Deep dive article in the Washington Post about Sig P320 AD's, in which those reported on claimed they never touched the trigger.:
"More than 80 people, including police officers, allege they were shot by their SIG Sauer P320 pistols. Some have lost work, live in pain after serious injuries.
The injured included both casual and expert firearm owners whose guns fired in their homes and offices and in busy public places like casinos and parking lots. In two cases, the guns went off on school grounds.
Interviews with more than a dozen victims, video recordings, and a review of thousands of pages of court documents and internal police records reveal a pattern of discharges that were alleged to have occurred during routine movements. These have included the holstering or unholstering of the P320, climbing out of vehicles and walking down stairs. In several cases, records and videos show, the gun fired when a victim’s hand was nowhere near it.

Not the kind of free advertising they were hoping for, I'm sure.
Is this with all different models of the 320? Meaning the FCU? There's about 50 different models it seems.

No reports on the P365? Is that a similar set-up?

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Because of the metric system?

Old news, I recall a fix was implemented.

Not a criticism of the OP, but I wonder what the motivation of one of the most notorious anti-gun newspapers in the country might be to publish an article on this topic. ?

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

This is a WaPo article discussing reports that the P320 is susceptible to accidental/spontaneous — not just negligent — discharge.

While the WaPo is anti-gun, most of the sources within the article seem pretty credible.

...Milwaukee police officers wrote 10 memos to their superiors detailing their worries about the P320’s susceptibility to unintentional discharge, public records obtained from the Milwaukee Police Department show. One memo said the department had seen a “two-and-a-half times increase in accidental discharges” with the P320 compared with the previous five-year period, when the department used Smith & Wesson pistols.


On July 30, 2020, SIG Sauer representatives hosted a conference with the agency in an effort to answer questions directly.


A memo summarizing the meeting, which was attended by four SIG Sauer representatives, including Toner, the P320’s designer, shows that it only increased officers’ alarm.


“When asked if the Sig Sauer P-320 pistol can discharge spontaneously without a trigger manipulation (jostling, being struck, dropped),” Capt. James MacGillis wrote in the summary shortly after the meeting, “the representatives did not answer the question, even when asked twice.

”
SIG Sauer did not respond to this assertion in its written response to questions....

I'm a revolver man, m'self... Link below:

https://wapo.st/400uBzm

I admit I am no engineer, but I take some of this with a grain of salt..

I remember when Audi automobiles would suddenly accelerate on their own - Owners swore up and down it was true, but was proven to be operator error.

Glocks, when they first became popular, used to fire on their own as well, usually when being holstered & unholstered, some times with no human contact at all. Again, human error or a badly designed holster.

I don't know enough about the P320's internals to say it cant happen, but my gut feeling is because of the guns recent widespread use and military issue, it is experiencing the same issues as Glock...

Larry

I read the article. Thank you for posting.
Seems the problems are with the guns that were fixed.

That's a lot of recorded instances of a similar event. 80 is only the number of injuries. OTOH, why is it only some of them, and not all?

The article does beat to death the point that there's no regulation or standard of consumer product safety.

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Because of the metric system?

As to the source of the article, I read across both sides of the aisle, preferring to make up my own mind what is true and what is simply tribal partisanship. Primarily scan the WP for it's in depth reporting on the Ukraine War.
The article reports on multiple incidents from trained LEO's being injured by incidents in which they state the trigger was never touched.
As to the why these AD's are occuring:

"SIG Sauer has faced claims that the P320 malfunctions since at least 2017, when accounts surfaced that the gun could fire when dropped. A video released in August that year by a Texas gun store showed the gun firing consistently when dropped at certain angles. The impact caused the trigger to depress, the video showed.
A day after the video was released, SIG Sauer announced it would modify the pistol’s design and launched a voluntary upgrade program in which customers could return their guns to have redesigned components installed. Reporting by CNN later showed SIG Sauer had been notified twice about instances in which the gun fired when dropped, roughly a year before warning the public of the problem. One of those notices was from the U.S. Army.

