...why is the long eye relief scope part of the package? The only thing I can think of is quick target acquisition. It seems that 'ghost ring' sights would be a better choice for close up encounters.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

My recollection is the forward scope mounting was for faster reloading of the bolt action. Most Scout-style rifles had backup aperture sights also.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

There's a lot of discussion here:
Has the Scout Rifle Outlived it's Hey Day?

__________________
"I also cook."

Agree ghost-rings are a little quicker, but they don't do much for magnification.

I have a Savage in 308 I use for deer. I find it pretty handy.

__________________
Because of the metric system?

I had one of those too, with the Leupold Scout Scope on it. I didn't consider myself particularly recoil-sensitive at that time, but the combination of the light weight and stock design made that one highly uncomfortable to shoot.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Just get an AR. ARs come in a wide variety of calibers nowadays. But honestly, if you can’t settle matters with a 223/556 or a 308/762, it’s probably time to call in an air strike. The air strike comment was a joke; just in case there are any liberals reading this.

My new favorite scope for the “Scout” concept is the Leupold 1.5-5 Firedot on the 30mm tube. Turn the magnification down and turn on the dot, and it’s almost as fast as anything. Turn the magnification to 5X and you can reach a long way.

That goofy scope halfway down the barrel never made a bit of sense to me.

So that the rifle Jeff Cooper wanted to use as his "Scout " could be loaded from the top , bolt open , with stripper clips .
I was never a big fan of the forward mounted scout scope myself and much preferred regular rear mounted scope ...
But ... to each his own .
Stripper clip rifle loading can be fast !
Gary

__________________
Certified Cajun
NRA Member

An Extended eye relief scope with 2-3x magnification makes it easier to shoot with both eyes open. Try doing that with a 2x Lyman Alaskan…

I am certain that Jeff Cooper would’ve loved the optics options we have today. Red dots but especially the low magnification prism sights. I find those even easier to shoot with both eyes open.

As noted by s&wchad, there was a long thread a few months ago that just got resurrected...

IMHO, in the context of the time, the Scout concept made sense... an intermediate range rifle that was handy and could be reloaded quickly, yet provided better accuracy than similar military versions.

Modern semi-autos in mid-range calibers with detachable mags and modern optics fill the same roles more effectively, so the Scout rifle is mostly a nostalgic curiosity at this point.

As someone who was both alive and a rifle instructor in AZ when the scout rifle concept was developed and being promoted here’s my recollection of it.

It had several basic premises:

- Reliable bolt action;
-18” to 20” barrel;
- usually but not exclusively chambered for .308/7.62 NATO (7mm-08 was also popular as was .243 and 6mm Rem on the lower end and .350 Rem Mag on the high end);
- weight less than 7 pounds without optics and 8 pounds with optics;
- length no more than 1 meter;
- low power (1-2x) optical sights to allow rapid close range shooting with both eyes open (I’ve seen references to as much as 3x but in my experience that is excessive for effective both eyes open shooting);
- a stripper clip guide on the receiver;
- a long eye relief scope to keep the action clear for loading via stripper clip;
- back up iron sights with a ghost ring aperture;
- accuracy sufficient to hit a torso sized target at 500 yards (roughly 2 MOA); and
- designed to accommodate a “speed sling” suitable for both carry and as a shooting support.

The idea was to create a light, fast handing, accurate carbine with sufficient power and accuracy to be useful for both hunting, and tactical use by a one to three man team. The ultimate SHTF firearm of the day.

——

The Speed Sling concept was a regular carry sling. The difference was the use of QD sockets and a third socket located in front of the forward action screw. The sling itself was adjusted in length so that when detached from the rear socket and reattached to the middle socket, it formed a U of the correct length to lock in the angle of the support arm, much like a military 1907 shooting sling except much faster to employ. It also provided much more support than a hasty sling.

This was in the early 1980s. Cooper later adopted the “Ching Sling” using a third sling loop and strap to create any already formed U.

