The Onion Field and LAPD K-38s

Hi Fred
Great post; lots of memories there. John Hurst had already retired but lived down the street from me; we used to practice together. John told me he occasionally went unarmed on duty and put a sock in his flap holster to fill it out when he worked traffic in Hollywood. His 6" was back home being used as a check frame for the stocks he was making. Different times.
Bob
 
The custom grips he had were made by a policeman at the time from the LAPD Shooting Team, I believe his name was Hogue (corrected - John Hurst). Here is my pair that he made for me, in 1981. They need refinishing and a screw, anyone can help? Also in 80 my Training Officer (who came on in 1955) gave me his "speed loader" cause he wanted one of those new ones! I still have it along with his leather ticket book which I recently passed on to a new Officer...

Mike

IMG_0206.JPG


Took me a couple of days to get around to looking it up. The strip loader appears to be a "Speed-D-Loader" or "Spee-D-Loader" circa 1970 from an LA company. Both names are written in the 1st edition LE Handgun Digest. Anything written on it??
 
Mike's issue gun looks like a cut-down K-38. Those were around quite a bit when I was working patrol in the early 80's. My old training officer was given the option of turning in his 6" and receiving a new 15 or getting his 6" cut back. Keeping the 6" wasn't an option. Other coppers were allowed to keep their 6 inchers unmolested. Don't know why some were allowed to keep them uncut. Harry Davis and Phil Harris (two LAPD Armorers) retired long ago, so I guess the question will remain. Any thoughts, Mike?
Bob
 
Lots of memories coming back from this thread. K frames, 158 grain round nose, no portables or speedloaders. Men were men, and women were dispatchers.

Oops..... I didn't really say that did I?

Speaking of Adam 12, I've met Martin Milner and Kent McCord many times at law enforcement charity events over the years, and you couldn't meet two nicer guys. They've sure given back a lot to the LE community.
 
Most of the shotguns went to the S/O after they were turned into beanbag guns,or just to them ,some still remained and I think there were some returned by S/O. Talk of offering them for sale to officers,but will probably run into the same issues as when we tried to sell the old revolvers. Ocassionally a pristine one comes in from some DET Bureau or somewhere.Most are in pretty rough shape.
 
Some of mine from the years

Here a few LAPD guns, the model 67 was modified by Harry in the armory with a heavy barrel.Some old some newer ,PPC-14 and later mod 14. that I carried b-4 switching to semi auto. Bobguns revolvers.jpg
 
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It's been a couple of years since I posted this excerpt. The full article also covers the special LAPD Ithaca shotgun.

Jack Harper, "LAPD – All Purpose Firepower", July, 1970 Guns & Ammo.

...Along with standardization of technique has come fairly complete standardization of duty revolvers. Unless an officer has had his 6-inch pistol for over two years, he must soon turn it in on a 4-inch job.
On the other end of the scale, no officer - even plainclothes detectives or those uniformed men who
are off-duty - may carry a 2-inch gun. Generally, this is to insure that an officer qualifies with, and carries, only one gun.

The 4-inch barrelled revolver is thought to be the best compromise for power, accuracy and concealability. The LAPD Academy has been issuing the 4-inch S&W Combat Masterpiece (I think that's a mistake – should be 6-inch K-38) for some years now, although there is a choice of other' Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers on the "approved" list.

Recently, as an experiment leading up to the full changeover to double-action shooting, one class of the LAPD Academy had all of its revolvers issued double-action only. The men had some initial difficulty but soon caught up with the qualification schedule.

Observing qualification on the combat range included watching some 20-year veterans. This group have only recently been made to continue regular qualification, and while they swung their 6-inch K-38s and Colt Officers Models with ease, there were some hits pulled into the shoulders of the silhouettes, on double action.

On the question of loads, it's hard to avoid the .38 Special Versus Everything Else controversy. The duty load now recommended by the LAPD range officers is the Remington .38 HighVelocity 158-grain round-nose leadbullet cartridge. In a 4-inch barrel, this load gives the regulation 950 fps thought desirable for urban police use.

