How do I Interpret Loonyland Internet Pricing of used S&Ws?

[PhilOhio]

Yes, this is a legitimate question. And we've all seen it at guns shows, much more frequently these days. A table holder is trying to sell a current, in-production S&W for as much, or more, than the current MSRP price, which no sane person actually pays anyway. What is he up to?

Unfortunately, sometimes that is not hard to understand. These people, when you ask them about that, often emphasize that this is an "out the door price." My strong personal opinion is that a guy doing this should be permanently banned from that, or any other, show. Clearly, he is catering to a person who may have a criminal record disqualifying him from handgun purchase through a dealer, who must run an instant check. My experience is that in only one or two instances over the last 30 years or so, buying many guns at shows, has a non-FFL seller ever asked to see my ID.

But now the real question. Internet firearms sales, via Gunbroker, Guns America, Auction Arms, etc., is a very different process. Firearms must be shipped to an FFL or, if more than 50 years old, to a C&R license holder like many of us. So one would think that a ridiculously inflated price does not mean the seller is targeting the gang market, right?

But on these marketing or auction sights I see umpteen S&Ws, and everything else, advertised at absurdly inflated prices. If it is an auction site, there is often a gigantic, inflated minimum bid, and for almost all of these listings, you can see there have been "0" bidders.

What is going on? Is the seller merely trying to establish contact with a prospective buyer, and then find some way to do the deal under the table, beating the auction site out of its fee?

Here's what happened to me just yesterday. I have been seriously thinking about buying a very expensive S&W Model 952 9mm target pistol. My FFL friend did the research for me, found the gun is readily available through one of his distributors, and the price is about $1,550 plus shipping under $20. That's probably the way I will go, and it gets me a S&W warranty.

But first, I checked the Internet sites and found a seller in Florida offering a 952 and 3 - 4 magazines for what rounds out to about $2,400, well above MSRP. The gun is over one year old, and with very minor wear. The guy posted a virtual blizzard of pictures, of every part of the gun from every angle.

So I asked the seller what was going on. What would be my motivation for paying nearly $1,000 more for the non-warrantied gun than what I could buy it for, new, from Smith? I said I would be interested in his 952 if he would be willing to take a little bit less than what I can buy the gun for new, with warranty.

Back came his short, curt answer. "Go ahead. Buy the new gun." He couldn't care less.

So what is going on here? Help me out, guys. There has to be something sub rosa. Are these Internet sellers also catering to unqualified buyers with bad data in the FBI instant check database? Do they seek only to make contact, and then ship illegally, on the sly? Are the ridiculous prices intended only to drive away legitimate, law abiding buyers and reverse filter the other kind, willing to pay anything?

If you look at the major sales or auction sites, scan down at the bid counters. Most get zero bids. Something very fishy is going on, and I'll bet some of you have stories about what it is.

Whatever it is, it should be knocked out, before it spoils the game for the rest of us. And I am a strong advocate of applying the same standards to gun shows. I don't want these sleezoids raining on my/our parade. Something smells, and it needs to be deodorized.

I'm really interested to hear what you guys think, as I know many of you have spent years and years working gun show tables, and running, or working in, stocking dealerships.

The gunshow aspect of this, in my experience, is that quite a number of sellers are absolutely rigid about sticking with prices which I am sure no knowledgeable collector would pay. Sure, they may be trolling for suckers. But are there really that many around? And with money somebody has not already swindled them out of? In these economic times?

Are these non-selling "sellers" just hoping to be able to go home from the show, sadly shrug their shoulders, and tell their wives they couldn't sell any guns, no matter what they tried?

I keep thinking I am missing something, but what? Is sanity more rare than I think? Or is it that (sellers') wishful thinking is just off the charts?

And we would be kidding ourselves by saying we have not seen a fair share of this quite close to home.

Again, I'm trying to focus on asking prices of recent or in-production Smiths, where that price is almost the same as, or even more, than MSRP. Something doesn't compute. What?

 

[murphydog]

"Caveat emptor". Looking for impulse buyers that like something and have the money but haven't done the research. If the sellers make the sale and the buyer doesn't check later, they have the $ and no one is the wiser. And so what if they have to bargain down to MSRP? Just avoid them and try to warn others.