——

The Remington 600 was a commonly available rifle that could be readily modified to a scout rifle configuration. Back in the day they were coveted for that use, particularly as they had been discontinued a few years before the Scout rifle concept began. Cooper built both his Scout 1 and his Super Scout from Model 600 carbines.

That also partially drove the caliber preferences as the 600 was available in .243 Win, 6mm Rem, 7-08 Rem, .308 Win and .350 Rem Mag (along with 6.5 Rem Mag, .35 Rem, and the too small to be considered appropriate .222 Rem and .223 Rem.

——

Interestingly Copper was not opposed to a semi auto, provided one was developed that was light enough and short enough to meet the other criteria.

Copper also liked the idea of the magazine cut off switch (like the 1903 Springfield as well as the Mauser claw style extractor with its fully controlled feed and reputation for dangerous game hunting, and very reliable extraction under field conditions.

He also was not opposed to a detachable box magazine fed design. However he preferably wanted one with either a magazine cut off switch, or two magazine stops, an initial stop to allow cartridges to be single fed on top of the magazine and then a second deeper stop to allow the shooter to feed directly from the magazine when a high rate of fire was needed or anticipated.

——

As an aside Cooper also liked the original 180 series Mini 14. That was a decade prior to the scout rifle concept but encapsulated similar ideas in terms of being light and handy with suitable accuracy (2 MOA). He would have preferred a heavier cartridge and I think would have really liked a 180 series Mini 14 in 7.62x39.

Unfortunately, Ruger designed the select fire AC-556 for law enforcement and military sales and then redesigned the 181 and later series Mini 14s to use the heavier and larger parts of the AC-556 (slide, bolt stock, gas block) as well as the larger (.080” compared to .052”) gas port. The end result was both greater weight and poor accuracy due to the over gassed condition, the excessive slide velocity, and greater reciprocating mass with its negative effects on barrel harmonics. Ruger screwed up a very promising design.

Here’s the closest thing I have to a Scout Rifle.
More like a Girl Scout Rifle.
The detachable mag is probably the feature I least like.

Attached Images

CBD5C57D-F671-486E-9EFD-889AA5070F5B.jpg (83.2 KB, 107 views)

__________________
NRA LIFE MEMBER

After the barrel was cut to 16.5" and crowned, I bought that Scout scope, for the 458, to use while I worked on the front irons.
Might make a mount for a red dot someday.
That might be called a ....... Scout Dot?

Attached Images

	FullSizeRender.jpg (77.5 KB, 48 views)
	IMG_3895.jpg (54.1 KB, 72 views)
	IMG_3174.jpg (22.8 KB, 67 views)
	IMG_2870.jpg (13.4 KB, 52 views)

__________________
Have Fun/Stay Safe

I think I remember seeing him carrying one with his hand around the action like you can with an unscoped lever gun. Handy to run through the woods with while fighting a government insurrection for those with the tin foil hats

If you have a good, accurate hunting rifle that you shoot well, you're likely ahead of the Scout concept and fad. Not everyone was a Jeff Cooper disciple.

Agree. IIRC, the Scout rifles from back then were expensive, in the $2,000 range. While not a rifleman, I thought wouldn't a surplus military bolt action serve just as well. Something along the lines of a Lee Enfield Jungle Carbine. A lot less expensive in those days, for sure.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

For a current day version, this would do. Hits most of the criteria and the ones it doesn't are kinda irrelevant. Box magazine makes the stripper clips and forward mounted optics unnecessary. 16" barrel is fine. Loss of velocity doesn't take it out of performance spec. Weight and length are below standards and the sling attachments are endless. But it ain't exactly cheap at $1500.

403 Forbidden

__________________
The best I can with what I got

Thanks to S&WCHAD for posting the link to the earlier thread.

The scout rifle concept is of debatable utility, especially within the narrow parameters described by Jeff Cooper.
Furthermore, it wasn’t even his original concept!!

