Looking at a Widow's Guns Tomorrow

[redlevel]

The couple has been members of my Church for 20-25 years. I taught with the lady until she retired. Good friends of the family, etc. Her husband was a retired Lt. Col. in the Army. She has a daughter and son-in-law, as well as a brother-in-law. She and my Mama get their hair done together. She told my mother early this week that she wanted me to "look at Jim's guns." I called her today and set up an appointment tomorrow (Saturday) morning. Her daughter and s-i-l will be there, cleaning out a motor-home to be sold. I asked about how many guns, and she said "about 20", evidently all long guns. I recall Jim telling me once that he had purchased a Garand and a 1911A1. Apparently, the handguns have already been "distributed" to family members. She said one handgun was in the house, another in her car. I assume she intends to keep these. Another, I think, had gone to their daughter. She told me on the phone that she just wanted to know if any were particularly valuable, so she would not be taken advantage of.

I really don't know how to approach this. I'm guessing there will be mostly common hunting guns, although as far as I know, Jim wasn't a hunter. I wouldn't be surprised to see things like Marlin 60s, Winchester 870s, Remington 1100s, maybe Marlin or Winchester .30-30s. I also wouldn't be surprised to see one or two gems, like a FN Browning, or an old Marlin 39. I don't know if they are mostly guns Jim accumulated, or if they are mostly family guns. I'll just have to wait and see.

I guess the thing to do is make a list, take some pictures, and come up with good price estimates based on research on this and some other forums. I told her that she could get a much better price by selling them one-by-one rather than taking them to a dealer or broker for a package deal. I figure I will try to come up with a good wholesale value on more common guns, and if there happens to be some very desirable (not necessarily rare) pieces, advise her to let me or someone else help her try to get the best price.

I really feel sort of awkward, because there are "men-folks" in her family who could do this. She said her son-in-law and bro-in-law had gotten the guns together and made a list, and for some reason had moved them from her house to a shop. I don't know why she asked me to do this. Second opinion, I guess. I told her that they certainly need to be in a secure area, and she said she has an alarm system that the includes the shop.

I'll let y'all know if I find a Registered Magnum stuck back in a corner somewhere.

 

[mg357]

good luck redlevel

 

[Pointman]

If it were me, I'd take a blue book and price them out of that telling her that these prices are generally low retail. If she just wants to get rid of them, tell her a dealer will give her wholesale prices that could be 20-50% below retail. If she is not in a hurry, let a dealer do consignment sales for her/family.

 

[RdrBill]

Sir.
Dealers make a good living off of widows and orphans. If you are a family friend, tell her so.
You can make her more money by selling them to friends of the husband and other good folks. It may take longer, but she will get a fairer price for them.
Dealer will double down on what he offers. You come up with a price and be a honest man about it, you will make her more money.
It should not be hard to find his old friends or gun club buddies or hunting pals. Lot of them would buy an old friends gun.
Bill@Yuma

 

[truckemup97]

Sounds like you've got a pretty good plan. Make a list and give her a reasonable price range. She may be asking you because she doesn't trust SIL or BIL, or both. You are a neutral party with nothing to gain. She trusts you, and I'm betting with good reason. You'll do the right thing.

 

[rburg]

These are situations that are fraught with danger. The risk is hard feelings for everyone involved. Often the male family members have their own feelings on the subject, and just as often they're less than honorable.

Also be aware old coots (me included) accumulate massive quantities of gun related **** (also known as gun stuff.) If they're assembling the stuff in one place, take a look at the stuff, too. Often there is ammo that might indicate another gun (nothing to shoot the stuff you've found.)

Take a notebook and maybe even a digital camera. The process can take significant time if you're going to do it right. Every detail needs to be written down. And then do everyone a favor and list the items that should go with which gun. Stress the box needs to be preserved because it adds significant value to the gun. Often old guys keep ammo forever. The older the better (and the more valuable.)

