CAJUNLAWYER
Member
Did someone tell them this or did they pick it up on their own???
Herpetologists (amateur or pro), please identity this.
- Thread starter LennyLames
- Start date
Did someone tell them this or did they pick it up on their own???
BearBio
Member
Texas Star is pretty much on target (From a biologist who grew up in SoCal and was an amateur "herper" all his life and a professional now).
ID is hard==could be a Western diamondback or a Mojave. Colors vary a lot from area to area. Mojaves are USUALLY a more drab green. WDs have very distinct "coontailk" markings. ID is made by looking at the head==Mojaves have two enlarged scaled between the eyes.
Most, if not all, snake venoms have both a hemotoxic (digestive/tissue destroying) component and a neurotoxic (paralyzing) component. The Mojave does have a strongly neurotoxic component (so do some Southern pacific populations). FYI= the Mojave's venom is stronger than an Indian cobras.
Dr Fred Shannon (co-author of a medical school textbook on snake bite) was collecting Mojaves near Johannesberg/Randsberg inthe Mojave desert. He was with Dr Findley Russel, his co-author. He was bit at the base of his left thumnail by a Mojave. Despite first rate care, he died withing 15 minutes.
ps: All the Mojaves I've caught or handled have been silent==never rattled!
'nuff said!
ID is hard==could be a Western diamondback or a Mojave. Colors vary a lot from area to area. Mojaves are USUALLY a more drab green. WDs have very distinct "coontailk" markings. ID is made by looking at the head==Mojaves have two enlarged scaled between the eyes.
Most, if not all, snake venoms have both a hemotoxic (digestive/tissue destroying) component and a neurotoxic (paralyzing) component. The Mojave does have a strongly neurotoxic component (so do some Southern pacific populations). FYI= the Mojave's venom is stronger than an Indian cobras.
Dr Fred Shannon (co-author of a medical school textbook on snake bite) was collecting Mojaves near Johannesberg/Randsberg inthe Mojave desert. He was with Dr Findley Russel, his co-author. He was bit at the base of his left thumnail by a Mojave. Despite first rate care, he died withing 15 minutes.
ps: All the Mojaves I've caught or handled have been silent==never rattled!
'nuff said!
I would not leave a rattler near the house! If you want rodent control, release some gophersnakes in the yard, but I would never leave a rattler.
My local hills are full of rattlers. I won't venture off the wide open fire roads, unless I am wearing knee high motocross boots and kneepads. Got to say that if I find rattlers way out in the bush it's no big deal, but near the houses I always kill them. It's not like they are endangerd or there is a shortage of them or something. Lots of other non-poisonous snakes out there to fill their niche.
My local hills are full of rattlers. I won't venture off the wide open fire roads, unless I am wearing knee high motocross boots and kneepads. Got to say that if I find rattlers way out in the bush it's no big deal, but near the houses I always kill them. It's not like they are endangerd or there is a shortage of them or something. Lots of other non-poisonous snakes out there to fill their niche.
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you have a very dangerous snake at your house.....just saying...
dkees
Member
I too am puzzled about the non-elimination of this snake. As stated by others an environment has been provided for them and they are going to take advantage of it.
I have no problem with snakes. I stay away from them and they had better stay away from me.
If they forget who is higher on the food chain I will make them part of the landscape, right now.
I have no problem with snakes. I stay away from them and they had better stay away from me.
If they forget who is higher on the food chain I will make them part of the landscape, right now.
billdeserthills
Member
Definately a Rattler, I have seen them with broken-off rattles too. My first response would have been to grab a flat-bottomed shopvel & chop the head off. Around here (in Arizona) you can call the fire dept & they'll take it away for you. I have had two dogs bitten 4 times apiece so now poisenous snake = dead snake
monet61
US Veteran
Every Mojave I have seen here in the part of NV I live,one mile from AZ, have a distinct green color. And they are very territorial. Bad snakes. There's no way I would allow that snake to be that close to any part of my family. YMMV
enfield
US Veteran
Assuming that some rattlers don't rattle (mutation?), if they survive while rattling rattlers don't, there's no telling or picking-up required. The change just happens.
If non-rattling is a transmissible genetic trait and it enhances survival, then the trait should survive and, conversely, the rattling trait should not. Over time you should see (or not see until it's too late, rather) more silent snakes and fewer rattling ones. Natural selection, assuming that such a mechanism exists.
Thus endeth the lesson in snake genetics from someone who doesn't know anything about genetics other than what he remembers from a high-school science class.
My head hurts.
SNEAKY SNAKE LIVES!
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badguybuster
Member
Just as an FYI-Snakes help keep the rats from destroying humanity. the idea that a good snake is a dead snake is ridiculous. A lot of places have their animal control relocate them to the wild. No need to kill it unless it poses an immediate threat.
enfield
US Veteran
Any poisonous snake near me poses an immediate threat to me and mine. I'll let the non-poisonous snakes control the vermin. 
Texas Star
US Veteran
Bear Bio-
Hello! I believe that the spacing of the black stripes on the "coontail" is wider on the Mojave, and is one way to distinguish them from the WD. Getting close enough to check the head scales is perilous.
The lethal venom dose for a human male weighing about 150 pounds is 20 mg. for Naja haje, the Egyptian cobra, about the same for the Black Mamba. The Cape Yellow Cobra can kill you with about 15 mg. of venom. This data is from books by Dr. Sherman Minton, including tne US Naval medical manual for venomous snakes and their distribution. It's out of my head, but I'm virtually certain that memory is accurate here. I haven't time now to dig out the books and check. I don't recall the lethality of the Indian cobra, but suspect that it's about on par with the Egyptian version. If the Mojave rattler is that dangerous, it's just foolish to tolerate one around home!
