I have always thought it would be nice to have a Model 12. But they have always cost more than I wanted to spend on one. I have never really studied them, so I hope someone here can help me. I was recently offered one that I am thinking about buying. Nothing special with some wear. Looking down at the top of the gun, where the barrel lines up with receiver, there are a couple of proof marks on top of the barrel. They do not line up perfectly with the receiver. They are a couple of degrees to the left of the receiver, looking from the stock to the muzzle. Is this something to be concerned about? Does it need to be or can it be fixed? This is not a gun I am going to shoot a lot. But I do not want to buy problems. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you.

The offset proof marks were usually found on m12's that had factory ribs installed, I'm not sure if some of the non-ribbed might have been so marked.

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Trey Gorbett, SWCA #3676

I just checked my own model 12 made in the late 50s. Plain barrel, with one proof mark on the receiver top and one on top of the barrel in front of the receiver extension. They do not line up perfectly. The one on the receiver is not exactly on center of the grooved top of the receiver. My guess is the barrel and receiver were marked at the time of manufacture of each and no attempt was made to line them up perfectly. Zero to worry about

Nothing much to fret over. I have three M12s. None in high condition, but they still work as well as ever. In their day they were the top guns. Not so much today.

I’m agreed with the others. I don’t think there was a conscious effort at Winchester to make sure that the proof marks lined up.

Have 2 old field M12s and a 1912 in 20 ga. All were reblued, damaged etc so I have shortened them. I don’t hunt but use them in cas and WB competitions. Fine shotguns.

At one time I had 15 model 12's in all gages. Still have most of them. When you break the gun in halves, there is a tooth adjusting collar ( best I know how to describe it) held in place by a small toothed piece and screw. You can a adjust the lock up on the two haves by removing the screw and the small toothed piece to center the two halves and lock it back up in place.

This works for me Terry

Model 12's are a weakness of mine. I always seem to have a half dozen around. If you study gun design and construction, nothing is even close to their quality. I would not worry as they brutally tough.

I too am a fan. Just sent my 16 gauge to Brileys Mfg to be threaded for screw in chokes. Should be a real sweetheart.

I had a Feather weight model 12, 26" barrel, Imp Cyl. Great bird gun and also for skeet.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I picked up a 1918 made Winchester Model of 1912 from a LGS's auction site. Not an ounce of bluing left on it and the wood finish was shot and very dry. It was a Field Grade that someone had put a Poly-Choke (hate those) on. I paids $82.50 for it (this was about 5 years ago). Had the Poly-Choke cut off and the barrel shortened to 18 inches. Makes a good behind the door back up to my bedside handgun.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

The 'couple of proof marks on top of the barrel'...do you mean there are 2 separate proof marks on the bbl itself? ..plus one additional on the top of the receiver as well.

..Or one WP in an oval proof mark on the bbl and a matching one on the frame..

The standard proof marking at the Range in the Factory was one on the Bbl up close to the frame/receiver. Then a second identical mark stamped on the top of the frame itself.
Should be the standard overlapping WP inside an Oval.

That they do not exactly line up or are slightly off center from the top dead center of the bbl/frame itself is no issue. These were hand stamped after the gun was proofed and final inspected. They were done 'by eye' so being slightly off is not out of the ordinary.

If the gun has a Raised Solid Matted Rib, the standard proof marks will be off to the left side of the Rib and on the bbl again up close to the frame. Then another of the same on the frame itself.
Same for a Vent Rib Bbl.

One other thing you can run into is a replacement bbl sent out by the Winchester Service Dept for outside installation.
In this case the Barrel itself would have two(2) proof marks on it on top.
One would the standard Winchester Proof mark as above.
The other would be what most call a Postal Proof which is a 'P' in an Oval (Some appear to be in a circle).
The Postal Proof tells the story that the bbl was sent out of the Service Dept as just that,,a bbl only and for outside fitting. The WP proof shows that it was in fact first proof fired on a 'slave recv'r' at the factory before being sent.

A gun fitted up with the above bbl (Service Dept Postal Proof) would show 3 proof marks on top.
The 2 on the Bbl and the orig 1 W/P proof on the frame.

As far as looking it over for purchase, I would bring some dummy rounds along and function them through the action to make sure the carrier times correctly and you don't have to shuffle the action to get it to feed.
It'll also check ejection for you. Look right inside the open action and make sure the Ejector is even there...it doesn't have to be to have the action reassembled and make it look like it functions OK.

A few rds live fire is the best test but often not an available option.

