38 Special: The Vintage Ammo Test!!!!

[armsmaster270]

Tex:
I thought about that after posting then had to leave. On the ammo we fired all issue ammo at Semi Annual Quals then they issued all fresh. They were designed to be fired in a good 38 Spl they were a 15% overload from +P ammo. here is the info from Winchester +P+110gr the CHP used

Breaker:
Issue ammo city issued S&W mod 15 4" with 158 ball but we could carry our own after Super Vels came out then the FBI LSWCHP and then the Treasury load. When they stopped issuing 158gr LRN the issue ammo became manditory. Even had to carry them in my mod 19 I carried under my shirt as a BUG.
My issue 38

 

[stiab]

Did you fire many of those very hot Treasury loads in your .38? Weren't they really meant for use in .357's?

T-Star

I see that statement (intend for use in .357) frequently on the internet, but have not yet heard a law enforcement officer of that era confirm it. I could be wrong, but in my opinion it is material for urban legend. It was certainly not true when I was issued the Treasury load seen below. The standard issue weapon of that day was a Colt or S&W 4" .38 Special, and this is the ammo (the only box I have left) they intended us to carry in it...

 

[armsmaster270]

Same here they issued it for 38's I have 1 winchester and two federal boxes left of the +P+. I also bought my issue mod 15 for $125.00 when they went to Sig 9mm's I have 2 boxes of Black Talon 127gr SXT+P+ 9mm and a Sig 228 9mm

The Winchester 110gr +P+ is rated at 1218fps out of a 4" barreled 38spl. Lower out of a .357mag due to bullet jump in the longer cylinder.

 

[kmrcstintn]

I'd rather use a .38 spl +p that offers controlled followup shots instead of revved up magnums for HD; let's not even mention the 'overstimulation' that magnum loads produce within enclosed environments...especially the damage they do to the human auditory system; even the 'punier' older stuff/current stuff is better that nothing if it is all you have on hand

 

[browntown]

I have shot a few of those with great results. Don't have the chrono data but that western x wad cutter is the straightest shooting ammo I have.

 

[MKT]

I see that statement (intend for use in .357) frequently on the internet, but have not yet heard a law enforcement officer of that era confirm it. I could be wrong, but in my opinion it is material for urban legend. It was certainly not true when I was issued the Treasury load seen below. The standard issue weapon of that day was a Colt or S&W 4" .38 Special, and this is the ammo (the only box I have left) they intended us to carry in it...

I probably have 15, or more boxes of the Treasury round in my stock pile. That was our Gov't issue ammo from the time I came on until they finally authorized carrying .357 Magnum ammo. Shoot, we weren't even authorized to carry speedloaders until 1988, everything was 6 and 12 round loops.

Our issue guns were .357's (S&W, Rugers and a few Colts[very few]) but the ammo was .38 Special. I believe now, this was mostly a matter of money. The Gov't ammo contract, which supplied ammo for all Federal Law Enforcement is huge and it saved money to have everyone using the same ammo. As far as use in .357 guns only, never ever heard that. I still carry the Treasury round in my Detective Special and it was used in all of the under cover .38 snubbies in the issue room and those guns issued to the Special Agents.

When we wanted to carry Magnums, we had to qualify with them and provide our own ammo. It hurt to spend $27 a box on 147 grain Silver Tips, but I gladly bought two boxes a quarter until converting to a semi-auto for duty carry.

 

[armsmaster270]

As the back of the boxes were printed they were designed for use in good condition all steel 38spl's no alloy guns. Follow up shots were no problem with the +P+ load and accuracy was excellent. They actually lost performance in .357Mag's.

 

[SuperMan]

I had forgotten about the T load....wonder how it compares to the current CorBon .38 Special 110 +P load....

Bob

 

[flop-shank]

I had forgotten about the T load....wonder how it compares to the current CorBon .38 Special 110 +P load....

Bob

My hunch is about the same, Bob. The Corbon JHP load is very "magnumish" and has much more recoil and muzzle blast than 110 gr. +P DPX, or Speer SB .38+P. It was very impressive in Perma-Gel and penetration was very deep (IIRC ~ 15"). No doubt you know that the Sierra JHPs, such as Corbon uses in that load, are old school, and behave not unlike a Remington SJHP.

 

[xcop]

T load vs CorBon

I happened to have chrono tested the Federal 110+p+,the Winchester 110+p+ as well as the DPX +p on the same day thru the same Ruger sp101 3in magnum version. Velocities all overlapped each other and all three were in the 1065-1075 range. None could hold a candle however to the 110+p CorBon with the Sierra bullet. That load reached 1207 from the same Ruger and hit 1200fps avg from a Smith 640.
I have another lot of the Winchester that averages 1122 fps from a 3in 36.

 

[SuperMan]

x...thanks for the information.... The few times a decade I carry a .38 it is loaded with CorBon 110s or PowR'Ball.

An ex-partner in Dallas once shot a guy with a M15 using a hot handload using a 110 Sirerra. It was probably screaming a little more than 1200 fps. Partner shot through a door at a guy who was waiting for him on the other side with a gun...put the guy right down. This was back in the late 1960s or early 70s.