I have read about Dr. Russell, but didn't know about the other man, who died from a bite. Karl Schmidt, a famous herpetologist, died of a boomslang bite in 1957 after one tagged him in a zoo, and the famous Dr. Marlin Perkins almost succumbed in 1929 to a single fang bite received from a Gaboon viper when he reached into its cage at a zoo. I read the medical report, and his situation was very grave for some time.
You mentioned the Johannesburg/Randsberg area. I thought you must mean in South Africa until I read a bit further. Any idea why those towns in AZ sound so South African? Was Frederick Russell Burnham involved?
That was a really good post, BTW. Thanks.
T-Star
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Faulkner
Member
It has been my experiance that it's much easier to examine the particulars of the snake after it's dead.
Chubbs103
US Veteran
You mentioned the Johannesburg/Randsberg area. I thought you must mean in South Africa until I read a bit further. Any idea why those towns in AZ sound so South African? Was Frederick Russell Burnham involved?
That was a really good post, BTW. Thanks.
T-Star
Johannesburg and Randsburg are actually right down the road from me in California. The area developed around gold-mining. The miners that named Johannesburg had previously worked a claim in South Africa (or so the story goes). The area is southwest of Death Valley.
We've been seeing the snakes more and more as the weather warms. Lots of sidewinders and the occasional Mojave Rattler.
Chubbs
cass
Member
Based only on what is visible in the photos, I'd lean toward the Western Diamondback, Crotalus atrox, rather than the Mojave - the head just doesn't look right to me. Either way, they aren't to be ignored. Very serious bites.
BearBio is correct in asserting that positive discrimination of a Mojave from Western Diamondback is based on nuances of "squamation", the shape of scales on the head, although the tail bands and color may also be indicators of species, albeit far less reliable. I'm guessing that the subject snake is in fact a WD, because: it pretty plainly isn't one of the many other candidate rattlers which might occupy the habitat where LennyLames resides, and it's a much more probable to find a WD than a Mojave in this area. I've collected (from dens) and seen many snakes in this vicinity, and they have all been WDs. Just northwest of LL's home is the convergence of many overlapping AZ rattler species' habitats, but this is either a Mojave or WD, the odds vastly favoring the latter.
In any event, it is a dangerous snake, but probably poses little danger to an alert and watchful adult. Households with kids or pets might want to eliminate such a hazard, but will find that abhoring a vacuum, nature will replace it, probably sooner than later...
In any event, it is a dangerous snake, but probably poses little danger to an alert and watchful adult. Households with kids or pets might want to eliminate such a hazard, but will find that abhoring a vacuum, nature will replace it, probably sooner than later...
MK
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Any poisonous snake near me poses an immediate threat to me and mine. I'll let the non-poisonous snakes control the vermin.
That's the way I see it. I can see maybe letting a poisonous
snake go free if you are way out in the woods, and not near
any people.
But I would never leave a snake like that hanging around
a house, or even a camp site. Ever!
If I had seen that snake near my house, it would have been
belt material pronto.
Let him go, and he could surprise you again, and it could be
unpleasant. And with that food pile, you know it's probably
going to hang close for an easy lunch.
Leaving a snake like that to prowl around a house is just
plain crazy. I'd be on pins and needles ever time I walked
around the yard wondering where the little @#%$ was hiding at.
Even at my camp site, if one came along, it's toast.
To be perfectly honest, if I saw one anywhere on my land, it's
probably toast even if it's away from my camp area.
I don't want to have to worry about stumbling into it again.
Like one said, there are plenty enough non poisonous snakes to
eat the critters, than to take the risks involved in having one of those
nasty things crawling around.
Heck, I had a little non poisonous slither under my lawn chair last fall.
I let him slither on down the road. Actually, he went and hid under
my car for a while when I got up to look at him. :/
But if it had been poisonous, it would have been terminated on the
spot.
I'm not an expert, but just from 54 years of observations, getting
bit by *any* poisonous snake is bad news. You might get lucky if they
don't release much venom, but most of the time they will.
And the smaller ones are the worst at that. They can't regulate venom
well, and if they bite you, you are usually in trouble.
I'm the same way about brown recluses, and black widows..
They can cause injuries as nasty as the snakes. Really nasty.. Holes
ate in flesh, massive discoloration, really bad news.. Check youtube..
Plenty of nasty examples to see.
If I see one, it's toast.
Call me paranoid, but I will not have any of those nasty critters in my
living area.
You Navy at China Lake?
Lots of rain in the desert this year. The snake birthrate is tied to the amount of prey they can find. There will be a huge increase in the number of rodent this year....and next year there will be even more snakes than now!
The worst are the little ones in the spring that have just hatched out. They are very poisonous, and don't have experience regulating the amount of venom they deliver. (An experienced adult will deliver less venom on a defensive strike, vs a predatory strike.) They are small and hard to see, and they don't rattle!
These are the hills behind my house. Hike, bike, and trail run back there every day: http://www.williamkhayes.com/rattlesnake_study/
http://www.williamkhayes.com/rattlesnake_study/about.htm
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You are correct. You are also a good shot. I try to make head shots on the larger snakes but if they are on the move, I hit them where I can.
I would disagree. Snakes do not eat all the time or often. Owls, hawks, cats, fox and many more animals in the wild do more to keep the rodent population down.
When do you consider a snake as an immediate threat? If it is in my yard, I consider it to be an immediate threat. Try pulling something out of your yard or letting kids play and see if the snake you let go by safely does not bite.