The P320 is different from many striker-fired guns in that it is effectively fully cocked at rest. The pull of its trigger does not draw the striker backward any meaningful distance. It simply releases it.
The gun’s primary internal safety, called a safety lock tab, is designed to block the striker from springing forward to detonate a round. With minimal pressure to the trigger, this tab is pushed upward and out of the way of the striker. Some critics of the P320’s design have alleged that the ease with which this safety is disengaged makes the gun more vulnerable to unintentional discharges.

According to an October report from James Tertin, a gunsmith at the Minnesota-based gun manufacturer Magnum Research, this is a highly unusual and “uniquely dangerous” configuration, which is found in only two models of SIG Sauer pistols. (Magnum Research is a subsidiary of the gunmaker Kahr Arms, which also produces pistols sold in the United States.)Tertin opined that the P320’s primary internal safety was too easily disabled. He found that pulling the trigger 0.075 inches — about the width of a nickel — would disengage it, leaving the pistol vulnerable to accidental discharge.
“Given the very minimal trigger movement … required to disengage the internal safeties, a foreign object or pressure against the holster can leave the gun unacceptably vulnerable to a discharge without an intentional trigger pull.”

I was a Sig police armorer years ago before the advent of the 320. I presently own a 365 and P 220. My last issued duty gun was a P228. I really like Sigs. I read this article myself this morning. The AD's keep happening even after the recall. One of my friends is a factory Sig armorer. He will not own a 320 and has advised me to not to either.

An officer in my department had an AD with a Glock 21. Glock did have other reports of AD's. They fixed them and it has not been a problem since.

There are 12 pages of discussion about this problem over on SIGforum, listed as 'Sig P320 Accidental Discharge Problem'. Discussion goes round and round, but there was a consensus that those P320s with manual safeties will not discharge if the safety is engaged. Same goes for P365s. I have two dogs in this fight, since I own a relatively new P320(M17) and a P365XL, both with manual safeties.

So SIG issued a fix for this a long while back but it was simple physics or operator error.

The original triggers themselves did not weigh much, thus if dropped in a specific way, it could go off due to the physics involved. Adding a heavier trigger solved this issue.

Further, a lot of these "discharges" were caused by people "playing" with their firearms in their holsters or while removing the gun from the holster.

One instance I recall reading most of was a female cop whos gun "just went off" in her purse.....turns out she was carrying it loaded, no holster, just floating around in her purse.....yet its the firearms fault.

I would have no issued with a P320 if I had to have/carry/use one....but Im not a polymer/striker fired fan.

Actually, SIG lightened the upgraded triggers. The original triggers were heavier.

I don't blame the poster, but this is all ancient B.S.

Everybody is looking to sue for that "pot o gold at the end of the rainbow";
looking to get rich quick.

I don't like the lady, but even Gwynneth Paltrow was sued by a jerk who ran into her on a bunny ski slope. What a culture we live in!

I have two SIG P320s and a P365. I carry the 320s every day until the hottest weather, nary a problem or hitch.
I do recommend checking your holster before you stick any striker fire gun in it, regardless of make.

I am pretty sure I've linked it before. There is PD surveillance video of two detectives exiting their car. The one in the back seat has files in one hand, and a cuppa-Joe in the other. Takes a couple steps, and BANG. Looks down at his holster in utter disbelief. Sorry, it's not simply an issue of booger-hooks on the bang-switches.

My money is on it's damn near impossible to design a holster with good retention that is safe with a dingus free trigger.

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Release the Kraken

I've never felt comfortable with handguns like the Glock and Sig in which the striker is cocked and ready to fire with any trigger engagement intentional or unintentional. I thought Walther had the best solution with the P99AS anti-stress trigger which allowed you to decock the striker after chambering a round enabling a simulated double-action pull of the trigger for the first shot which would re-cock the stricker and release it with a full trigger pull. Every shot after would be like "single action" with a lighter trigger pull. Even though the pistol had no safety, the ability to de-cock the striker made an accidental discharge much less probable.

