Tom Horn

[imjin138]

This morning whilr getting my daughters ready for school I was watching the History channel and they had a program on called 'Cowboys and Outlaws' This episode was on Tom Horn.

I have read a few books about him and saw a few more documentaries and naturally the Steve McQueen movie. I have always found Horn a fascinating character. From cowboy/Scout to Lawman/Stock detective to killer. This program was actually pretty good they had Chip Carlson, Paul Hutton and Roger McGrath as the sources and they kept to the facts as much as possible.

I know in th emovie he used an 1876 in 40/60 but in real life he used a Model 94 in 30/30. One of the statements made was that he and other men like him kept up with technology and that he was a 'gun guy' and kept his tools in working order and clean. Which makes sense since he bet his life on them.


It is pretty clear he was a killer some 17 men at least with the Pinkertons and possibly up to 40 all together with the cattle barons. and he kept his mouth shut even when on trial, while his employers left him to hang.

They re-did his trial in the early 90's I beleive and he was found not guilty, but I am sure it didn't do him to much good. The evidence against him was circumstantial at best and would not have held up in a trial today but on the frontier it was good enough for the jury.


I still enjoy reading anything new about him, and just watched the movie a few Sundays ago.

Well that s all for this morning, take care.

 

[Iggy]

And then there's fellers like me that had family that were friends of Tom that know a little bit more than what the History Channel told.

I knew a neighbor who when I was a kid told us over and over that he was paid by the "Cattle Barons" to feed, and train a fast horse and tie it up behind the jail on the day Tom was to be hanged.

No one ever saw Tom's face the day he was hanged. He was already hooded when they brought him to the gallows.

That night the horse was gone and this feller swore til his dyin' day that Tom died of old age in the Sandwich (Hawaiian) Islands.

Another neighbor of ours sang a hymn at Tom's request at the hanging, but the request was made before Tom was brought out, and though he stood on the gallows when he sang, Tom never spoke.


Now this brings up the question of who did they hang that day but no answer has ever been offered.

The guy that fed the horse told me he thought that it was a bum they scrounged up in the UPRR yards the night before the hanging. Makes you wonder what they used to drug him sufficiently for him to remain placid until the trap was sprung

They also didn't mention the feud between the Millers and the Nickles, and that one of the Miller boys left the country right after the shooting and never returned. The TV program mentioned that Tom stayed at Nickle place from time to time and they were pretty familiar with Tom's quirks.

One of my relatives was told by a Miller about what really happened.

In the History Channel presentation, they showed a picture of Tom in jail and a horse hair head stall and reins he braided while there.

Tom gave them to an uncle of mine and it is still lurking in the family.

Chip Carlson and I have visited about some of this stuff and he is inclined to agree with the things I have mentioned.
He said in that program that there was still considerable doubt that Tom killed Willy but there ain't much doubt among the old timers that lived there at the time.

One of my old bosses on the Highway Patrol was on the last round up of the Swan Livestock Co when he was a kid.

He said that Tom would come in late at night and grab some grub at the chuck wagon from time to time.

Tom would just appear out of the dark, grab a meal and coffee. Never sat down and stood with his back to the chuck wagon, when he was done, he was gone.

Tom was paid by the "cattlemen" to see that none of their stock was "rounded up" with the Swan stuff by "accident"

He told me that Tom was one spooky SOB. He never spoke and no one would speak to him. Tom was a spook and he did everything he could maintain that image to keep the cowhands off balance.

Reminds me of another "fabled lawman" that did the same thing here in Wyoming while I was in law enforcement. I had dealings with him and I would never turn my back on him for any reason. He had the same rep and killed a fellow cop to enhance it.
He got off on the charge of murder, but there ain't no doubt he killed the guy.

One of our cow hands when I was a kid was on the jury that convicted Tom. I didn't learn that until last summer. He had been a lawman at the time Tom was doing his thing. I knew him well enough that if being on that jury was something he was comfortable about he would have told me about it. A Deputy in the county on the jury? Kinda makes you wonder........


The old west ain't quite dead yet!!

 

[Hunt200]

Wow Iggy that is really cool!!

 

[feralmerril]

I have a great book, "A cowboy detective" by Charles A. Siringo. Siringo was a pinkerton man for 22 years from about 1884 to about 1906. It`s a huge book of 519 pages. Siringo shows a picture of Horn in his book and calls him "Tim Corn". Their paths crossed working for pinkerton and Siringo wasnt complimentry of him in his book. I also liked reading everything I could about Horn.
I am a avid student of western history for many years. I think the book is one of the best, and siringo rubbed shoulders of most the outlaws and lawmen we all have read about, and writes his opinion of many of them.

