Im stumped, 41 S&W Caliber?

[jeepranch]

I inherited a set of lyman ideal dies in the box. They are marked 41 S&W, after searching the teller of all truths, Ive come up with nothing! Can anyone tell me what I have? Are these really 41 colt dies? thanks

Bill

 

[flagman1776]

Might it be 41 S&W Magnum?
Russ

 

[jeepranch]

Might it be 41 S&W Magnum?
Russ

Remington developed the 41 mag

 

[Jellybean]

I'd read something years ago about S&W offering a .41S&W but could never find anything about it. It's possible they used it instead of ".41 Colt" to keep the Colt name off their firearms, but then Lyman/Ideal would have to have made dies under both designations too.

Hopefully some of the more knowedgable folks here will be able to help you out more than I can, but I'd like to know if you find anything out at all. I'm a .41 anything junkie.

Good luck and welcome to the forum.

 

[jeepranch]

I'd read something years ago about S&W offering a .41S&W but could never find anything about it. It's possible they used it instead of ".41 Colt" to keep the Colt name off their firearms, but then Lyman/Ideal would have to have made dies under both designations too.

Hopefully some of the more knowedgable folks here will be able to help you out more than I can, but I'd like to know if you find anything out at all. I'm a .41 anything junkie.

Good luck and welcome to the forum.

Thanks Jelly, I was thinking along the same lines, but you would think it would be documented somewhere. The box looks old, at least 50s, probably older. Ill see if I can post a pix

 

[john traveler]

I have the same Lyman 310/Truline dies, and the sizer/decapper is marked "41 Magnum FL" meaning .41 Magnum full-length sizer.

The expander plug die is marked "410" meaning .410" diameter.

I can't think of any other appropriate cartridge, can you?

 

[2152hq]

They look like 310 dies. They are still made and Lyman provided them in 41 Mag and also 41 Colt.
I'd guess yours are for the 41 S&W Magnum cartridge.
I did see one set that was marked '41 Colt Long' quite a while ago.

41Mag is a .410 bullet,,,,,,41Colt is a .400

Do a search for 'The 310 Shop' They are in Texas I think. They still make alot of 310 dies and tools. Alot of obsolete cal dies and at one time I believe they actually made the dies that Lyman retailed.

It would be neat though if they were some special production dies for a .41 S&W Special cartridge..

 

[Alk8944]

There was a .41 S&W cartridge!

This basically never made it out of the experimental stage sometime in the 1890s. Basically it was similar to .41 Long Colt with an inside lubricated bullet aprox. .386 diameter as the later .41 LC with the inside lubricated hollow-base bullet. The case was slightly shorter and had a larger rim than the Colt round. Only two revolvers are known to have been chambered for it, both #3 top-breaks.

Since there were only two guns it is highly unlikely Lyman made dies for this cartridge. They are probably for .41 Magnum.

 

[Jellybean]

Looking at the photo it does look like they'd be for the .41 magnum.

The ad I saw was from a lot longer in the past, and I believe it was for New Model No. 3s. Thanks for the info Alk8944, I found an old Ideal mould for an IL .41 Colt bullet in a gun store, then had to find a gun to go with it.

 

[Smithhound]

Measure the expander ball and see what diameter it is .398 or .408. At the least try a .41 magnum case in it (lubed, those are pre carbide) go slow and see what you come out with. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Most likely it is for the Magnum, but being non-carbide would make for a better display item than a useful set. You could also contact Lyman and ask.
RD

 

[Hairy]

If you reference the all-knowing, all-seeing Herter's PROFESSIONAL LOADING OF RIFLE, PISTOL,AND SHOTGUN CARTRIDGES from years ago, you will find the .41 S&W Magnum on page 417. Rim dia.=.492" Length of case= 1.290" Rim thickness=.060" loaded length overall=1.590" These are the same dimensions listed in the LYMAN CAST BULLET HANDBOOK for the .41 Remington Magnum.

I would suspect the .41 S&W Magnum and the .41 Remington Magnum to be one and the same. But, then, what would I know.