The Germans researched, developed, and fielded under combat conditions the same type of rifle during the second half of WWII.
Known as the ZF-41, it began with a long eye relief scope mounted on a detachable mount fitted to select Mauser K-98 rifles. The ZF-41 program later expanded to include the semiauto G-41 rifle, and a short carbine.
Specified as a designated marksman rifle, it was intended to fulfill a different role than a true sniper rifle.
The field results were mixed. Many of these rifles were abandoned in favor of captured scoped mounted Moisin-Nagant rifles.

I believe American Rifleman covered this in an article entitled, “The Original Scout Rifle?” (Published Dec. 2006)

The K98k Zf 41—The First Scout Rifle? | An Official Journal Of The NRA

And, it is covered in much deeper detail in this book, “The German Sniper 1914-1945” by Peter Senich.

PS: COLLECTORS BEWARE! It is very easy to fit unused ZF-41 scopes and mounts to existing K-98s and other rifles.

Attached Images

	IMG_0968.jpg (19.1 KB, 32 views)
	IMG_0967.jpg (15.8 KB, 37 views)
	IMG_0969.jpg (62.3 KB, 37 views)
	IMG_0970.jpeg (52.9 KB, 31 views)

I’ve never really been a rifleman, more of a hand gunner and shotgunner. Having said that, I own a few comparatively nice rifles and carbines. Spending my LEO career in the PRNJ, I never had an opponent to shoot my rifle at over 150 yards. 50 yards was qualification range, with reduced targets If I remember correctly.
I did build up a scout type rifle topping an older Savage Scout with a Burris Scout scope. It’s my Pocono deer rifle now; not because it’s the best rifle for the application, just that it’s adequate and I already own it.

I’ve owned two Jungle carbines over the years and still have one. They are light and very handy. But they are not very accurate and don’t hold a zero well.

With the exception of a 500 yard capability a scout rifle doesn’t offer all that much more than a traditional Model 94 carbine in .30-30. If you don’t need to shoot past 200 yards, it’ll do everything a “scout rifle” will. You can’t reload it as fast, but you can reload it on the go feeding on or more rounds in the the loading gate while on the move and keeping it topped off.

I'm a scout, a guide and I escort parties of hunters through dangerous terrain inhabited by dangerous animals. I need a light gun because I must always have it at the ready, hanging in my Ching sling in case we are attacked by a herd of mountain lions or wild pigs, or wolves, or bears. I need to be able to empty my magazine and reload quickly with rounds in stripper clips. The men in my party depend on me for their safety. In my rugged backwoods hunting gear and hat three sizes to big, I ride on my trail mule, "Ole Blood and Guts". If I see an animal 500 yards away, getting ready to attack, I need to fell it with one shot, therefore my cartridge of choice is a .308, good for anything in North America with a heart or head shot and my long eye relief 6x scope makes such a shot easy. If a predator breaks out of the brush in a charge, I switch to my ghost ring sights and rapid fire until the threat is stopped.

Am I on the right track? I have a feeling that this makes for better writing or beer hall stories than it does in reality.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Haha! You’re conclusion is spot on!

Personally, when Jeff Cooper, through his old Guns & Ammo column, put forth “his idea” about the scout rifle, (conveniently glossing over historical fact), it all sounded to me like a publicity stunt set up for a new product.

I bought some ammo off of a gent that showed me his Krag 30-40 done up as a Scout. Nifty little thing, and quick to reload.

__________________
Because of the metric system?

Except for sitting at a bench trying to make itty bitty groups I always shoot two eyes open. The scout scope Id think is meant to be shot like that too. Snap shooting, reflex or point, whatever you want to call it is better and easier done two up. You have two eyes, use 'em.

The "Scout Rifle "concept....... IMHO went the way of the Dodo with the introduction of the red-dot sights.

An aperture sight should work at least as well if you're shooting at distances under 200 yards and it requires no batteries.