Cheating widows and orphans is a time honored tradition. Everyone knows it. And all the orphans and widows think they're getting cheated regardless of the truth. And I've discovered widows break down into two distinct groups. The first feels the guns are just junk and not worth much. The others think anything their hubby had was gold. Letting sun shine on the reality is where sometimes hard feelings come into play.

Many of us old guys have been hunters. The ugly reality is we hauled our guns out into the weather, into briar patches, we got clumsy and fell down (not me, of course). We scratched our guns. Often rain came from the sky, but it didn't dampen our spirits. We kept on hunting anyway. and a time or two maybe a fleck of rust appeared before we could get them oiled. They may not be perfect because they were used as intended.

Rarely were guns that have been kept for a long time perfect. Sometimes wives don't know how gun collectors are about condition. To them, hubby's guns were all well cared for so anything less than the highest condition is unacceptable. But we also know old coots were sometimes given or sold guns from all kinds of sources. We all love bargains. Remember, condition ratings were designed for collectors, not users. Many times guns fall in the poor to moderate condition range. Wives and relatives don't want to hear that.

 

[gregintenn]

I know you'll be honest, and I've been in this situation berfore as well. Tell her what a dealer would try to get for each one, and explain to her that getting retail price for them is W_O_R_K. You should also explain any odd or extraordinary guns to her. After that, you can, with a clear conscience make her an offer; making it clear that the guns could be retailed for more. She might prefer for you to have them at a discount than to go through the time and trouble to retail them. As already mentioned, you could offer to help her get top dollar for one if you find a really desireable piece. Sounds like she trusts your judgement; and probably for good reason. If handled properly, these situations can pay off handsomely; even if you just leave with the feeling you helped someone in need.

 

[cass]

About five years after my niece became a widow, she asked that I take all of his guns and sell them for whatever I could get for them. I agreed - when I went over to her house to pick them up, she told me she had put them in the attic after he died. They(all rifles and shotguns)were in cases, in a hot/cold/humid attic for over five years. Ruined. I've never seen so much rust. I finally found a fellow that made her an offer. I assume he was after parts, as nothing there was safe to shoot. Sure hope your widow friend comes out better.

 

[Peter J.]

I suggest putting the guns up for auction on GunBroker or Auction Arms. That way the guns will sell for what they are worth at this period in time and economic situation and will help put down any feelings that the family was taken advantage of. Who ever manages the auctions for the family can take a 10-15 percent cut to cover their duties, which would be very fair.

 

[Beemer-mark]

Depending on GA state laws an Auction can be a good way to sell stuff if there is enough. Sometimes an auctioneer will put two or more estates together to generate enought items of interest.

A few years ago I did an interstate move (about my 7th or 8th) and we decided to downsize. I held an auction of mostly household goods but threw in a number of rifles and handguns I didn't want. I was amazed at what they sold for. Auctioneers are usually pretty reasonable compared to consignments and other methods of selling.

 

[Hyperion]

In March of last year I performed a similar service for a widow I knew. In her case it was four handguns so what I did may not work for you. I spent one afternoon and took the guns to a number of Denver area shops and pawn shops I had dealt with in the past. I got buy prices at each shop and presented the prices (in a spreadsheet with names, addresses, and phone numbers of the businesses) to the widow. The most amazing thing to me was the spread offered. The range for the four revolvers was from $580 to $1,000! I was dumbfounded to see that much variation.

It turned out the best deal for her was using a a consignment shop. They had a good customer flow and also put the guns on the Internet. Since she was not in a big hurry to sell, she could wait for several months while they sat in the shop.

Regardless of what she chose, she at least had some prices in black and white to refer to. I knew her husband and daughter and didn't want somebody coming by and offering her some lowball price and her not knowing any better.

Thanks for helping out the lady.

 

[bk43]

These are situations that are fraught with danger. The risk is hard feelings for everyone involved.

Having been down this road a couple times you should take this to heart and then memorize the rest of Dick's post. You're now good to go.

Good luck.

Bob

 

[rburg]

Now its time to tell another long and boring story. One of my favorites, too.