 

[Slufstuff]

I cannot offer much insight into the internet prices. I see these ads all the time and do not know the motivation of the sellers. It is not just a gun thing though. I sometimes buy and sell collectibles on eBay, and the same thing goes on all the time. I have seen one collectible item continuously listed for over three years now with an absurd starting price, at least 5 times the going market price for the item. The seller has incurred a fair amount of ebay fees over the 3 years, yet they have never reduced the price, changed the ad, or anything. Why? They are just steadily losing money. I set up a private party table at our local gunshow several times a year and see some guys with the same over priced guns year after year, never selling them.

I would not get too bent out of shape out of a seller telling you the price is out the door, though. That is a common term meaning the price includes any sales tax or any local fees charged. I use the term regularly myself both in selling and buying from dealers. Nothing nefarious.

 

[mtime7]

maybe when they bought it they paid way to much and are trying to recoup their money

 

[ken158]

Some are priced to sell and some are priced to let everyone know who owns it. When I hit the shows in my area, you often see the same stuff over and over again. The guys at the tables are just having a good time visiting. Guess if they sell out, then they would have no excuse to spend the weekend at the gun show....

 

[Qmark]

There is a marketing ploy used for years by car dealers, furniture stores and especially by antique dealers. It is not uncommon the see 2 or 3 identical or nearly identical items ridiculously high priced. Then there will be a similar item priced a bit more reasonably. Buyer looks at the the over priced items, sees the more reasonably priced goods then hastily buys it believing he is getting a deal.

Years ago had a girlfriend that was in the bed mattress business. She had the mattresses she really wanted to move deliberately displayed next to over priced similar looking goods. The sales people when asked about the discrepancy used terms like close-out, over stock but a phrase like limited to stock on hand, sale ends tomorrow or only a few left in stock would often close the sale.

I'm not saying that is what is going one with your particular deal but it is possible a dealer or possibly multiple dealers working together list over priced guns in order to move lower priced but similar merchandise.

 

[sniper47]

gun show sellers are looking for a sucker. People who do not research a particular gun prior to buying deserve the gun show seller. I can't speak to the gun show sellers' motivation, but perhaps they are all independently wealthy and really don't have to sell their wares at or below MSRP. I used to be a regular seller at gun shows. I priced my items typically 20-50 dollars below their going price. I sold many guns that way. I would price it fairly with a profit for me included and a good buy for the seller. You would have to sit down with one of those gun show sellers and ask him face to face why he continues to bring the same, overpriced items to gun show after gun show, year after year. Only they will be able to explain their motivation.

 

[TNDave]

The guys at the tables are just having a good time visiting. Guess if they sell out, then they would have no excuse to spend the weekend at the gun show....

There is a lot of truth in that. Here I would say almost 50% of people at shows with a table are there to buy guns from people coming in the door and believe me they are watching the door for granny to come in with something good or someone who inherited something good who is there to dump it off. A lot of selling takes place between that group with each other. There is a kind of onery gun show dealer who never sells anything and it is a mystery to me what they are doing other than passing the time. No explaining some folks.

On the internet I have watched guns I would buy for a reasonable price not meet the reserve over and over until finally no one bids on them. Clearly the person listing it doesn't mean to sell it. Kind of crazy.

 

[Shadow1006]

Yep...They have it and if you want it, you can step up to try and buy it! Some are fair deals, others are not so fair. Factor in FFL fees and shipping cost and the prices can be over local store pricing including local taxes. But many local gun stores may not carry the item you are looking for either!

Take everything into account before bidding and even ask the seller questions...

 

[PhilOhio]

These are really some interesting insights already. Some I had considered and some I had never thought of, but make a lot of sense. I appreciate them all, and would like to hear more, from any of you who have thoughts on it.

Human nature is fascinating, and the Internet is bringing out aspects of it which we had not seen on this scale before, both good and bad. But nothing boring.