 

[imjin138]

Thats a pretty cool post Iggy thank you, I drove throuh Wyoming once and would love to go back there for a vacation.

 

[Iggy]

Thats a pretty cool post Iggy thank you, I drove throuh Wyoming once and would love to go back there for a vacation.

Hell, there ain't nuthin' in Wyoming but miles and miles of nuthin but miles and miles of nuthin'.

Don't you be tellin' nobody nuthin' differ'nt neither!!

BTW Willy was killed in those blue mountains you can see in the background at the far left of the picture and that big mountain (Laramie Peak) is close to 80 miles away.

The picture is of a portion of the family ranch where I grew up. The "holding grounds" for round up I mentioned took place was a few miles from where this picture was taken.
I now manage another of the ranches 30 miles beyond the mountain in the back ground.

 

[feralmerril]

Iggy, I bet you are referring to the Ed cantrell case that Gerry Spence defended?

 

[Bat Guano]

Joe LeFors lived to a ripe old age a few miles down the road from me; died of general meanness around 1947 or so. Lots of so-called 'history'--isn't.

Read up on the Cattle War and Joe Cantrell if you want to get a feel for the twists and turns of 'justice' in WY. You can still get away with murder now and then depending on the circumstances.

 

[Iggy]

Iggy, I bet you are referring to the Ed cantrell case that Gerry Spence defended?

Yup! He was just like a rattle snake. He was on the Patrol for a couple of years when I first went on. He left under questionable circumstances.
After his little "fracas" in Rock Springs, he became a range detective looking for modern day rustlers. Black pickup and no headlights at night kind of a thing. He didn't quite have as strong of backers or quite a loyal supporters as Tom and that didn't last long. He left the state not long after he quit being a range detective. I don't know, and I don't want to know anymore about him than I already do.

 

[feralmerril]

Iggy, did you ever know or hear of Dewey Van Winkle? I understand he was sheriff of the county Jackson is in, probley in the 30s,or 40s. I knew him when I worked for the park service in the grand tetons in 1961.
Later I worked in the movie studios and ran into a wrangler and even a old western movie producer that knew him. I was told he was also a heck of a rodeo rider etc. I estimate he was born in the 1890s. He told me of driveing cattle in the park before there was roads there etc.
One of the stores in Jackson had his colt saa and belt on display. Someone else told me Deweys wife committed suicide with it. He was a tall rough old gezzer of about 70 years old, and hard hearing when I knew him. He kind of sepecialised as the park plumber back then. I also knew his brother Johnny.

 

[Iggy]

feralmerril

I have heard the name, but I don't know anything more about him.

A lot of the old law men back in that day were tough old geezers, present company excepted of course. *G* I was just a smooth-back colt back then.

 

[Wyo]

If you really want to stir up some discussion in this state, just mention Tom Horn, the Johnson County War or the Spring Creek Raid (cattlemen vs sheepherders in the Big Horn Basin). The interest remains high because many of us are related to people who participated in one or another of those debacles. At the very least, if we grew up here, we knew people who did. I grew up in the northern part of the state and learned early to be very careful when speaking of these subjects to people I didn't know. Might turn out they had relatives involved. There remains much to be learned on these events even today. My former law partner will have a new book out this spring on the Johnson County War, and there is a lot of stuff in the manuscript that I didn't know before.

By the way, the Wyoming Supreme Court heard the Tom Horn appeal and issued a decision of nearly 100 pages. That decision recites the evidence in considerable detail and makes an interesting read. I know that just before they filed McQueen's version of "Tom Horn" the movie company asked the Governor to issue a posthumous pardon to Horn - they figured it would make good PR. The Gov. told them he would be happy to do so - all Horn needed to do was show up in the office and ask for it!

 

[feralmerril]

Iggy, I am a wisconsin kid that came west first working in yosemite in 1960, then the tetons in 61. Born in 41. I read everything I could on the west, its history and guns since I could read. I have been blessed meeting some of whats left of the old timers through the years. I always thought I was born a 100 years too late!
By a huge coincidence, I found my wifes step mother is the great great grand daughter of John doyle lee. (The only person exicuted for his part of the mountain meadows massicure. Rigthously so, I might add) Then a few months ago we had a big family gathering at my stepdaughters house. She is engaged (we hope) to a guy whos mother is the great great grandaughter of one of the orphans that survived said massicure! The two old women sat there telling each other of the connection, and it was strange! So, if the two have a kid, the kid would have a ancester on each side of the massicure!
History can sure be funny at times!