Many range officers at the Academy have expressed a preference for a brand of .38 Special ammo that offers a full-weight, round-nose bullet with a higher velocity and a hollow point. Tests showed, to their satisfaction, that the round is more effective for police purposes. Somewhere along the line, the word came back down, "no dum-dum bullets – bad public relations!"
 
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hi guys . Remington .38 HighVelocity 158-grain round-nose leadbullet cartridge ?/
what did the box look like ??

robbt
 
Here's the photo of the original Spee-D Loader....

IMG_0211.JPG



Correct me if I'm wrong, but my 15-3 was modified (Harry) by using a model 10 bull barrel that had a sight pinned to it. You can see that the sighted frame does not line up with the original non-adjustable sight height barrel...

IMG_0212.JPG







The HB has a low rib and the K-38 has a higher one....

sw-m10hb.jpg


sw-m14.jpg
 
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WOW, what memories. At this point I feel compelled to impart some more history as I have learned it.

William H. Parker became Chief in 1950 on a platform of ending the rampant corruption that was prevalent in that era. Soon after Parker took office Jack Webb began production of his Dragnet series. Webb worked closely with Parker using an experienced police officer as a consultant to ensure that the department was portrayed as Parker envisioned it. Later, Jack Webb produced the Adam 12 series with the same ties and loyalty to the LAPD. Several of the Adam 12 shows were used as training films in 1970 and 1971while I was in the academy.

Until the late 1960's (approximately 1968), the Los Angeles Police Department issued 6" revolvers, manufactured by S&W or Colt, to the uniformed officers and issued 2" revolvers, also manufactured by S&W or Colt, to detectives. To simplify the accountability of firearms and their repair parts, the LAPD standardized on the 4" S&W revolver for issue to all new officers in the late 1960's. At that time, they cut two inches from the barrel on some remaining 6" S&W Model 14 revolvers and issued them to new officers.

The S&W Model 14-2 serial number K754XXX, with a blue steel finish and 4" barrel that I was issued in December of 1970 is one of those that had the barrel shortened. A tool mark is visible on the Muzzle crown, which is inconsistent with S&W manufactured barrels and the stampings on the sides of the barrel are not centered but are well forward of center.

As per a letter from S&W historian Roy Jenks, this revolver was shipped to Olympic Wholesale Co., Los Angeles CA. on October 24, 1967. When shipped it was equipped with a 6" barrel and no grips.

The original grips, installed by LAPD, were of hard rubber by Pachmeier. These were later replaced with Hogue grips by the Los Angeles Police Department. Those Hogue grips remain on the revolver. This revolver was carried by me daily until January of 1989, after the department approved the use of 9MM semi-automatic pistols.

I was originally issued dump pouches for spare ammo and I purchased the Spee-D Loaders that fit in the dump pouch. As I remember it took a lot of practice to load any faster with them than to load loose ammo, especially during night combat qualification on a moon-less night.

When I retired in January of 1999, I bought the revolver from the City of Los Angeles for the paltry sum of $46.00. Presumably, this was what the city paid for it in 1967.
 
This is all very interesting to me....

With apologies aforehand for going a bit OT - can anyone associated with LAPD, retired or active answer a question for me? Been wondering for years.....

I have seen, at different times, the LAPD uniform depicted WITHOUT any sort of shoulder patch. (think 'TJ Hooker' or some such nonsense...). And at other times have see a SINGLE shoulder patch with the central symbol of a symmetrical green cross, which seems pretty obscure....

If in fact, there is no shoulder patch, I find that quite odd. I know there are portions of the country where it's common to see an agency patch on one shoulder, and perhaps a US flag patch on the other.
In this part of the US, agency patches are usually seen on both shoulders.

Thanks for any informed insight ya'll can send my way.....
 
LAPD has no shoulder patches. The patch you're wondering about is for traffic units (only). The standard LAPD uniform is devoid of any shoulder insignia.
Bob
 
Thanks, Bob. And not to belabor a point - but that begs the question - why?