True..... but I do like the red-dot concept for under 200. Many of my rifles have Skinner back up iron sights.

i'm also fond of the Small Leupold 1-3/4-20 scopes

Long-eye relief scopes are handy for mounting in place of the stock rear sight of many milsurps. The result looks like a scout rifle, but usually is not because of weight. It does avoid having to drill and tap a collectible firearm.

__________________
Release the Kraken

I had a friend (now deceased) who not only knew Jeff Cooper well but was one of his instructors at Gunsite. When asked about Cooper's Scout Rifle concept he really didn't get why Cooper was so hung up on the concept and came up with some arbitrary specs for it.

Cooper was opinionated and lent a great deal of knowledge and tactics to the shooting sports...but he wasn't a magician or prophet but I think most would feel he had some brilliant insights. He had many great takes on the subject but some may make one shake your head. It's like a buffet regarding his thoughts and opinions...you pick and choose which you like and want to integrate into your own training and practice regimen.

Was the Scout intended for Military or Civilian use?
RW probably knows the answer, but he’s out somewhere in the Boonies,
No Cell Coverage.
We got to him a Satellite Telephone!

__________________
NRA LIFE MEMBER

That’s accurate. And it holds true today for most tactical whatever instructors.

They need a gimmick to sell beyond the basic fundamentals, whether they make any real sense or not, or whether they offer any real practicality outside of niche military or law enforcement situations, and more often than not those tactics are transient and evolving.

Here is a rifle pertinent for this discussion since it uses a long eye relief scope (more out of convenience than necessity)I put this together using a rescued 1943 Mosin Nagant barrelled action, & used parts I found. I had plenty of 7.62x54R for my Romanian PSL rifle, & it was a very interesting project, Featuring Archangel stock, Timney Trigger, Pistol scope on original rear sight mount with up to 100yd iron sight below scope. It is very accurate & big noisy fun. that out-performs its cost.

Attached Images

	91-30 rear.jpg (121.1 KB, 35 views)
	91-30 muzzle.jpg (111.8 KB, 33 views)
	91-30 right bolt.jpg (77.0 KB, 31 views)

The long eye relief scope doesn’t make it a scout rifle. It’s too long, too heavy and has an over magnified optic.

The muzzle brake is also a really bad idea for field use, particularly as envisioned for a team or 2 or 3.

Building that piece using an already bubba'd Mosin looks like fun. Obviously, results will vary depending on the wear and tear suffered by the action before you got it.

I have two or three 91/30 stock sets that I scored cheap at an auction, but so far no donor actions at sensible prices have crossed my path.

__________________
Release the Kraken

I prefer to shoot offhand unless I'm sighting something. And if I can brag, I'm a terrific flash shooter. I had a LOT of practice in my teenage years on my treks through the woods shooting at anything that looked shootable. That's about all I can do really well, though.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

It is my understanding that an intermediate eye relief scope will work for some folks but not others. I am not talking about just simply disliking it out on the barrel, but the way a persons brain processes the image. Apparently, Col. Cooper had the ability to see through this type of sight with absolute clarity. I have been told some people get "lost" in it and cannot resolve the image. I do not have first hand experience with the IER scope, but this is what I was told by someone who does. This has nothing to do with the washed out image when the sun is behind you that so many people complain about.

Give or take some 65 years ago as a teenager, hunting white-tail along the hills and ridge lines of NY/Pennsy woods things were steep, slippery, dense brush and to me there was no better rifle ever devised than a Winny 94 in 30-30.

Especially if you were lucky enough to a: get the shot and bag a buck and b: after field dressing and now to drag him out and down (sometimes had to go a little ways up in order to get down....if you know what I mean). That rifle was light enough for one hand carry while the other hand is dragging the deer.

Also...if the Winchester lever rifle was good enough for the original real, Native American scouts....who am I to argue!