 

[Iggy]

What Wyo says about Wyoming is so true. I am a rancher in Wyoming. We produce a lot of beef every year.
I know it is probably silly, but I am the only member of the family that absolutely refuses to join the Wyoming Stock-growers Association.

The present organization has no resemblance to the old Cattleman's association of the past. Today's organization serves a worthy and beneficial cause for beef producers in the state today, but I come from a family of homesteaders that had to fight the "big boys" tooth and nail for water and the right to survive back then, and the bitterness runs deep and long.

Through perseverance and plain old bulldog stubbornness and court battles with soon to be Governor's and Senators, we survived and grew into one of the biggest ranches in the state.

The Stock-growers Association is an outgrowth of the old Cattleman's organization. Great grand kids of the old cattle barons are now the big herd bulls of the present day organization. It is now headed by one of my cousins.

Each year, he pays the Association membership dues for the ranch that I run, and it pisses me off to no end.
It is kind of funny we are now our old enemy, but being the grizzled old fart that I am, I can't forget the Associations roots or it's past.
I remember the stories, my grand parents and the old hired hands told about the old days and it isn't that easy to disregard.

As silly as it is, this ol coot ain't a gonna be one of them " Association sumbitches" now way, no how!!

 

[jag312]

I sure would be proud to own this gun.

 

[bmhiii]

Great thread, thanks for everybody's input, especially Iggy. Iggy, thanks for all the info and stories you've shared with us. I really appreciate it.

For those reading and posting, any good books to recommend on Tom Horn and the rest fo what has been discussed?

Thanks in advance,

 

[Hunt200]

I will say it again, Iggy that is cool!! You are one of the rare breeds that stands up for what is right. I applaud you sir!

 

[Sebago Son]

"Keep Your Nerve Sam, 'Cause I'm Gonna Keep Mine....."

 

[Iggy]

the Spring Creek Raid (cattlemen vs sheepherders in the Big Horn Basin)

This rifle belonged to my wife's great uncle. The bead on the front sight is nearly worn off from being carried in a saddle scabbard. He went from Missouri to Montana at the turn of the last century. He worked for a cow outfit up there for a while. He came home suddenly and would never talk much about what went on except that he got into a tangle with some "sheepers" in Wyoming, and had to get out of there.

My wife's Granddad showed me the rifle when we went back to Missouri to visit them right after we were married. It had been in a closet untouched for more than 60 years. I had a fit and insisted on cleaning and oiling it up before I left their place.

About a month later, he sent me the rifle. He said I was the only one that showed any interest in the old gun and I would get it when he died anyway so I might as well have it and enjoy it now rather than later.

It is one of my prize possessions.

Another tale about one of Wyoming's old outlaws.

http://home.bresnan.net/~buflerchip/gunsight.htm

This is the gun ol Bill kept under the cash register at his tourist trap store in Laramie.

 

[Onomea]

I have a great book, "A cowboy detective" by Charles A. Siringo. ....

That's a great tip, Feral. Thanks.

From a bookseller's website:

Book Description: University of Nebraska Press, 1988. Paperback. Book Condition: New. 128mm x 36mm x 204mm. We are no longer able to guarantee delivery by Christmas. After years of cowboying, Charles A. Siringo had settled down to store-keeping in Caldwell, Kansas, when a blind phrenologist, traveling through, took the measure of his "mule head" and told him that he was "cut out" for detective work. Thereupon, Siringo joined the Pinkerton National Detective Agency in 1886.

A Cowboy Detective chronicles his twenty-two years as an undercover operative in wilder parts of the West, where he rode with the lawless, using more stratagems and guises than Sherlock Holmes to bring them to justice and escaping violent death more often than Dick Tracy. He survived the labor riots at Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, in 1892 (his testimony helped convict eighteen union leaders), hounded moonshiners in the Appalachians, and chased Butch Cassidy's Wild Bunch.

Once described as "a small wiry man, cold and steady as a rock" and "born without fear," Charlie Siringo became a favorite of high-ups in the Pinkerton organization. Nevertheless, the Pinkertons, ever sensitive to criticism, went to court to block publication of Siringo's book. Frank Morn, in his introduction to this Bison Books edition, discusses the changes that resulted from two years of litigation. Finally published in 1912 without Pinkerton in the title or the text, A Cowboy Detective has Siringo working for the "Dickensen Detective Agency," and meeting up with the likes of "Tim Corn," whom every western buff will recognize. The deeper truth of Siringo's book remains.

As J. Frank Dobie wrote, "His cowboys and gunmen were not of Hollywood and folklore. He was an honest reporter."

Frank Morn is a professor of criminal justice at Illinois State University and author of The Eye That Never Sleeps: A History of thePinkerton National Detective Agency (1982).