What is not mentioned is how police departments purchased new guns but not the appropriate holsters for the new Sigs. There are many reports of poor fitting holsters for their previous models that were “close enough” but put pressure on the trigger when holstered. Add in the typical physical activity of a police officer bouncing around and that makes a bad combination. Sometimes things aren’t quite as black and white as they appear.

There are two different potential issues. One was the drop safety flaw; the pistol was not drop safe. That has been addressed as far as I know. The other is just "going off" such as described above. I have not followed this closely as I really have no interest in the platform.

This was heavily discussed on a forum comprised mostly of serious LE/mil types. While there is a decent chance that some of these are NDs due to handling errors, there is no real question that the design is flawed. I know some of the people reporting the problems personally and they are credible.

I have no idea if the 365 suffers from the same problems, or if the different dimensions preclude that.

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NHI, 10-8.

When I researched the 365 pre-purchase:

"the P365 features an array of internal safeties protecting the gun against unintentional discharges, including a disconnector drop safety and a firing pin block (similar to a Series 80 1911)."

The statement the “design is flawed” means nothing unless the design flaw can be “described” and replicated. All we have is the inanimate object fires itself. Issues of using holsters not designed for the pistol, foreign objects moving the trigger and possible lack of attention of the user have been identified. Also, it doesn’t matter how “super” a user is, people make mistakes.

Yes, I own a Model 17, two 17-320s and two X Carry. No issues, however, I do not carry them every day and I only use he SIG holsters designed for them.

Could it be a design issue - yes. Opinions do not prove design issues.

I have a couple of 320’s that have thumb safety’s like a 1911. And since I shoot 1911’s I always have the safety on when my 320 is in the holster .
Just habit carried over .

Sig is a global arms manufacturer. If it has a problematic handgun, it should be either modifed so it's not, or replaced with a new model, as it doesn't matter if it's the holsters, handling, etc. when a handgun is having a much higher rate of AD's something needs to change.
Gun owners are no different than drivers, in which many are a hazard whether behind the wheel or handling a firearm.

Various odd thoughts prompted by comments......

Without trying to list them, I recall that several brand pistols now have fully cocked strikers as opposed to the Glock style half-cock design.

Dean Speir, then writing as Waldo Lydecker, covered the early Glock problems before that first revamped design of the striker and safety plunger. He reported that the pistols will fire from the normal "half-cocked" striker position. That's not reassuring.

The state police department that adopted the S&W version of the P-99 reported some of those pistols fired when the striker release plunger was pushed. Likely for other reasons as well, that department dropped the P-99 and adopted a different pistol.

Several departments switched from Glocks after seemingly minor production changes had rendered that batch unreliable. (Memphis??) See also Dean Speir on the NYPD Glock 19 malfunctions that bedeviled NYPD and Glock back then.

A recent report had pistols firing when the sharp corner of the breech face/cartridge guide popped primers on loading. Chicago PD issued a warning on that with their Sig 225/226/228 pistols in 1997. Glock had the same problem in 1993.

There's lots that can go wrong even with the simple machines that are pistols.

I own 5 P320's in different configurations and have carried them all. Plus 2 P365's. Never had an issue and have watched all the claims and believed there is more than the claims information to be had. Some have been holster issues, clothing issues and finger issues. Seems to be a theme in AD's.

Is the issue only in 9mm or is it not caliber specific? Have their been reports of the problem with a P320 in .45 ACP?

Would you admit to touching the trigger if you had an AD, or would you blame the gun?

A great question. Also, there are quite a few variations of the 320. Is it one in specific, or all of them?

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Because of the metric system?

Not to derail this thread, but, I have to wonder how much due diligence a company like Wilson Combat did before offering SIG-SAUER® P320/P365 CUSTOMIZATION? Also wonder if any of their customized guns have “gone off” without trigger pull?

