Be careful doing trigger mods

[ChrisKalan]

@Ibyte_40...welcome! The board is great because great people share thoughtful and well thought out ideas. Keep on sharing.

The Sigma rocks!

 

[leejack]

Ibyte 40, you are very welcome my friend!

Not long ago, Big Lee santioned the Sigma and M&P sections of this forum. It didn't take long and now we have over 100 members in the sigma club.

To all new members: Here are a few polls in which you can vote and/or post a comment. We have allot of members with tons of experience. Please call upon them to answer any questions you might have, I do.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-sigma-pistols/136185-sigma-club-demographic.html

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-sigma-pistols/137177-trigger-work.html

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-sigma-pistols/136837-will-sd-series-replace-sigma.html

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-sigma-pistols/133473-another-fun-sigma-poll.html

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-sigma-pistols/136118-will-sigma-rebate-extended.html

Post away my friends! Share your stories and experience with us.

Lee

 

[Backon4]

Just a FYI my 98 Sigma only came with what I assume is an outer spring. Either that or Mr. Smith removed the inner when I sent it to him. Either way I took mine a little further now that I have a M&P for daily carry. I plan on torture testing my mod when I get back to TN in August and will make a final judgement as to the worthiness of my mods once I finish my testing. If I have any failures at all I will consider the mod a failure and move on to a different configuration. Once I find "the one" I will leave it alone. Like I said though this is no longer my primary handgun and will be a "backup" in the SHTF scenario.

 

[Jbradley]

Went Ahead And Worked On My Sigma

I went ahead and made some changes to my Sigma .40. Working one step at a time and test firing between steps I removed the pigtail spring and took 1/8" off the inner sear spring. I polished the sear until it looks like a mirror. I also polished the trigger connector bar where it bears on the frame, the sear holder and (very carefully) the sear ramp on the frame. Finally, I replaced the striker spring with the Wolff 3.5 pound spring. The trigger breaks at about 9 pounds as close as I can measure it and is smooth as silk. I've put 200 rounds through it with no FTF's or reset problems using Remington FMJ range ammo and have been able to increase the range where I can keep all my shots on a 9" plate from 10 yards out to 20 yards. If I work on my trigger and breath control I should be able to push that out to 25 yards. Over all, I'm thrilled with the way it came out.

 

[speedshooter]

I went ahead and made some changes to my Sigma .40. Working one step at a time and test firing between steps I removed the pigtail spring and took 1/8" off the inner sear spring. I polished the sear until it looks like a mirror. I also polished the trigger connector bar where it bears on the frame, the sear holder and (very carefully) the sear ramp on the frame. Finally, I replaced the striker spring with the Wolff 3.5 pound spring. The trigger breaks at about 9 pounds as close as I can measure it and is smooth as silk. I've put 200 rounds through it with no FTF's or reset problems using Remington FMJ range ammo and have been able to increase the range where I can keep all my shots on a 9" plate from 10 yards out to 20 yards. If I work on my trigger and breath control I should be able to push that out to 25 yards. Over all, I'm thrilled with the way it came out.

Pretty much the same as i did on my 40ve..less the striker spring.. i had it installed but had a couple ftf's so the stock one is back in..other than that it came out really well i have at least 500 rds since and not a problem.

 

[mawguy]

I know that I am not as smart as the engineers that design things. I guess that says it all.

 

[DWinter]

I'm careful when I give engineers complete trust especially after some designs I've seen over the years. Aircraft, boats, weapons, building and bridges. If you don't believe me, watch the History channels "Engineering Disasters" show one time. They are people just like the rest of us and can be just as prone to failure. If this wasn't the case, The Navy wouldn't have sent me to the F-14 Readiness Improvement Program to work with design engineers and make recommendations from fleet sailors for changing designs that we see are inadequate in real world and combat applications. Trust me, some of the greatest inventions and improvements to them did not come from engineers. My point is, don't ever stop trying to improve things, youself included, just do it safely.

 

[mawguy]

Good observation DWinter... I was commenting on how sad it is that even though engineers aren't perfect, I am still not as smart as them-

 

[rmcky]

I got serious about playing with mine yesterday and have a couple of observations. I studied the mechanism for a while and came to the conclusion that the grittiness was coming from a different area than I originall thought. My sear block had machining marks on all sides. I thought my grit was coming from where the sear pressed against the plastic. I'm sure some of it was, but I found more friction between the sear and the aluminum holder. Like the above poster, I didn't stop polishing until the entire sear assembly had a mirror finish. I was surprised to get it that nice.

Put it back together and was disappointed to find more grittiness. The trigger was noticably smoother, but still had enough grit to bother me. Took it down again and discovered my grit was coming from the two sear springs rubbing together. Perhaps I bent them during one of my attempts, don't know?