Every agency I can think of has an 'official' patch that is unique to that department. Some have some sort of relevant symbol, some just simple embroidered 'print' IDing the department.
Just seems a little strange.

Closest thing I can think similar to this is a friend who went to work for the state of Missouri. They don't have a actual badge, just a little nickel-sized pin.
Thanks again.
L.C.
 
LAPD has always been "proud" that our uniform was patch-less...of course, we always had that huge badge, which doubled as a weapon in a pinch. I can remember coppers from other agencies (mostly back-east) who always asked for an LAPD "patch"...we always gave them the traffic patch, with the cross on it, because that's the only patch we had. I like it that our uniform, unlike most others, didn't have anything on it besides stripes (if you were lucky enough to get promoted). We even won the best cop uniform contest one year (before the King caper made us unpopular) and it was mentioned that our uniform had a clean, uncluttered look without a patch.
Bob
 
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Back to the movie, if I may, after the fiasco of 'The Choirboys' (Joseph Wambaugh took out a half page ad in Variety, disavowing anything to do with the movie and apologized to his friends and the public), Wambaugh kept complete control over the filming of 'The Onion Field', production of the movie halted numerous times, due to lack of funds and Wambaugh mortgaged his house three or four times to acquire funds to continue filming, I think it says a lot about Wambaugh's ability to persuade the crew to stick with him and the actors seeing that this film was important to him, as well as being a very good project for an actor to be involved with.


I've also found the memories voiced by the members that are veterans of the LAPD very interesting.
 
Dragnet in 1953 rather than 1963, but maybe not much different.

The holster for the 6 inch is a Clark 999.
 

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This is all very interesting to me....

With apologies aforehand for going a bit OT - can anyone associated with LAPD, retired or active answer a question for me? Been wondering for years.....

I have seen, at different times, the LAPD uniform depicted WITHOUT any sort of shoulder patch. (think 'TJ Hooker' or some such nonsense...). And at other times have see a SINGLE shoulder patch with the central symbol of a symmetrical green cross, which seems pretty obscure....

If in fact, there is no shoulder patch, I find that quite odd. I know there are portions of the country where it's common to see an agency patch on one shoulder, and perhaps a US flag patch on the other.
In this part of the US, agency patches are usually seen on both shoulders.

Thanks for any informed insight ya'll can send my way.....

As OIF2 sated, the LAPD patch with the green cross on it is used only by those assigned to traffic enforcement and investigation. Traditionally the LAPD uniform was dark blue because it was viewed as being impressive. Patches had to be of contrasting colors to be seen. White is the most contrasting color and white with a green cross was used by officers assigned to investigate traffic collisions and to enforce traffic laws. As those officers were primarily working very near to moving traffic lanes they were in danger of being hit by motorists. The white patches with the green cross and the white hats they wore made them more visible and hopefully safer.

Officers assigned to patrol functions were considered to be safer in less visible uniforms and had no shoulder insignia until about 1970 when rank insignia was introduced, consisting of white chevrons.
 
Also for the traffic patch ,there is a different patch for supervisors,I think the outer line around the border is different,Supv has a blue borderline. I know cause I bought my wife the wrong ones when she was a LT there once.REB
 
barrels

Here photos of both a regular 4"14 barrel and a LAPD cutdown.
I think Harry or Phil told me that a local company did the cut downs , milling for the front sights, precision drilling of the sight pin hole and reblue,if you look they did nice work. I dont remember what company or who did the work. Same with the model 10/64 Heavy barrels they were milled at the same place .
For those wondering Harry was an LAPD armorer for probably thirty years and Phil was a T/O when Harry went through the academy so 30 + probably for Phil. Both wonderful men ,great shots ,who tried to pass down their knowledge,but its hard to learn 60 + years of experience in 6-7 years.
I still remember looking for a lefthand screwdriver for an hour before Harry stopped me, well maybe it wasnt that bad ,but close. Bob
 

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