Test the Safety and make sure it works.
Look at the TD collar that was mentioned already as it is used as an adjustment to take up wear so the gun when assembled from it's 2 main assemblies is tight.

Take the bbl assembly off and look right down at that collar and those small teeth that engage the locking block.
The collar starts out at it's tightest/least amt of wear with all of the teeth on the collar to the Left of the lock block. The block only engaging the first 2 or 3 teeth.
As it gets worn, the collar is unscrewed (backed out) a small amt (a couple of 'teeth' and then locked back in position with the block.
The back edge of the collar is now sitting higher/back further and engages the inner edge of the frame and makes for a tight TD again.
....To the point...IF that collar as you look at it has been adjusted already to it's limit or nearly so, then I would pass on the gun.
If the teeth on that collar have run out and there are no more that can be used is the collar is unscrewed, there is no more adjustment to be had.
All the teeth on the collar will be on the right side of the locking block.
Pass on it.

Winchester used to offer additional Collars marked in #'s 1 thru 5 IIRC that were threaded with slight difference in the timing. These were used to replace the existing collar when one ran it's limit of adjustment. They used to cost
about 50cents back in the day..
IF you can find any of these around day they are around $100 and up and no guarantee on which # the parts hound may have.

Much simpler to find another M12. They are not a difficult shotgun to find in VG condition and at decent prices.

Model 12's are not as pricey as they use to be. The sad fact is most of the M-12 collectors have passed on.

Yes, they are not as pricey as they were 20 years ago, but I imagine one in near-new condition would probably bring a high price. An average condition example of a field-grade M12 could probably be had for south of $400. They are not at all scarce. I'd sell any of mine for that, as I no longer use them. As I have previously expressed, I believe the M12's successor, the Model 1200, is actually a superior design. It is considerably lighter in weight and has a much smoother action. And my 1200 has been very serviceable, never had a problem of any kind with it after firing it thousands of times in Skeet. And it been heavily used before I bought it.

Was not impressed with the military issue Winchester 1200 riot guns. We took 5 to a qualification course for a MP Company out of Pittsburgh. All five had pins and such come out and loosen to the point that the guns were unusualable. Were qualifying 200 MP's and shooting 00Buck. I had brought along my personal M870 Mk1 and that one was used to finish the qualification.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

I had an M1200 and did a fair amount of hunting with it back in the 80s. I liked the weight and the good Winchoke screw in choke system. I never could warm up to the pressed in checkering....you really couldn't get a good grip on the forearm during cold weather. It was a reliable gun and not pricey, but it was no model 12.

The only fault I can point to with my 1200 is the impressed checkering on the slide and pistol grip. Especially because mine also has very nicely figured wood, probably walnut. Mine is a Skeet grade gun with a vent rib barrel, so it is a cut above the 1200 field grade. In its former life it had been a rental gun at one of the old Winchester Gun Club ranges in New Jersey which I bought after they went out of business. I later picked up a 28" full choke barrel for it so I could use it for both Skeet and Trap. The 1200 military Riot and Trench guns are today extremely desirable. Not too many were made, I believe around 12,000, and nearly all of them were later de-milled. Military shotgun collectors lust for them. I have handled several, all being the Riot version. Allegedly, some saw active duty during the Iraqi campaign, and I can personally verify that the USAF still had some in service at least into the late 2000s, but I do not know to what extent.

Yea. I shot a 1200 for years. It is a CHEAP made shotgun. Plastic trigger guard/ plastic magazine throat/ stamped action bars and internal parts/Aluminum(extra long) receiver. After using both 12 &1200/1300's........NEITHER deserve to stand in the shadow of a model 12.

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S&W Accumulator

I have handled and fired many model 12s. But I have only have one. Mine is a 12 gauge 30” full from 1955. A friend of mine had a nice pre war 17 gauge. The 12 was a really nice gun. I don’t hunt any more so I just likevto take the model 12 out every now and then and admire it or take to a turkey shoot. I also have a couple of model 97s too.

I’ve loved Model 12’s ever since I first fired one shooting skeet in college. I was pleased to be issued one in the Academy (built about 1959) and I carried it almost 20 years, until it was replaced by a new 870P.

I only have one now, issued to a classmate (doesn’t need it now that he’s gone to Heaven). Good shotgun that I won’t part with, it will be passed on to my youngest daughter when I no longer have use for it...