I really don't know about optics as I never came across any use for them in dense brush gun situations.

Attached Images

	Win 94-2.jpg (57.2 KB, 23 views)
	Win 94-5.jpg (61.7 KB, 28 views)
	Alma Pond.jpg (41.5 KB, 24 views)
	Alma Pond terrain.jpg (262.7 KB, 25 views)
	Indian Scout.jpg (121.2 KB, 29 views)

__________________
Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570

It was intended to be for primarily civilian use for both hunting and tactical use. Think of it as a SHTF rifle, before the term was popularized, but more practically centered on hunting and long range accuracy that what people choose for a SHTF rifle today.

——

It’s day as a popular fad has come and gone, but it’s still effective for what it was designed to do.

So of course is the Winchester Model 94. Over 7 million of them made and it’s arguably taken more deer than any other rifle in the US, with the Marlin 36/336 lever action taking a close second. They are by no means new technology but they still do what they were designed to do extremely well - like the Scout rifle.

That’s separate from current popularity.

In order to work the magnification has to be pretty minimal, on the order of 1x, 1.5x, or 2x.

Way back in the day (1970) the single point sight was used by the military. It didn’t have an objective lens but instead used a fiber optic to gather light to display a 16 MOA dot on a black background in front of the shooters dominant eye. With both eyes open the dot was then superimposed on what was seen by the shooter’s non dominant eye.

Both a more modern red dot sight and a long eye relief low magnification scope work the same way, provided the magnification is kept very low so the brain can reconcile and integrate both images.

Gun writers need to have something to talk about and keep their name in the public...it's their brand and they need to stay relevant.

I've always enjoyed Mas Ayoob's writings. His In the Gravest Extreme should be required reading for anyone interested in self-defense. It's still relevant today even though some hardware has evolved since it was first written. But I don't agree with everything he says...but I also don't write books or serve as an expert witness as he does. His influence on the serious subject of armed self-defense cannot be underestimated.

The same goes for other writers...no matter how influential they are or were. Bill Jordan...Chuck Taylor...Elmer Keith...Ray Chapman and others all have gravitas and influence. We each take not account what works for us and integrate into our training. Since some of those were active the laws have changed regarding the subject...so tactics must change with it.

...the Win '94. That is my favorite rifle of all time. Right now I only have a .22 in that model, though. I hope to acquire a full sized on someday.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

It's often said, that having a rifle and handgun, when in the field, is prudent and fun.
So here's my Scout Pistol.
But sometimes it's just a scoped or iron sight pistol.
There was room on the rail, so the files came out.
The Mrs likes the DPP as opposed to a 2X scope.
Might make her a red dot mount for the 9422.

Attached Images

FullSizeRender.jpg (130.5 KB, 21 views)

__________________
Have Fun/Stay Safe

It's gratifying that there are folks who 'were there' and remember the origin stories of such as the Scout rifle. And Jeff. I met a chap who had a Ruger scout rifle but knew nothing of its purpose vs all other rifles, nor heard of Jeff either. And didn't know how to pronounce the acronym IPSC! Which even Ray Chapman pronounced otherwise, but he and I were there with Jeff when he formed the org in '76 so I suppose we know best, eh?

__________________
The Holstorian

I never really felt a need for a "scout rifle" but did have a desire for a bolt action .308. When a Remington M-600 Mohawk showed up at the LGS it seemed to satisfy my desire for two criteria in that it was short in length, and it was .308. Later, a Mossberg Model 46 (.22lr) showed up at the same store with the first seven (7) inches of the muzzle so rusted that it could only be used as a "don't allow your rifle to look like this" and I added it to my, someday I'll fix 'er up, inventory. A month or so later I did fix 'er up. I cut it back eight (8) inches crowned the muzzle, added a scope and sighted it to seventy-five yards.

Now I have two "scout rifles", the original Remington with a nice scope and the Mosberg 46 with a lessor quality scope. Both are exactly what I expect them to be and do. A light handy rifle which is good for large game, and a light handy rifle for small game.

