9 mm single action pistols okay with +P+?

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Naphtali

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My title is inaccurately short. While I'm pretty sure a M1911 nine mm will handle +P+ reliably as the most durable of the striker nines, I'm interested in an exposed hammer single action nine with a grip length of a Browning Hi-Power. Again, I do not refer to girth or width, but about a magazine well that is designed for 9 x 19 mm cartridge length.

So no stipulations other than shorter magazine well and magazine, single action, and being capable of heavy use of +P+. Has something of this nature been in production in this century?
***
A few adjunctive questions.
- What are normal OEM ammunition pressures for standard nine, +P nine, and +P+ nine?

- What is expected ballistic improvement between standard nine and ?

- What is expected ballistic improvement between +P nine and +P+ nine?

- Where on the pressure-performance graph are the military surplus ammunitions that occasionally are available?
 
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According to SAAMI normal 9x19 is 35,000 psi. 9x19 +P is 38,500 psi. There are no specs for +P+, so depending on maker I would say it would range from 35,000 to 40,000 psi. Much of +P+ moniker is marketing, making people think it's better... Basically +P+ is at the makers discretion of pressure, since anything above SAAMI spec is +P.

You can find info here.

SAAMI Standards - SAAMI

What you are asking is a catch-all. You need to understand the this is dependent upon manufacturer of the ammo, each one will perform differently. +P is nothing more than a label to indicate that the ammo will exceed normal specs - not an indication of ballistic superiority or performance.
 
There is no established pressure for 9 mm +P+. The ammo was loaded under government contracts only after a lengthy hold harmless agreement was signed. Said government entity admitted use of the ammunition would result in accelerated wear and posed a risk of severe injury and/or death if the firearm failed. What +P+ ammo you see on the open market probably didn't meet spec in some manner. Given the expanding bullet design developments in the last 20 years or so, it just ain't worth it.

If you look at the ammo catalogs of the various ammo makers, you can see the difference in performance between standard and +P ammo. You can generally figure that in a 4 inch barrel, +P is good for about 80- 100 f/s more than standard loads, somewhat depending upon bullet weight. I look at it as the +P ammo will generally deliver at least what the catalogs claim for standard pressure ammo when fired in a real gun.

Winchester claims 1220 f/s with a 124 gr bullet on their NATO spec ammo. But, NATO measures velocity from a barrel about 7 7/8 inch long. You also have to realize that the NATO STANAG 4090 document that provides all the NATO 9 mm specifications uses a different method of pressure measurement than SAAMI.

Having said all that, NATO spec is pretty close to SAAMI +P and both are probably close to the CIP specification used in a big chunk of the world.
 
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Wow, a plethora of questions some don't understand? Maybe is just me? Sometime in this century? What does magwell have to do with firing one in chamber...feeding? Width? Ok in 1911 9mm style? Handle with P+P pressures? Many more but leave at that. Don't mean to come across as smart-butt but chamber a P+P in an 9mm existing double stack single action pistol...chamber & fire. Would that give you answers or am i completely off track. Just a thought comes to mind...tried google?

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DixieRanger said:
Wow, a plethora of questions some don't understand? Maybe is just me? Sometime in this century? What does magwell have to do with firing one in chamber...feeding? Width? Ok in 1911 9mm style? Handle with P+P pressures? Many more but leave at that. Don't mean to come across as smart-butt but chamber a P+P in an 9mm existing double stack single action pistol...chamber & fire. Would that give you answers or am i completely off track. Just a thought comes to mind...tried google?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

You might want to work on your own grammar skills before you appoint yourself the resident hall monitor.
 
Ouch! Was working on post when pressure info given. Just didn't understand some questions not meant as disparaging 'hall moniter' sir...so, do have spell check but print like sounds to me. Didn't know had grammer teacher on forum but thanks. By tha way, did graduate eighth grade...got the certifikut.

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Does anyone really see the value of the +P or +P+? Given that a handgun is mostly a short range deal where is the true need? If one really needs to hot rod their gun then be safe and go up to the next bigger one. Can't wait for the makers to come out with a 500 magnum +P.
 
Illinois State Police carried Win 9mm+p+ in their S&W M 59's in the 80's.

I was able to get a few rounds and shot them out of my BHP, Really hot, but really accurate.
 
I'd consult my owners manual and/or the manufacturer.
But like some others, I also don't see the "need" for +P+ but to each their own.
 
My brother & I both ran a couple boxes Hirtenberger L7a1thru the Beretta 92sf, back when it was more available. It was a little snappier. Wouldn't make a habit of it.

Who would recommend non saami spec'd ammo from their guns? I don't think I understand either.
 
Not to be confused with another Hirtinberger 9mm +P+ 100gr soft point LE ammo., allegedly developed for use in Austrian border police Glock 9mm pistols. Believe there was a recent thread re ammo for 9mm carbines, this stuff might fit the bill.
 
Abbynormal said:
Illinois State Police carried Win 9mm+p+ in their S&W M 59's in the 80's.
I was able to get a few rounds and shot them out of my BHP, Really hot, but really accurate.
Click to expand...
Just a minor correction.
The ISP never issued or carried the 59.
The issued S&Ws were Mod 39/39-2 1967 to 1981.
Mod 439/469 from 1981 to about 1989.
Model 5904/6904 until 1999.
The Federal BPLE was issued starting about 1982-83 in the 439/469.
The W-W +P+ was issued about 1986-87 until 1999.
 
Okay. +P+ is unrealistic and unnecessary.

At least on paper, standard and +P nines appear to be much like a subset of 38 Special +P in revolvers with at least three-inch barrels. . . . Yeah, I'll probably have the gauntlet to run for this heresy. But that's what paper ballistics show.

One of my revelations so far from the thread is that SA/DAs are SAs if I cock the hammer and either lower hammer myself or use decocker. The universe of nines whose size fits my wants becomes vastly larger.
***
I omitted from my original post that I was not particularly interested in wearing the SA nine "cocked-and-locked".
 
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I've said it before and I'll say it as many times as necessary; if Standard Pressure ammo isn't hot enough, then neither are overpressure loads.

Upgrade to a more powerful cartridge that suits your purpose, don't risk harming your firearms or yourself by loading them up with overpressure loads which only beget a minor increase in ballistics performance.

+25% Peak Operating Pressure =/= +25% Ballistics Performance
 
SGT ROCK 11B said:
The PD I retired from allow the Winchester Ranger 9mm +P+ load in Glocks but not in the other approved 9mm pistols.
Click to expand...
I've written about this before on this forum before so I'll keep this brief.
During the 1990s and about 1/2 of the 1980s my dept issued the W-W 115 +P+ and Fed 115 BPLE. Our issued guns were 5904/6904.
Another dept told our range people that our 5904s wouldn't hold up to the W-W +P+. One of our range guys started documenting how many rds thru his 5904 before it was unserviceable. His was an off the rack 5904, nothing special. Around 50,000 rds he replaced the barrel as the rifling was shot out and losing accuracy. When he retired his 5904 had documented 80,000 rds. I know he swapped out springs but I don't recall how often. It was the general maintenance SOP that we followed.
To put that in perspective.
If you fire 100 rds a week, every week without fail, then it would only take 15 years to shoot 80,000 rds.
I don't know the current price on W-W +P+. Let's say you can find it for $40 for 50 rd box. 80,000 rds would be $64,000 in ammo. If a person can spend $64,000 for 9mm then the price of the gun is pretty insignificant.
Not saying every 5904 will go that many rds of +P+. No doubt some won't. Maybe some will go longer. That's just one off the rack gun that did tho.
 
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