I had a gun show partner for a number of years. John was well known and respected on the gun show circuit. Everybody knew him and respected him (except for the fact he associated with me.) But in real life John worked two jobs. He was an undertaker (he called me a while back with his news, it was in June a few years ago, and on that date he'd been in the business 50 full years. He started at the ripe old age of 13 on a summer job and never quit.) John was also the county coroner in a western Kentucky county.

Old folks pass away all the time. An old friend passed and they called John to both take care of the legalities and also handle the funeral arrangements. Not a problem, he was a classy guy (except for associating with me.) So there was nothing all that unusual and the ceremony went off without a hitch. But at the visitation the widow pulled him aside and asked if he could also help out with some guns her husband had upstairs. Of course his ears perked up, and he said sure.

So a few days later he called and then went to her house. It turns out the guns were all up in an attic. They weren't the husbands guns, they were his fathers and had "always been up there." Turns out the father-in-law had been a junk collector back during the depression. He made his living, such as it was, but pulling a hand cart around the county. He bought scrap metal wherever he could. Often the people had old guns.

He didn't pay much because, as the story goes, half the weight was in the wood and it would have to be burned or stripped off (God forbid.) But the old man was said to only pay a dime or so for a long gun. Not much metal weight. He preferred old broken farm implements like plows or wheels, etc. His policy was to just take the guns up to the attic and store them. Lots of them.

So when John hoisted himself up he discovered a lot of old guns, most of little or no value. He made a cell phone call and got some help to come over (the advantage of being the coroner was he had helpers that weren't squeamish.) So they handed down all the old guns and took them outside to the front porch. This is Kentucky, porches are a staple.

And he went about sorting the guns into groups. The vast majority of them went into a junk pile. It was old, rusted and broken guns. They sold it to his friendly local gunsmith for parts, screws, etc. Brought a few hundred bucks. The widow was pleased.

The second pile wasn't as large, and was guns that maybe could be fired or still used as firearms. America went through a long period of everyone owning a firearm. In Kentucky particularly, your horse may be lame, the roof may leak, and you may be near starvation. But you had a serviceable firearm at hand. Its just how things were. Those were also sold to a gun shop and brought in a couple of thousand bucks. Again, the widow was overjoyed because to her it was found money.

But the third pile was just one single gun. John knew his guns. His knowledge was wide and sometimes deep. That gun was a treasure. He told the widow it was worth some money and he would go about selling it for her. She liked the idea.

I came into the picture a few weeks after the "sorting." John and I had a routine at the gunshows. He lived in western KY, I live in the northern part. We'd coordinate and I'd be standing out back of the show when he'd pull up. We were a well greased machine. He'd stop, we'd open the liftgate on his Excursion (sometimes hearse) and we'd take out his 4 wheel cart. Then we'd put the plastic tubs on the cart, followed by the long guns sideways, and then some misc bags of gun debris. It only took a couple of minutes, and we tried not to block anything. Then with his wife running interference for me, I'd push the overweight cart up and into the show. John would park the vehicle. But this time he said he had a special package.

So his wife and I got the cart to our tables and we began our set up. It was well practiced (4 or 5 times a year.) We often suspected John of taking his time so he wouldn't be around until after all the lifting was finished. But this time he was walking along differently than normal. he was carrying this old blanket in his arms, sidestepping everyone and being real careful. Yes, it did attract a crowd.

The two principals of our friendly gun shop were alerted (Probably a phone call.) They came running to have a look. We gingerly unrolled the bundle, and it had one rusty old gun inside. It was an ancient lever action. It was one of the few known surviving maleable iron Henry's. They only made a 150 or so, and almost none survived. Except this one in a junk collectors attic, for about 70 years after its first 70 someplace else. The gun store guys ran to find a gun case to put it in. It was the December show and they took it to the SHOT show in Las Vegas.