There was a thread on this problem a few months ago and the question of (un)suitable holsters came up there as well. I was a bit alarmed since Canada, after nearly a dozen years of faffing about, finally settled on the 320 as a replacement for their WWII-era Browning HPs.

I seem to recall that when Ruger introduced the SR9, they tested it by dropping it 15' onto a concrete floor to ensure it couldn't discharge accidentally.

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"I drank WHAT?" (Socrates)

There have been two distinct problems with the P320. The first is the discharge when dropped and the second is the so-called “uncommanded discharge.”

The first was because the P320 would fire if dropped on its rear causing the trigger mechanism to continue rearward by inertia resulting in the weapon firing. Glock and almost every other maker of striker-fired pistols incorporated a tabbed trigger safety to positively prevent such inertia discharge. Rather than add a tabbed trigger safety to prevent rearward movement of the trigger from inertia, SIG Sauer addressed this problem by reducing the weight of the trigger parts so the weapon would not discharge from inertia if the drop occurred from a greater height. Recall that SIG’s initial ads for the P320 pictured an available tabbed trigger safety. Problem number one would likely never had occurred had the tabbed trigger safety been put on all P320s.

The second problem started after the controversy regarding the first problem died down. The second problem was named “uncommanded discharge” because it is alleged that the P320 just “goes off” without anyone touching the trigger. As yet, a cause for the second problem has not been identified. The allegations are worrisome, with many speculating operator error and others blaming the design.

The military experienced the first problem, and their pistols were fixed before the inertia drop problem was widely known on the commercial side.

I have not seen any mention of the military experiencing the uncommanded discharge problem. I wish someone would do a Freedom of Information request.

I also wish SIG Sauer would make its tabbed trigger standard.

I also wish someone other than SIG Sauer would do a test of the post-fix inertial discharge problem 1.

I have no idea how the second problem (uncommanded discharge) can be tested apart from drop testing. Perhaps violent shaking?

Glock does not have a fully cocked striker in its standard configuration, however the striker is fully cocked with the new performance trigger. Almost all of the other striker-fired pistols are fully cocked, unlike Glock, which is only partially cocked. I have not seen reports of these uncommanded discharge claims with any other brand.

I hope it gets sorted out.

Video proof, number two....

Those testimonies seem pretty much incontestible despite Sig Sauer's protestations of a few cases of "unsafe handling." The first one, of the female officer walking to her car when the gun went off... How the heck could that happen if it was holstered and she apparently wasn't touching the holster or the gun?

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Sig Sauer has a very good reputation. I can't see how they could have allowed a seemingly faulty design to get to market.

Maybe the "solution" will be for SS to issue special holsters fitted with a steel deflector strip at the bottom

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"I drank WHAT?" (Socrates)

And from another source, courtesy of VCDL:
Why Did the The Washington Post and The Trace Misrepresent the SIG P320's Safety System in Their Hit Piece? - The Truth About Guns

Glock demands a PULL of the trigger. Without said pull, the cruciform sits atop a physical ledge that will not allow the cruciform to drop out of engagement with the striker. To inadvertently fire a Glock demands the operator first find a way to depress the trigger safety lever, then find a way to draw the trigger back far enough to move the cruciform off the support ledge where it is forced downward by the connector. This system is completely NOT LIKE THE SIG P320!

The P320 trigger is "set" when the slide is cocked. No further rearward movement is demanded as the rotating sear is "set." A very short and light press of the trigger will deactivate the striker safety drum allowing the pistol to fire.

I own both systems in factory trim as well as DIY systems and the only way Glock fires without command authority is - it CAN'T!

The SIG can, but the trigger still must be pulled and held to the rear to fire... a holster can cause this.

The Glock system is NOT in any way similar to the SIG system. A better comparison would be the XD system but even that has a grip safety that blocks the trigger. The SIG system has no grip safety.

