Dual optics

[arizona98tj]

I could only afford to outfit one of my M&P's so the bigger one got it.

I have the Burris FastFireII set up for 0~25 yards. 25 yds and up, the ACOG is used. I do enjoy this setup. The Millet DMS-1 I was using was moved to my 15-22. Fits just fine.

 

[Jubz]

Here's my setup. I already had the reflex, so picked up a scope on a QD mount, got a slave mount for the scope and mounted the reflex on that. The Troy BUIS's have a lower profile than Magpuls and I was able to fit them under the scope positioned at an ideal eye relief for me. It's nice being able to quick-disconnect the dual optics and just run with the iron sights.

*TRUGLO Red Dot Multi-reticle/Dual Color Series
*NcStar Mark III Single Weaver Slave Mount
*NcStar Mark III Tactial Scope 3-9x42 P4 Sniper
*Troy Micro Folding BattleSights

 

[Griffy19]

*TRUGLO Red Dot Multi-reticle/Dual Color Series
*NcStar Mark III Single Weaver Slave Mount
*NcStar Mark III Tactial Scope 3-9x42 P4 Sniper
*Troy Micro Folding BattleSights

Have you had any problems with that Mark III? I've heard a lot of bad things and can't decide if I want to try my luck and get one yet.

 

[Jubz]

*TRUGLO Red Dot Multi-reticle/Dual Color Series
*NcStar Mark III Single Weaver Slave Mount
*NcStar Mark III Tactial Scope 3-9x42 P4 Sniper
*Troy Micro Folding BattleSights

Have you had any problems with that Mark III? I've heard a lot of bad things and can't decide if I want to try my luck and get one yet.

No problems or issues at all, great scope for the money.
I'd rather spend the big $$ on high quality gear for when I pick up it's big brother, M&P 15 or something similar.

 

[arizona98tj]

Jubz,

What distance do you have the red dot zeroed at?

 

[Jubz]

Jubz,

What distance do you have the red dot zeroed at?

I've got the green dot (I can see it easier and set at lowest level re: brightness/size) zeroed at 15 yds for now. Probably will zero it at 25 yds once I get to an outdoor range and zero my scope to 100 yds.

 

[arizona98tj]

As high as the green dot sits, piggy backed on the other optic, that has to have some interesting POI shifts when you deviate too far from the zero.

My shooting buddy has a Dr. optic on top of his ACOG. He sees those POI shifts when he gets away from the red dots zeroed distance. Breaking cheek weld to get up that high doesn't help very much either....it's more of a chin weld actually.

 

[Jubz]

As high as the green dot sits, piggy backed on the other optic, that has to have some interesting POI shifts when you deviate too far from the zero.

My shooting buddy has a Dr. optic on top of his ACOG. He sees those POI shifts when he gets away from the red dots zeroed distance. Breaking cheek weld to get up that high doesn't help very much either....it's more of a chin weld actually.

You're absolutely right, really finicky with the green dot so high. I see inches of differences on the target with range increases of 10 yds.

Overall I'm not liking it and will probably take it off the slave mount and put on the rail at a 45 degree like yours. Better to keep it low for optimal quick acquisitions that are more forgiving re: where it's been zeroed.

 

[Jubz]

Didn't like the red dot slave mounted on top of the scope; too high of an angle with significant POI shifts when I deviated too far from the zero as arizona98tj had mentioned. So picked up a 45 degree mount and positioned the red dot sight to keep my rear Troy BUIS and maintain good eye relief with the scope.

Nice being able to cant the rifle from scope to red dot while keeping my cheek weld. It seems with the red dot being mounted further down the rail, seeing the red dot is easier while both eyes are open.

Also nice to quick disconnect the scope, flip up the BUIS's and easily switch between the iron sights and red dot. I'll head out to the range soon to zero the red dot and see if the POI's are more tighter when I deviate from zero. Lessoned learned for me: red dot sights close as possible to the bore axis is a good thing regarding POA and POI.

[Added some better daytime shots]:

 

[gcsniper]

2-7x 26mm with buriis fastfire on daniel defense mount. works great.

 

[Fr1endlyF1re]

How does the Daniels mount line up with the bore line? Im guessing its the one oclock offset mount.

 

[Rustpot]

How does the Daniels mount line up with the bore line? Im guessing its the one oclock offset mount.

If you put the sight on the side away from your body (right side of the rifle for a righty shooter) and roll the rifle about the bore axis you end up with the sight about the same height as the irons would be. With the rifle in this position you're also going to have the bullet drop vertically in relation to the sight.