Anyway, unlike the above poster, I removed the outer spring, since the inner fit better in the indention in the sear block and was the stronger of the two. I've read of both success and problems with this approach and haven't tested mine at the range yet, but my trigger is very nice now. It was so smooth that I pulled out my Glock 17 for comparison. I believe my Sigma now has the better trigger. If this works out, I'll be one happy camper. If not, I'll add the ballpoint pen spring or simply try to find a stronger replacement spring. I was surprised at how much grittiness resounded from those two springs. They can't compress more than a 16th of an inch, but they surely do transfer a lot of grit to the trigger.

I'll let you guys know how this works out. My Sigma has around 1600 flawless rounds through it, so I may have a chance of success, since it's been a good shooter. Still just a range queen, but I've always enjoyed it.

 

[blastfact]

The magic gritty S&W feel was in the slot that the pins run in on the sear.

 

[DWinter]

Good observation DWinter... I was commenting on how sad it is that even though engineers aren't perfect, I am still not as smart as them-

Me neither by a long shot, but I do have a (thankfully) God given talent to be able to work with my hands and enough good sense (at least most of the time) to know my limitations. Those combined with some of Uncle Sam's training and more importantly some armorer friends I can ask advice of, definately makes limited firearm mods somthing I can work with. Like I tell my son, "It really is about who you know"

 

[rmcky]

Just got back from the range trying out my trigger mods. Another 200 flawless rounds with no signs of problems whatsoever. I think I'll be leaving my Sigma this way with only a single spring on the sear.

There was another guy there with a Sigma 9 like mine and he was amazed at the difference. Quite frankly, I was, too. I didn't remember mine ever being as gritty as his. Like some of you, he expressed concerns about removing factory springs. I told him I didn't blame him, because I was hesitant myself, however nothing I've done can't be easily reversed. Some have complained of problems after doing exactly what I did, so I'm sure it won't be successful on every Sigma.

Took my Glock 17 with me today, as well. Shot a hundred rounds through it and experienced yet another jam. Thought I was gonna use it for SD, but I'm not sure I can depend on it when the SHTF. Funny thing is, my Sigma costs half what the Glock did and it's never jamed in 1800 rounds. Heck, even if it did, I could buy another for the same cash and have a backup. So far, I'm not as impressed with the Glock as the fanboys think I should be. To be honest, I think my Sigma trigger is as good or better than the Glock now.

 

[blastfact]

Last night I got around to refacing the sear and striker. And also took about .0020 off the top of the sear. It now breaks cleaner and easier not mention quicker reset.

I did a 3', 5', and 10' drop test on oak hardwood floor with no padding and also on the concrete driveway with one mictrofiber towel as padding. I also did 3' to 4' waiste high flip and throw test into bare dirt and grass. I mag was in the pistol loaded, NONE CHAMBERED!!!! It never had a strike. Trigger and striker held firm. The polish on the pistol got beat up a tad, but nothing I can't polish out.

Can't find a reason yet to get a SD or M&P 9mm. The Sigma just keeps taking tune after tune. And getting better and better.

Now if I could just get back to shooting as good as I was before the doc changed my meds.

 

[rmcky]

I did a 3', 5', and 10' drop test on oak hardwood floor with no padding and also on the concrete driveway with one mictrofiber towel as padding. I also did 3' to 4' waiste high flip and throw test into bare dirt and grass. I mag was in the pistol loaded, NONE CHAMBERED!!!! It never had a strike. Trigger and striker held firm. The polish on the pistol got beat up a tad, but nothing I can't polish out.

Blastfact, you really should quit abusing your Sigma like that. If you'll take a minute to study the safety mechanisms built into your Sigma, you'd realize there is absolutely no way the firing pin can contact the primer unless the trigger is pulled. The firing pin safety is twofold and some. The firing pin cannot go forward enough to hit the primer, unless a bunch of things happen in unison. First, the trigger has to be pulled properly releasing the trigger safety, then the trigger bar has to depress the firing pin safety plunger on the slide, then the sear has to release. Unless all of those occur in order, the firing pin cannot move forward. Additionally, S&W beats Glock by adding another spring on the firing pin that positively locks the firing pin in the rearward position, until the sear breaks. IMHO, you could hit the muzzel end of a cocked and loaded Sigma in a vise with a sledge hammer and never get it to fire, so I think you're beating up your poor Sigma for nothing. S&W designed the Sigma with one of the best passive safety systems I've ever seen. If Plaxico had been carrying a Sigma, he'd still be catching balls in the NFL. Unmodified Sigmas wouldn't have experienced a problem like that. I believe the Sigmas are about the safest passive safety guns made. Save the wear and tear, stick with trigger improvements. The rest of the gun is more than competent. The only other plastic gun safety that I think might be slightly better is the SA-XD series and their safety system might be a little overbuilt, although quite impressive in action. They're backstrap safety system locks the whole gun up until engaged, slide and all. I like their system, but I can also see where some might have problems losing that much control. Kinda like the mag safety systems some folks hate.