Sigs and XDs have a rotating sear design that uses spring power to engage with the striker sear. A hard enough jolt could possibly cause the striker to disengage, but this can NEVER HAPPEN on a Glock because the cruciform lies atop a rail that will not allow it to "bump" from engagement. Even so, the trigger must be held to disengage the striker block, which could happen in the wrong kind of holster with the Sig P320.

I recall many of the same issues when police forces around the country transitioned from revolvers to Glocks.

My department adopted it last year / year before after 3 generations of P226s. I don’t believe they have had any issues, but if I was still there, I would not feel comfortable carrying it.

I watched this video. Look at how much junk that officer is carrying on her right side and how it is moving about and bumping against her. That has to be all over the butt of her gun, and if the holster retention isn't up to it, there's no telling how that gun is moving. Add in the small amount the trigger must be moved for this weapon to fire, and I can see this happening.

Is it the fault of Sig or the company making the holster? Is carrying all that stuff on her strong side "unsafe handling"? Only numerous court cases will tell.

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Release the Kraken

There is evidently a serious problem caused by more than holster issues.

"Amid increasing litigation over an allegedly defective pistol design, gun manufacturer Sig Sauer was hit with claims from another 20 plaintiffs in New Hampshire federal court Monday.
A Saltz Mongeluzzi & Bendesky attorney leading the suit said the plaintiffs were carefully selected to provide an edge in advancing the products liability claims against the defendant.
According to the 145-page complaint, the plaintiffs are “a group of highly trained and experienced firearms users,” all of whom allege the Sig Sauer P320 harmed them.

“Their experience with guns tells you all you need to know about whether this gun has a problem when the most experienced users are having these incidents,” said Robert Zimmerman, a partner at Saltz Mongeluzzi who is based in its Philadelphia office.

The 20 plaintiffs include federal law enforcement agents, police officers, combat veterans and firearms instructors from across the United States.
The complaint characterizes the P320 as “the most dangerous pistol sold in the United States market.” The plaintiffs claim that defects in the gun’s design make it prone to unintentional firing.
Zimmerman said there is an assumption that when a gun goes off, it’s the user’s fault. By curating a group of persons with experience with firearms safety, Zimmerman said, plaintiffs counsel can mitigate that assumption.
According to the complaint, the plaintiffs have identified over 150 incidents of the P320 unintentionally going off. Zimmerman said the plaintiff’s claims are distinct from claims made against gun manufacturers in the past because they allege the pistol lacks an external safety that is present on other similar guns.

Anyone interested in or intrigued by the Sig P320 series handguns should visit Bruce Gray’s FB page and read about his R&D work on the model.

On examination of my new SIG M18, the trigger moves about 1/8", with very little resistance, to disengage the striker block before engaging the sear. Another 1/8" of travel, with significantly more resistance (~6.5 lbs) is required to release the striker. The M18 has a manual safety lever, which locks the trigger, hence the striker block.

The manual safety is an option for other versions of the P320, as is a locking tab on the trigger, similar to that of a Glock pistol.

The partial cocking function of a Glock trigger is trivial, and more marketing hype than reality.

ND's, reported by police agencies, are more likely to occur due to mishandling, and poor design of retention holsters, than to a design defect in the weapon. WAPO is notoriously uncritical of any "facts" which support their narrative.

This one is fresh, and tough to refute....
According to two of the articles, the Chief already ordered 35 GLocks to replace the 320s

what else is in his holster

I'm not convinced the gun is fully in the holster when this starts. Whatever, in the absence of anything else being in the holster, the gun should not go off like that.

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Release the Kraken

Some p320 will contenue to love there p320's Some of us that had P320 will sell or trade them and but a brand an model they trust and go on with there life . I sold my early production hammer drop upgraded not "recalled " P320c 40 after buying a XC model some 7 years later and found it had the famously unsorted chambers on the early X series pistols after sig stated mine was safe and up to factory specs , BS . I was not comfortable just selling or trading it so eventually went to my dealer knowing about the chamber issues for him to show to his sig rep and it was taken away. Some sort of deal was made and I picked up a m&p 4" compact with thumb safety and was optic ready as a replacement that cost nothing .

