. It does come with a factory barrel,24" long. Frank

Not to drift too far of the original topic but Winchester did market a "Police Sniper Rifle" in .308 and .30-06 in the early 1970s. It was cataloged as a model 7050A I believe. I bought this in 1973 at the local Woolworths. The barrel and receiver had a matt blued finish and the plain walnut stock had no gloss like a plain oil finish. It has a period Weaver 3-9 Variable scope. Most of the rounds I shot out of this were testing target loads for my M1A.

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Why is that?

Not accurate? Not durable? Unreliable?

What makes it not "one of the good ones"?

The cheaply pieced together method of manufacture rather than solid steel one piece forging or investment casting.

Not sure exactly what you’re asking, but a lighter alternative to the 700P would be the LTR version of the same rifle that, while still technically a 700P, has a 20” fluted barrel to save weight, an H-S Precision stock from the factory with dual sling studs on the front to accommodate a bipod, a threaded muzzle and a 40x trigger on the later versions, and even 8-40 screw holes and 5R rifling on a few rifles.
It makes an ideal lightweight tactical rifle that could also serve as a hunting rifle in a pinch and they generally are very accurate right out of the box, though I’m sure there’s exceptions.

And, yes, 10 years later, I make my first post.

All of the above and also Bergara, they're going the direction I wish Remington would have gone
They make some very nice rifles and very accurate with many price point options. Comparable if not superior to Remington's Police Rifle

So it's not accuracy, durability or reliability, it's the manufacturing process that you don't like.

Many would say your average Taurus meets those three standards... but here we are on a S&W forum.

The difference should be obvious.

Design, design, design. Cheaply made of many small parts pieced together or simple sturdy real steel. If you’re buying with money in your pocket why not buy real quality to begin with? When you decide to sell your rifle sometime in the future see which one appreciates in value and which one you have to practically give away to get rid of.

I’ve worn out Savage rifles - the small parts, not the action, but I shoot a lot. Savage rifles hold up ok for shooters who shoot a box or two of ammo per year, and they hold up even better for that guy who fires a few rounds to confirm his zero before hunting season and then fires a few more during hunting season.

Is a Savage a great choice for a guy that shoots 2000 plus rounds a year? Not so much.

A good Taurus can be a very good firearm, the trick is getting a good one as quality is all over the map.

Rifle wise, Remington has had the same problem for about the last 20 years. As noted above I bought my 700 SPS with low expectations more as a project gun. It was along the lines of why people buy Ruger 10/22s, which are also not nearly the rifles they were 40 years ago - 50 years ago when they were actually medium-high end .22 LRs rather than low end.

I got lucky in that the barrel, while not a 1/4 MOA tack driver was exceptionally stable and able to deliver both an on point of aim cold bore shot and produce 10 shot 1 MOA groups firing 2-3 rounds per minute. That left me just having to replace the stock and the trigger.

———

As for Smith and Wesson….let’s just say I like the old ones a lot more than the new ones.