Aside from the nutty pricing on Smiths, and lots of other things, some of that pricing is not completely off the wall, but just rapidly inflating for good reason, in my admittedly biased opinion. That I can understand.

In my teens during the '50s, I was beginning to buy my own carefully chosen handguns, with money I had earned the hard way. Very early, I learned that no handguns were as well designed, carefully built, reliable, accurate, and as good value as the S&Ws. In half a century, I haven't seen anything to change my mind. There have been wonderful High Standards, a few decent Colts, some pretty good Rugers, and other American made handguns which were "nice" or "O.K.". But none of them are Smiths. I'm crossing my fingers, hoping S&W management protects that heritage.

It seems to be only recently that used S&W values have risen dramatically. The Internet may have a lot to do with that, or new generations of shooters are just now discovering what some of us figured out decades ago. And it may be that my views on aluminum and plastic guns are being shared by a younger generation, as they take their smart pills.

But this other thing, the completely nutty pricing, is both strange and fascinating to watch and try to understand. I hope this thread generates a few more shared points of view which I have missed. I suppose it's all a part of the fun of accumulating Smiths, and all the others which have tickled my fancy and followed me home.

 

[quneur]

Most internet sales are done by pawn shops. The only make money if they can move merchandise at their prices. When they put it up for auction, you don't know how long its been their store taking up space. Prices depends upon how much they originally paid for it. Some of the pawn shops local to me will try to make 3x or more of the original price. Hence, why you see some outrageous prices.

I've sold stuff on ebay before and I don't know what their policies are now but they use to did not charge for listing, only if it sold.

 

[Laddy Smith]

HIgh prices

One of the off shoots of the internet is the HUGE pool of buyers the individual can TRY to access for products. In the old days, a local store/individual would have a certain pool of buyers. They would discuss or offer and the seller would have a good idea of what the item would bring.

Fast forward to the internet: Somebody in Northern Montana is no longer just selling to those in a 40 mile radius. He is selling nationwide. How much has he increased his potential buyer pool? 3500%?? More??

I know the first 4 handguns I purchased were from 3 different shops within 40 miles of where I lived. 10 of the last 14 I have purchased were from out of state.

Some of these sellers on the net aren't in a hurry to sell & they know how to play the game. They might post 8 auctions with a price of (say) $1500. Even though it doesn't sell they have established a false value for those that research the history of the past 5 months. When they offer it the 9th time with a "buy now" price of $1250 someone that has been watching decides to jump on it.

As far as individuals selling high, the issue of ego and winning usually comes into play. I have contacted some sellers privately and asked if the price was high because of custom work or accessories. They usually reply that the price reflects what it's worth (to them but not to the majority of buyers). Many times, you will see a couple weeks later the item has been sold (mostly legit sales). So, in their defense, they were patient and got the $$ they wanted. You and I would never pay that much but they didn't need to sell to us because "one" was coming down the road any minute.

Lad

 

[VTHokiesDuckHunter]

I've recently bought two 3rd gen S&W's off the web (through GunBroker) and am currently negotiating to buy a Browning O/U from another source I found on the web.

A few of the other listed guns that were the same model S&W's that I finally purchased, were "over priced" for whatever reason, but I kept looking until I found a motivated buyer, with a "buy now" price that I had already established as in my range (in the first case). In the second case, I out bid a guy for a gun after he dropped out (or maybe just forgot the closing time of the auction). In that case I had already decided my maximum bid and placed it in that fashion.

Both guns were LNIB, and awesome deals.

I've lost a few very nice guns at great prices by just barely being beat out, by saavy bidders.

The key is to set your max price in your head, and placing that type of auto-bid, and don't change it. Also to understand that in many cases, the "reserve price" may be significantly lower than the "buy now" price. Fpr many of you this is second nature, but surprisingly, many others are not aware of this and think the Reserve Price is close to or equal to the Buy Now price.

I guess what I'm saying is, there may be some sketchy deals, and yes, I've seen some guns go week after week, month after month with no bidders. I've learned to ignore them. But there are a lot great deals too, so I focus on these.