Had mine upgraded with the recall that was not named a recall. Sold after it was returned.

Have not heard of issues with VSP, who traded the P229 for the P320.

Something is obviously in the holster with the gun. When he bends down that foreign object pulls the trigger. I have watched dozens of similar
videos involving Glocks going back 30 years.
In my personal and unqualified opinion, LEO shouldn't be carrying striker fired guns without a safety anyway. They would be far safer with DA/SA or DAO pistols. That was the trend for a few years until Glock's incredibly successful marketing campaign converted everyone.
P320's don't fire unless you pull the trigger. This is consistent across all of these accounts. This particular video is one of the clearest examples of an ND I have seen so far.

What on earth would somebody poke into a holster with their gun? Not having been in LE I'm clueless. Do you think the foreign object would be admitted to in any inquiry?

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Release the Kraken

What could fit into a gun specific Kydex holster with I am sure a locking retention device? It's not like there's a lot of room in there like in some generic nylon or leather holster. Are we to assume that officer hadn't bent over that entire day? It's not like he holstered it inside his waistband without looking and a piece of t-shirt got trapped in the trigger guard.

It's funny how sometimes people just can't blame the weapon. Sometimes, the culprit IS a defective weapon.

The Glock ND problem was truly negligent handling. I have never heard or seen of an incident there of that was not tied to negligent handling.

Some the incidents with the P320 are likely of the same nature. Some of them clearly are not. I belong to another forum that is comprised mostly of very hard use/serious folks, and the discussion there has not been favorable to Sig. I have and like a 239 (9mm). I ordered a new one from Sig some years back and the dealer rejected it without even telling me because the QC was lacking. This was consistent with multiple reports from credible people - inconsistent quality. I did get the pistol eventually, but had to sell it during a period of under employment, hence the one I have now.

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NHI, 10-8.

Some kind of cord hanging from the officer's uniform would be an easy guess. There are several accounts of officers causing ND's when the pull cord from a jacket is tangled in the trigger guard. Using the wrong holster is another possibility. There is a famous account of a Canadian soldier shooting himself with his P320 because he was using a holster for a P226. Let me turn the question around on you: if you loaded a P320 and set it on a shelf, what would cause it to discharge itself? Are we saying the trigger moves on it's own? Is the sear slipping off the striker? These events should be provable and repeatable. The one constant I see in all these ND's is that the weapon is holstered. Can you squeeze, twist, vibrate a holstered P320 until it fails without touching the trigger? Try it. You will be internet famous if you can make it happen.

From SigSauer:
QUOTE
NEWINGTON, N.H., (July 31, 2023): SIG SAUER has the following statement relative to a reported unintentional discharge from an officer at the Montville, CT Police Department on Monday, July 24, 2023:
“We have seen the news reporting of the incident involving a P320 discharge at the Montville (CT) Police Department. We area confident, as is the case in all instances, that when the factors and evidence are reviewed this will be proven to be an unintentional discharge as a result of inadvertent contact with the trigger, and that the pistol did not fire without a trigger pull.
In reviewing the video footage of this incident currently available, it appears that the involved firearm was not fully seated in its holster and the holster retention hood was not fully closed over the pistol at the time of discharge (images below). This improperly holstered condition would have left the firearm’s trigger exposed and vulnerable to actuation. Even if properly holstered, the features of the involved holster allow for foreign object intrusion and interaction with the trigger, as has been seen in other incidents.
We regret that the involved agency jumped to conclusions regarding the cause of this discharge without first carefully examining the footage of the incident and providing SIG SAUER with an opportunity to assist in the examination of the involved firearm.



The P320 model firearm is used effectively and safely every day, by both civilians and armed professionals. Despite years of litigation and extensive discovery, no one has ever been able to replicate a condition under which the P320 could discharge without a trigger pull, and experts who have attempted to assert such a claim have been rep
[/QUOTE]

Seems I was right. Gun not properly in holster.

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Release the Kraken