 

[jeepranch]

If you reference the all-knowing, all-seeing Herter's PROFESSIONAL LOADING OF RIFLE, PISTOL,AND SHOTGUN CARTRIDGES from years ago, you will find the .41 S&W Magnum on page 417. Rim dia.=.492" Length of case= 1.290" Rim thickness=.060" loaded length overall=1.590" These are the same dimensions listed in the LYMAN CAST BULLET HANDBOOK for the .41 Remington Magnum.

I would suspect the .41 S&W Magnum and the .41 Remington Magnum to be one and the same. But, then, what would I know.

good info, thanks, I believe you are right, they are 41 mag dies, how strange

 

[flagman1776]

I believe that the 41 Mag was a joint project between S&W and Remington. It was in the gun magazines at the time.
Russ

 

[george minze]

Back in the 60's S#W came out with a fixed sight heavy barrel revolver especially for police use. It came with two loadings. 1. high power for Highway Patrol. 2. lower power for city police. Both ere called S&W .41 Mags. if my memory doesn't fail one revolver was the model 57, the other was model 58. One had fixed sights the other looked just like a 44 mag with adjustable sights. I don't think it really took off. I do know Cincinnati police tested them back in the 60's in the lower loading, fixed sight model. Officers thought them to be too heavy...testing was as far as they got.

 

[Jellybean]

I would suspect the .41 S&W Magnum and the .41 Remington Magnum to be one and the same.

If the box had mentioned anything at all about "magnum" it would have been a no brainer. And who makes a magnum round without a non-magnum ancestor anyway?

Lyman may have done it because the S&W .41 magnums barrels were only marked "Smith and Wesson" on one side and ".41 magnum" on the other. Marking their boxes with "Remington" would have only added to confusion since you won't find any Remingtons in .41 Magnum. Although a 788 carbine in .41 Remington Magnum would be a real gem.

And if no other manufacturers were making a .41 magnum at the time, marking the dies .41 S&W would have been understandable. The only other choice would have been the .41 Colt.

 

[NWShooter]

There was a .41 S&W cartridge!

This basically never made it out of the experimental stage sometime in the 1890s. Basically it was similar to .41 Long Colt with an inside lubricated bullet aprox. .386 diameter as the later .41 LC with the inside lubricated hollow-base bullet. The case was slightly shorter and had a larger rim than the Colt round. Only two revolvers are known to have been chambered for it, both #3 top-breaks.

Since there were only two guns it is highly unlikely Lyman made dies for this cartridge. They are probably for .41 Magnum.

FYI and I realize that I am quite late on this thread, but to --- Alk8944 is correct-
U.S. Cartridges and Their Handguns by Charles R Suydam (1977) shows a .41 S&W cartridge on page 192. I am not suggesting that the dies in the original post are for this cartridge but thought I would pass on the details.

Cartridge dimensions:
Rim dia. - .455
Head dia - .406
Case mouth dia. - .406
Bullet dia. - .373
Case length - 1.041
Overall length - 1.470

Quoting the text:
"The .41 S&W is one of a series of experimental cartridges made for S&W by UMC sometime in the period 1890-1910. It is unlike any other .41 calibre cartridge, and no information as to its load, bullet weight, or powder type has been found".

The text goes on for two pages but my typing is so slow I am not going to try.

I am not a big forum guy and do not know how these things work but, is it OK to scan and upload the pages from a book like this or is that a copyright infringement?

Chris

 

[mkk41]

Oddly , there is no .41 S&W cartridge listed in the latest , 11th edition of Barnes Cartridges of the World.

If it was a factory experimental round , I find it odd that there would be reloading dies for it.

 

[NWShooter]

I agree and that's why I said, "I am not suggesting that the dies in the original post are for this cartridge...".
Like many others on any forum I just had this fit of "knowledge conceit" and thought I would pass the info on.

 

[oldRoger]

Those are old boxes, I havn't seen any like that for a very long time. I have a stick of Lyman Cast Bullet Lube the box is similar to those and it is from the middle 50s.

 

[ddixie884]

I really like the way the folks on this forum answer these inquiries. Even a subject this obscure gets knowledge I didn't have. THANX