The idea was to sell it, so they did. When they returned from the show, they gave John a phone call. He was on his way. One advantage of being an elected official was you could skip out on work and fool everybody. He headed east toward Lexington. When he got there the guys were still unloading from the trip west. They gave him the normal Kentucky money carrying pouch. The bag from a long since digested Egg McMuffin breakfast. They went inside and opened it. It contained way more cash than anyone should haul around so casually. It was about $33,000 bucks in 100s. The sellers took their commission, about $4500. And John headed back toward home with the Micky D's bag, still pretty darn full.

He went to visit the widow and she was just floored. She'd never even seen a thousand bucks at one time, much less that much. And he had to explain to her they were going to have a problem depositing the money in her bank account. So they came up with a plan (you might call it a conspiracy to launder money.) They just divided the money into 3 about equal piles, and took off with them to the bank. Everyone in that community knew John, so it was nothing unusual for him to accompany a widow to the bank. They deposited the first batch in her bank. Then the second in one of his banks, and then the third in another of his. Then he wrote her checks for the full amount and all was well.

The moral of this story is everyone isn't qualified to do the kind of appraisal this thread is about. The needle in a haystack isn't always easy to pick out by the uninformed. Someone less able might have just assumed all the old rusty guns were junk. I can tell this story now because all the players are pretty well dead and gone. I miss John.

But if I needed someone to come along and appraise my collection, I can't imagine a better person to do the job.

 

[P&R Fan]

I have a feeling the "men-folk" you speak of may not be the most trustworthy to her. Lots of times they have their own agenda. I may be way off base, but that happens a lot.
If I were you I would be extremely honored that this lady trusts you in this regard. I obviously don't know you or her, so once again this is a gut feeling, but I doubt it's just the fact you're the "gun guy" in the church. (I know the feeling, that's who I am at mine too). It's more likely the fact she has a history with you and she has given you something you have obviously earned, her trust. That's something to be proud of.

 

[ElToro]

nice story Dick. it pays to do the right thing. karma can be a cruel mistress

somebody had a iron frame Henry on antiques roadshow a few years ago, the appraised it at about 100k.

 

[redlevel]

Well Dick, I didn't find a $33,000 gun, but I did find a pretty good Winchester. The Blue Book says a Model 1892 Winchester in 50% condition is worth $1075. I don't claim to be able to grade these guns, but I believe this one might go 70%, in which case it lists in the BB at $1650. I realize that getting what a "Book" says and what someone is actually willing to pay are two different deals, but there are a lot of people who collect Winchesters, sort of like S&Ws. The bore looks good, but the most amazing thing to me is how tight and slick the action is. I wouldn't be afraid to go to the range with it tomorrow. According to one internet source, the serial number puts it at a 1911 manufacture date, so the old girl is 100 years old.

 

[billdeserthills]

If possible a laptop & access to Gunbroker/ Buds Gunshop, of course the bluebook of gun values is helpful but often inaccurate on many sought-after makes of Handguns but I find it pretty accurate for Long guns. You might find a copy of Gun Digest the Magazine helpful on more popular models. I know years ago, before I got my ffl, I called someone in GunDigest who advertised wanting Browning Shotguns & he was glad to help me over the phone, while I looked at the collection.
At least if you measure the barrel lengths and write down makers name & model # along with caliber that will go a long way for folks to help you guess

 

[handejector]

Looks like an honest gun- original finish on wood and metal.
Standard rifle, uncut?

25-20 is the least desirable cal, but the 92's always do well.

 

[GTbob]

I suggest putting the guns up for auction on GunBroker or Auction Arms. That way the guns will sell for what they are worth at this period in time and economic situation and will help put down any feelings that the family was taken advantage of. Who ever manages the auctions for the family can take a 10-15 percent cut to cover their duties, which would be very fair.

I have sold collectibles for a friend, her late mother's items, believe me 10-15% for all the work is not enough. I charged 25% and that was barely worth it.

Bob

 

[66TAS]

Looks like an honest gun- original finish on wood and metal.
Standard rifle, uncut?

25-20 is the least desirable cal, but the 92's always do well.

While I hesitate to argue your word, I have always been told the 25-20 was the caliber made in the fewest numbers and sells for more $$. Am I remembering this wrong or just been mislead?