I’m afraid to count how many I have in the pile. They work well - their “problem” was they cost too much to manufacture. You’re looking at a 12 Gauge? It oughta be all right OR repairable. At my age now I’m shooting (hunting with) 20 gaugers now and the model 12 in 20 is slick. With or without poly choke. If you get one “with,” you can always whack the PC off and either get it tube-d or just use it with a cylinder bore. I’m surprised how well I do on birds with the open cylinder. Just have to shoot while they’re close. Get it, fix it up. They were made to be used. I’m letting my heirs worry about not getting pristine stuff. They don’t have to accept their inheritance.

Even Winchester went to using investment castings on the pre-64 Model12 shotgun in the last couple of yrs before it was retired.
The costs to mfgr were just becoming too high and investment castings were a way to cut machine time in mfg.
They used inv cast frame and trigger housing on some of those last guns out of the door.
I think they also used castings on some of the smaller parts like the trigger.

The post '64 reintroduced Model 12 (1972),,the so called 'Y series' for it's ser# prefix (required by GCA68) was built with investment castings and many of the small parts as metal stampings where a small machined out part had been used before. Again to reduce mfg'r costs.
The 'Y's' were never that well recv'd by the collectors but they seem to be strong, sturdy guns just as well.
Sometimes they could use a little smoothing up inside. One issue I've seen seems to be that the Slide Stop won't (always) drop when the gun is fired/dry fired requiring it to be manually engaged to open the breech. Not all of them of course.
An easy thing to check for and an easy fix that should have been adj when assembled.

I have a Model 12 that belonged to my Grandfather . Manufactured in 1926 . It's a " Cylinder Bore " , no choke . I was told that my Grandfather was a bird hunter but that's all I know .

For those with a snappy reflex, you don’t have to count up to (whatever) after you shoulder the gun before firing. The double lets you pick your choke, the cylinder bore lets you shoot sooner. Also real good for small birds that fly away real fast or fly all over the place. How long is your “Cylinder” barrel? Real short makes it a good “house” gun.

It's in the back of the safe but from what I remember it's a standard length . Not a short barrel . I was told that my Grandfather used Dogs to hunt so I'm thinking Quail possibly . Maybe Pheasant .

Old, well worn and well used, but works as advertised! Model 1912 made in 1918. 12 Ga., and barrel is 18 inches.

Attached Images

	Model 12.1.jpg (96.8 KB, 34 views)
	Model 12.2.jpg (57.2 KB, 38 views)

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

I have a nice one I got for trap but could never shoot it worth a dammm. I spent a bit of time trying to trade it for a revolver, but never got any interest.

You can purchase nice models 12's for cheap nowadays. They are the finest pump shot guns in my mind.

I don’t even understand how this thread has gone on this long with only one poster putting up pictures.

I know it’s nothing new to those of us who’ve been around; I think it’s worth more than one look!

-Bill

My 16 Gauge, circa 1954

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Veteran Paratrooper, '86-'90

Has anyone other than me had a model 12 lock up after firing? I can’t figure this one out. No it’s not dirty.

18” barrel with corncob forend has a very menacing look. Like a trench gun.

I love the M12. As a young cop, my first department issued M12s (circa 1984); the chief was an avid collector of Winchesters, particularly 21s and 42s. They worked just fine, as well as the 870, which is what most other agencies were carrying in the area. No agencies carried Ithica 37s.

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213th FBINA

Made in 1920 most of the bluing is gone and it has a short chamber. So some cases will hang up on the ejection port, but I have plenty of ammo that shoots just fine out of it including a run of 2-5/8" buckshot shells that S&B ran not long ago. Got it pretty cheap and it is handy as all get out.

And those I posted were not pretty!

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Are these the proof marks you’re talking about?
See picture below.

These are on top dead center and in alignment
aiming down the barrel,
on my serial number indicated
circa 1955 Winchester Model 12 Field Grade
shotgun, 12 gauge, 2-3/4” chamber,

Take Down version separation between Receiver
and 29” plain barrel full choke, blued metal finish
and wood stocks. Smartly designed, and machined
steel.
Unusual well taken care of Farm shotgun.

Attached Images

IMG_1853.jpg (40.3 KB, 20 views)

Sorry but to my eyes the proof marks are not dead center and in perfect alignment. The one on the receiver is off center slightly to the left when viewed from the top. The oval is slightly canted to the right also. Close but no cigar.

I appreciate all of the advice. I ran into a Beretta 1934 and bought it instead. But I will get a Model 12 one of these days. In the meantime I will look more closely at the proof marks. Thanks to all who responded.

Here’s some pix. Two that I modded.

Attached Images

IMG_8150.jpg (72.2 KB, 14 views)

You can never go wrong by buying a Beretta 1934. My favorite classic .380. I currently have six

Proofs on a 1948 mfg.