 

[blastfact]

Blastfact, you really should quit abusing your Sigma like that. If you'll take a minute to study the safety mechanisms built into your Sigma, you'd realize there is absolutely no way the firing pin can contact the primer unless the trigger is pulled. The firing pin safety is twofold and some. The firing pin cannot go forward enough to hit the primer, unless a bunch of things happen in unison. First, the trigger has to be pulled properly releasing the trigger safety, then the trigger bar has to depress the firing pin safety plunger on the slide, then the sear has to release. Unless all of those occur in order, the firing pin cannot move forward. Additionally, S&W beats Glock by adding another spring on the firing pin that positively locks the firing pin in the rearward position, until the sear breaks. IMHO, you could hit the muzzel end of a cocked and loaded Sigma in a vise with a sledge hammer and never get it to fire, so I think you're beating up your poor Sigma for nothing. S&W designed the Sigma with one of the best passive safety systems I've ever seen. If Plaxico had been carrying a Sigma, he'd still be catching balls in the NFL. Unmodified Sigmas wouldn't have experienced a problem like that. I believe the Sigmas are about the safest passive safety guns made. Save the wear and tear, stick with trigger improvements. The rest of the gun is more than competent. The only other plastic gun safety that I think might be slightly better is the SA-XD series and their safety system might be a little overbuilt, although quite impressive in action. They're backstrap safety system locks the whole gun up until engaged, slide and all. I like their system, but I can also see where some might have problems losing that much control. Kinda like the mag safety systems some folks hate.

I don't have a issue one with making sure a mod firearm is safe. I will drop test, throw and other wise beat snot out of a mod firearm when I've took my stones and other tools to one.

 

[Offshore1V]

Spring Wear

My Sigma was made in 08'- & only had about 50 rounds through it. The trigger was tight, so I did the trigger mods my self- removed the pigtail & the outer sear spring. Keeping them safe in case I start to get Failure to Fire as the round count increases.

It seems that each gun really has its own personality as far as machining tolerances and spring tension rates. Some take less spring and shoot and re-cock perfectly with light or less springs, while others really need heavier spring pressures to continue to work properly.

So far my round count is only 100 or so- so rounds and time will tell if the one remaining spring in my sigma- the inner sear spring- weakens over time to the point of becoming unreliable.

As someone who has raced many, many forms of motor vehicles I am all to familair with springs actually wearing out to the point of becoming much weaker and delivering a really mushy ride feel, and failing to hold spring preload settings.

With racing suspensions- as the spring wears- you can begin to compensate SOMEWHAT for this with your Shock's hydralic compression and rebound dampening adjustments- and by frequently re-adjusting your spring preload. However, after a certain point the spring is shot- and must be replaced.

In the Sigma- we have no dampening or spring preload adjusters, so those of us who have lightened triggers by removing all but the single inner sear spring must keep spring wear in mind.

This is especially true if you shoot your single spring Sigma alot- as the more compressions on the spring the faster its spring rate (strength) will be reduced.

If you plan on taking your Sigma into battle- it would probably be wise to re-install the factory set-up, or at least make sure you keep a fresh inner sear spring in it if you choose to run this set-up for work-carry purposes.

 

[tgray83]

My spring mod experiments...

Now, at 27 years old, I'm no expert gunsmith, but after doing plenty of homework, studying parts diagrams, and relying on my knowledge of mechanical engineering and physics, I felt comfortable performing mods on my own 40VE. Mods produced interesting results- most beneficial, a few not so.
As many Sigma modders have done, I removed the outer, larger spring of the two coil springs located inside the sear assembly. Seemed to lighten the trigger pull slightly, but not enough to justify a possible warranty void or misfire, FTF, etc.
Second, I removed the factory trigger reset (name?) spring located above the actual trigger, clipped about 1/8" off, reshaped a catch hook, and reinstalled. Reason being: At that point I wasn't aware of any replacement springs for that particular one, and still cant seem to find one with a lighter pull. Result: Significant improvement and lightening of trigger pull! Just a lot of work to get it there.
Third, I removed the pig tail spring, but was not pleased with what I experienced once I had put some rounds through at the range. The striker failed to catch when cocked, so no shooting was possible until I put the pig tail back in, and stretched the remaining coil spring a bit to ensure the striker catch would fully extend and hold back striker when cocked. Twice, the trigger failed to reset, but did once re-cocked. This may actually have been caused by my previous mod to trigger reset spring... but it lightened the helloutta the pull. Fixed easily by re-compressing spring a bit repeatedly with needle nose pliers.
I don't have a gauge to know exactly what my pull is at after my mods, but it feels soooo smooth, and is muuuch lighter than stock condition. So, all in all I would recommend removing outer coil spring, finding a reset spring with lighter pull (or if ballsy, doing what I did), and let the pig tail spring stay where it is.
Remember, most of these mods can be undone, and if not, its a cheap pistol anyway. Best of luck in your experimentation...