One thing I've found is that some

I only wish there was a way (and if there is please educate me on it!) to easily block either certain guns, or dealers, from searches on GunBroker, GunsAmerica, etc., so I don't have to waste any time looking at their items.

It's just the same, if not more pronounced, with some over/unders.

One guys will have a Browning GTS listed for $2700 and another for $2200. Same grade, etc. I'll see the higher priced one on there for weeks and weeks without ever showing any bids. Go figure.

 

[one eye joe]

Internet Auction sellers are often attempting to recoup what they have invested in a gun, including FFL fees, shipping and insurance to the new purchaser. Older editions of current production S&Ws that DO NOT HAVE THE LOCK, will often fetch more than a NIB example with the accursed lock. Gun show loopholes that avoid criminal checks should be closed for the good of ALL OF US involved in the sport/hobby. If there is something that disturbs you about a particular item, seller, or purchase price AVOID it. No one is forced into these transactions. Let the buyer beware is the operant caveat in all of these instances...

 

[Frank46]

Here in Lousiana one normally see prices for used guns wether rifle, pistol or revolver higher than one would normally expect. When winchester closed shop 94 winchesters went through the roof. Now that remington is making marlin lever actions I expect to see prices of the older marlin made lever actions go up.I was looking at a used marlin 336 in 35 remington. Was in decent shape. So I asked how much?. $450 was the reply. Left it on the table. However some dealers always seem to want to squeeze the maximum amount of money for a sale. Saw a bunch of stamped Baton Rouge P.D. nickle plated model 10's for sale. The nickle was worn away and great scabs of rust were evident. Dealer wanted $250 each. Maybe you like basket cases but not me. Frank

 

[blujax01]

Luscious and I were having a dinner date with a business associate of hers and his wife. The topic of guns came around (he brought it up) and he said: "I don't even know where you can buy a gun these days. Sporting goods sells shotguns but do you have to go to a gun show to buy a hand gun? Shortly followed with: "Whadda you mean, you can buy ammo at Wal*Mart?!"

There's your answer. Where there are sheep, there will be wolves ...

 

[J D Allen]

gunshow prices

Many dealers at the shows are trying to make maximum profit. The gun grabbers also help push up gun prices by attempting to limit ownership. When I bought my 642 from an older man at a show. It was new in box and he did check my license.

 

[HappyHunter]

"My experience is that in only one or two instances over the last 30 years or so, buying many guns at shows, has a non-FFL seller ever asked to see my ID."

This sounds terrible! And unbelievable...In my experience buying and selling at gun shows as a private dealer and a gun show attendee, I have never NOT been asked for an ID. We live near the Illinois state line in Indiana. Perhaps our vigil is higher, looking for the snake in the grass IL person trying to pick up a gun improperly.

Personally, when I make a private sell, I will see an Indiana drivers license. If I feel the slightest bit unsure of the individual, I ask to see his carry permit, if he does not have a permit there is no sale. When I close the deal I go out of my way to make the seller or buyer understand the laws, we all need to do this.

If we do not police ourselves.....somebody else will!!!

Sorry for the rant, I understand that this is a little off topic.

Fred

 

[Big Cholla]

My last gunshow experience as a seller was a real eye opener for me. I had not been a table holder for about 10 years. I observed 'table holder' FFLs placing a minimum of way over priced guns on their table and then leaving a junior partner at the table to allow them to roam the gunshow looking for under-priced bargains and to watch for the 'walk-in' with the under-priced firearm. I asked one of the 'junior partners' what was going on. He told me they only come to the show to get under-priced firearms to take back to their 'shop' and sell over the internet. It became evident to me that there were several people in this category working the show. .......... I will never attend another gunshow as a table holder. ................ Big Cholla

 

[blujax01]

I live in Ohio and met a friend at the Indy 1500 last year. I knew I couldn't buy guns there and didn't plan on it. While looking at a $10 magnet gizmo for storing guns, I noticed the Highway Patrolman being used for demonstration purposes and verbally admired it.

"It's for sale".

"Sorry, I'm from Ohio, can't buy it".

"Tell you what, pay me $410 for my $10 gizmo and I'll throw in the gun for free."

Yeah, I did ...