My ex-partner told me the loads were really too hot for a M15 as the extra barrel shank sticking out from the frame ended up cracking...in a M19 this would not have happened...

Bob

 

[Richard Simmons]

Howdy BreakerDan, that would be me. I have some of the same ammo, and will hopefully be doing the test in October. I plan on shooting 5 rounds from each box, from a 4" Model 28. Below is a pic of the old stuff I have, and there is a greater ammo of newer ammo that will also be tested for velocity.

As to the 38-44 loads, I don't blame you for not shooting them. Over on The High Road there is an excellent 38-44 thread, with one of the posters showing his 'wheel' of Heavy Duty S&W revolvers, and stating that his test of that original factory ammo runs (IIRC) 1125 to 1150 fps, depending on barrel length.

As to the 110 grain Treasury loads, I have previously tested some of those and they were a disappointing 1077 fps from a 4" Model 15, far below the Super Vel 110 grain at 1221 from the same gun.

Thanks for going to the trouble to test, record, and post the results of your ammo test!

Were you ever able to test these? From your post in the "Bodyguard" thread I did a search and found this thread but the original poster only tested one +P load. Didn't know if you posted your test in another thread or not?

 

[stiab]

Were you ever able to test these? From your post in the "Bodyguard" thread I did a search and found this thread but the original poster only tested one +P load. Didn't know if you posted your test in another thread or not?

Actually, the OP tested two +P loads (although the Federal FBI load was not id'ed as +P) and one +P+ load. What is even more telling though is the low numbers from the older standard ammo, which some claim from reading old ads that they clocked at about 850 fps.

For my test I have received a large shipment of ammo to be included from a contributor, and am waiting for some 60 degree weather, which should be here soon. And, I also have several other tests to do involving smaller amounts of 38 Auto, .38 Super from revolvers, .357 mag in carbine and revolver, etc.

 

[Richard Simmons]

Actually, the OP tested two +P loads (although the Federal FBI load was not id'ed as +P) and one +P+ load. What is even more telling though is the low numbers from the older standard ammo, which some claim from reading old ads that they clocked at about 850 fps.

For my test I have received a large shipment of ammo to be included from a contributor, and am waiting for some 60 degree weather, which should be here soon. And, I also have several other tests to do involving smaller amounts of 38 Auto, .38 Super from revolvers, .357 mag in carbine and revolver, etc.

Thanks, I'll look forward to it.

In your opinion is the older ammo still as viable today after 20, 30, 40+ years as it was when originally loaded? I understand there are velocity differences between test barrels and real firearms just as there are between different barrel lengths within the same model of firearm. I'm just curious if shooting ammo loaded perhaps serveral if not many decades ago is reflective of the readings it would have presented when fresh?

Also are powders today engineered differently in regards to how they deal with breakdown over time, storage & handling conditions, etc?

 

[stiab]

In your opinion is the older ammo still as viable today after 20, 30, 40+ years as it was when originally loaded? I understand there are velocity differences between test barrels and real firearms just as there are between different barrel lengths within the same model of firearm. I'm just curious if shooting ammo loaded perhaps serveral if not many decades ago is reflective of the readings it would have presented when fresh?

That's an excellent question that I do not have a definitive answer to. My belief is that it will be as potent today as it was then, but that is based primarily upon the results of the Old -vs-New .38 Super test I performed a while back, and a few other tests I have done. If you did not see the .38 Super results, a link is given below. In it, I tested rounds of .38 Super from 5 boxes that ranged in age from 40 to 70 years old (along with several boxes of new ammo), and the old averaged 1202 fps. This leads me to believe that the ammo has not degraded over the years.

Also a short while back I tested some Super Vel 110 grain .38 Special that clocked 1221 fps from a 4" Model 15, leading me to believe the last 35 to 40 years have not harmed it. But, there is no way to know for sure, that I am aware of. I'm glad other people find this as interesting as I do!

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/65553-ammo-test-old-vs-new-38-super.html

 

[P&R Fan]

I realize the original post was quite a while ago, but it's a good thing you didn't shoot the 38/44 rounds. I understand they are highly collectible. I have a Heavy Duty and an Outdoorsman and I've never even seen a round of 38/44 except in pictures. Very interesting test.

 

[stiab]

I realize the original post was quite a while ago, but it's a good thing you didn't shoot the 38/44 rounds. I understand they are highly collectible. I have a Heavy Duty and an Outdoorsman and I've never even seen a round of 38/44 except in pictures. Very interesting test.

Here's a 38-44 link from The High Road you might be interested in, where posters give actual results from testing the original ammo. Especially good in about the 4th post up from the bottom on the last page where a gentleman shows his "wheel" of Outdoorsmans and HD's.

S&w 38/44 - THR

 

[Raider]

This is valuable and interesting info. Thanks!

Charlie

 

[P&R Fan]

Stiab, Dang it, now that I looked at the "wheel" I'm gonna be having dreams about 'em tonight! Oh well, I guess one Heavy Duty and one Outdoorsman will have to do for now for me. Sometimes I wonder what product S@W has today that will make collectors drool in 50 or 60 years.

 

[stiab]

Stiab, Dang it, now that I looked at the "wheel" I'm gonna be having dreams about 'em tonight!

I was pretty sure you would enjoy that, P@R!!