That's why the offset mount is so nice to use. You maintain the same cheek weld, gripping the main tube of the handguard and have a sight very close to the bore line. As opposed to one sitting on top of the scope that requires you to lift your head and apply more thought as to where the bullet will impact given the height-over-bore significance.

Mounting the dot on the body side of the rifle also requires you to move your head and rely on the parallax of the sight to keep your shot on target since your head is no longer "fixed" in relation to the rifle as it is with a solid cheek weld.

 

[arizona98tj]

Jubz,

I started out with my Burris optic mounted off of the forward rail, like you did. I quickly discovered, upon running through my usual practice drills, that I was having trouble quickly finding the red dot. This was most obvious when I was bringing the rifle to bear on the target from either the high or low ready position. I found myself hunting around for the dot and so wasting a half second or more. When you only have a 1.5 second par time, a half second is significant. Once I moved mine back to the charging handle area, I regained the lost time and things worked much better.

I see that you are running backup irons and so this would probably be a deal breaker for you.

 

[Fr1endlyF1re]

As far as I can tell the Daniels 1 oclock and the NCStar 45 degree and other similar offset rails are not designed for use with sights, they are more for accesories like lights and lasers. With that being said, I have and use a similar sight set up on my 15/22. There are some that are designed to keep the sight in perfect alignment with the bore like this one

Trijicon Rail Offset Adapter for RMR - eBay (item 310272381615 end time Dec-19-10 07:46:49 PST)

Without the correct alignment the sight will only be zeroed at the distance its sighted for, any distance closer or farther the windage will be off and you will have to mentally compensate for that. Not a huge deal if you can get used to making that adjustment on the fly.

 

[arizona98tj]

What you said is correct.....unless you position the firearm such that the X and Y axis are true with the world, so to speak. You will have complex adjustments and shooting solutions if they are not. As mounted, LEFT will not only move left but also UP, UP will move UP and also RIGHT, and so on.

What I don't see is how Trijicon's mount negates the above problems nor how it improves the down range behavior when shooting distances no longer equals sight zeroed distance.

 

[grimreaper21]

As far as I can tell the Daniels 1 oclock and the NCStar 45 degree and other similar offset rails are not designed for use with sights, they are more for accesories like lights and lasers. With that being said, I have and use a similar sight set up on my 15/22. There are some that are designed to keep the sight in perfect alignment with the bore like this one

Trijicon Rail Offset Adapter for RMR - eBay (item 310272381615 end time Dec-19-10 07:46:49 PST)

Without the correct alignment the sight will only be zeroed at the distance its sighted for, any distance closer or farther the windage will be off and you will have to mentally compensate for that. Not a huge deal if you can get used to making that adjustment on the fly.

is that daniel defense in the post above yours one that is considered in alignment with the bore?
how many rail spaces do these take up? I think i have about 5 empty spaces before i run into my rings.

 

[Fr1endlyF1re]

The Trijicon mount moves the offset out and down keeping the sight center and bore center teh same distance and on the same axis, essentially it just "rolls" the mount position to the side where the Daniels moves the mount position out and up, the NCStar and other similar sights move it out and slightly up to get the 45 degree. I use the Trijicon on my Sabre Defense AR and it works flawlessly, it is in the natural position and the only adjustment needed is hold over for far and near. I just put the NCS on my 15/22 to save a little $ and it definately is not on the true bore axis, I have it zeroed at 25yds, running drills I have to compensate R or L depending on my target being in or out of the 25yrd zero. My hold over is pretty natural and I dont have to think about that, my problem is when I switch between the AR15 and the 15/22, I need to set them up identical so everything is the same and can become second nature no matter which weapon I pick up.

 

[Jubz]

Shot off about 1K rounds today to try out the new location of my red dot; removed from on top of the scope to down onto the rail with a 45 degree mount. This made a huge difference re: POA and POI, much more forgiving when my POA deviated from the red dot's zero. No issues with rotating the rifle or having the red dot down in the hand guard area.

I was having much more fun with the red dot than the scope. Actually I just took off the scope and rotated between the BUI's and the red dot (green actually, easier for me to see).

Been thinking about getting a 5.56; will definitely outfit it with an Eotech holo before pondering about a scope.

 

[Jubz]

Latest configuration, Sightmark 4x32 scope (great eye relief) with offset red/green dot by rear BUIS.

 

[gcsniper]

How does the Daniels mount line up with the bore line? Im guessing its the one oclock offset mount.

Lines up great. I am very happy with it. I use it for shots up to 50yrds and the scope for shots from about 40yrds to 100. The matches I do only go up to 100yrds.