A lot of people have seen my shortened .22 and really like it. So much so that I've been asked to shorten several of their rifles like I did mine. I always tell them that once it's gone it's gone, and I can't put it back. That doesn't seem to bother them and it's much cheaper than going out and buying another rifle.

Attached Images

20180507_225103.jpg (65.5 KB, 16 views)

I always thought what Mr. Cooper had to say was fun to read. It was obvious he put considerable thought into his positions, usually based on his personal experiences. He was a good story teller, and I think something of a showman, for lack of a better term. That’s about all any outdoorsman-writer can do, really. All of his various personality “defects” that so annoyed his detractors I just regarded as interesting and amusing.

Over the years I experimented off and on with several scout type rifles. None of them ever exactly satisfied Mr. Cooper’s criteria for an ideal example - including the factory produced Steyr. Of them, my favorite is a plain, box stock Remington Model 7 with Kevlar stock and a receiver-mounted 1-4x Leupold scope. It’s not handy to carry like a similar rifle would be with a forward-mounted scope, and it doesn’t have any of the gadgets Cooper favored, but it is comfortable to use and it satisfies the basic desire for a short, light carbine capable of good precision and sufficient power for most purposes.

I’m not sure there is any real need for battery-powered gizmos on a scout rifle, but there’s probably no great harm in them either, as long as they are not the only sighting device. A reflex sight might be helpful in extremely dim light at a close range target. The battery powered red dot in a low-powered telescope probably is better still, in most cases. Red dots show up these days on quite a few African rifles used at short range in quick shooting, but those same weapons usually aren’t also equipped with a telescope. The AR15 crowd, with their angle mounted red dots, might be on to something, but I would not be comfortable with that arrangement. It adds to the clumsiness and clutter that is avoided on the little Model 7.

If I should decide to cobble up anything similar to a scout these days, it would be very similar to the Model 7 but on a Model 70 action. I can do without the forward scope and the gadgets, but the light and handy part sure is nice. My Model 7 does a better job of that than the Steyr, which is neither lighter nor handier.

Col.Jeff Cooper Also wrote about Flash Sight Picture as a defensive handgun shooting skill but that rarely is spoken about today , but even before cooper came up with the term Flash sight picture and it was taught at his training center guys were training with a version of it as officers or hunters that used hand guns when quick follow shots could be needed now like for hog hunting for me . Even bird hunters or clay shooter used FSP and probably never new it had a name !

Absolutely true.........A bad idea from the beginning.....Surprised it still hangs on.........If ya want a fighting rifle. Get an AR.

__________________
S&W Accumulator

Jeff Cooper preferred the .30-06 first and thought the .308 was a somewhat lesser substitute. He disliked the AR platform. He also was of the M1 Garand/1911 .45ACP generation…so he came by his preferences honestly.

I do think it’s fair to say history has passed him by if not proven some of his attitudes incorrect. Technology has improved the performance of ammunition greatly as well as the firearms themselves. Saying that does not negate the value of Cooper’s training techniques and principles of armed self-defense. Those principles are as valid today as when he developed them. The difference is that equipment has evolved.

That might be the best answer.

I have several highly collectible milsurps that I wanted to hang a scope on. The No D&T base mounts on the rear sight with no modification to the rifle. Easy to switch back if wanted. A red dot or reflex would not be an option.

I just think it's cool and works well. Put up against a more traditional scoped rifle I shoot both just the same.

Years ago I pretty much switched to using Scout type rifles for all my big game hunting. I use a Steyr Scout in 308 or a Remington 660 in 350 Remington Magnum. Both have forward mounted low power scopes and Ching Slings.

They are the quickest handling rifles I’ve ever used. Accuracy is great and they don’t wear you out lugging them around in the field.

It takes a little practice to adapt to shooting with both eyes open, but it’s a skill that will serve you well