I'm not sure what "loophole" you're talking about. The laws at gun shows as the same as anywhere else.
Are you suggesting that private gun sales (i.e. between non-dealers) should be outlawed?
How do I Interpret Loonyland Internet Pricing of used S&Ws?
- Thread starter PhilOhio
- Start date
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I'm not sure what "loophole" you're talking about. The laws at gun shows as the same as anywhere else.
Are you suggesting that private gun sales (i.e. between non-dealers) should be outlawed?
That's where I saw this heading when I read the original post. Fan the flames of hysteria a little with a straw man here or there and get the sheeple to hang themselves.
People who are willing to surrender a little liberty for more security are deserving of neither.
I'm really pleased...overjoyed...with the outpouring of wise observations and suggestions coming out in this thread. I wish there were some way it could be distilled for both buyers and sellers at gun shows, and on the Internet. There are just so many people here with maybe 100 years or more of combined gun show and Internet buying and selling experience.
Keep it coming. I am betting we are all learning a few new twists.
And HappyHunter says, quoting me at the beginning:
""My experience is that in only one or two instances over the last 30 years or so, buying many guns at shows, has a non-FFL seller ever asked to see my ID."
This sounds terrible! And unbelievable...In my experience buying and selling at gun shows as a private dealer and a gun show attendee, I have never NOT been asked for an ID. We live near the Illinois state line in Indiana. Perhaps our vigil is higher, looking for the snake in the grass IL person trying to pick up a gun improperly.
Personally, when I make a private sell, I will see an Indiana drivers license. If I feel the slightest bit unsure of the individual, I ask to see his carry permit, if he does not have a permit there is no sale. When I close the deal I go out of my way to make the seller or buyer understand the laws, we all need to do this.
If we do not police ourselves.....somebody else will!!!
Sorry for the rant, I understand that this is a little off topic.
Fred "
Fred, none of it is off topic, and I appreciate the comments. My statement about rarely ever being asked for ID by a private seller is, sadly, the gospel truth. But on a positive note, one of those exceptions was at my first Indianapolis show a couple months ago. Not only that, but a security man at the door was doing a type of check I had never seen before, trying to verify that people leaving with guns had bought them or owned them legally, not slipped them off somebody's table. Maybe this is one more example of Indiana having preserved a little bit of what is good.
Frailer, I share your concern about all the Marxist Democrat propaganda ranting about the "gun show loophole" which doesn't exist. We shooters are between a rock and a hard place here. If we don't voluntarily, sort of informally, police ourselves, by asking private buyers for ID, we are setting ourselves up for these guys to justify new legislation severely limiting, or ending, gun show trading as we have known it. None of us want that to happen. But a few shady table holders don't appreciate this and seem too selfish to stop some of the abuses we have been reading in this thread. Blujax01's anecdote is a fine example of what goes on now and then. You would think some of these guys would be bright enough to worry about the buyer being part of a BATFE sting, but I guess not always.
And happy Father's Day to everybody. Celebrate by buying yourself another S&W.
Keep it coming. I am betting we are all learning a few new twists.
And HappyHunter says, quoting me at the beginning:
""My experience is that in only one or two instances over the last 30 years or so, buying many guns at shows, has a non-FFL seller ever asked to see my ID."
This sounds terrible! And unbelievable...In my experience buying and selling at gun shows as a private dealer and a gun show attendee, I have never NOT been asked for an ID. We live near the Illinois state line in Indiana. Perhaps our vigil is higher, looking for the snake in the grass IL person trying to pick up a gun improperly.
Personally, when I make a private sell, I will see an Indiana drivers license. If I feel the slightest bit unsure of the individual, I ask to see his carry permit, if he does not have a permit there is no sale. When I close the deal I go out of my way to make the seller or buyer understand the laws, we all need to do this.
If we do not police ourselves.....somebody else will!!!
Sorry for the rant, I understand that this is a little off topic.
Fred "
Fred, none of it is off topic, and I appreciate the comments. My statement about rarely ever being asked for ID by a private seller is, sadly, the gospel truth. But on a positive note, one of those exceptions was at my first Indianapolis show a couple months ago. Not only that, but a security man at the door was doing a type of check I had never seen before, trying to verify that people leaving with guns had bought them or owned them legally, not slipped them off somebody's table. Maybe this is one more example of Indiana having preserved a little bit of what is good.
Frailer, I share your concern about all the Marxist Democrat propaganda ranting about the "gun show loophole" which doesn't exist. We shooters are between a rock and a hard place here. If we don't voluntarily, sort of informally, police ourselves, by asking private buyers for ID, we are setting ourselves up for these guys to justify new legislation severely limiting, or ending, gun show trading as we have known it. None of us want that to happen. But a few shady table holders don't appreciate this and seem too selfish to stop some of the abuses we have been reading in this thread. Blujax01's anecdote is a fine example of what goes on now and then. You would think some of these guys would be bright enough to worry about the buyer being part of a BATFE sting, but I guess not always.
And happy Father's Day to everybody. Celebrate by buying yourself another S&W.
I just had to post another quickie here, in response to the very understandable interpretation of my original post by Mtnwinds:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frailer
I'm not sure what "loophole" you're talking about. The laws at gun shows as the same as anywhere else.
Are you suggesting that private gun sales (i.e. between non-dealers) should be outlawed?
That's where I saw this heading when I read the original post. Fan the flames of hysteria a little with a straw man here or there and get the sheeple to hang themselves.
People who are willing to surrender a little liberty for more security are deserving of neither.
Nothing could be further from the truth regarding my intent in opening this thread. I most certainly did not intend to "fan the flames of hysteria a little with a straw man here or there." I leave that to Chuck Schumer and his Leninist buddies. We haven't been talking about straw men here. These problems and abuses are real, not contrived. Somebody needs to rub the bad guys' noses in them and put a stop to it. I could point to a few gun show promoters in my area, and collector clubs running gun shows, who have completely fallen down on the job. They are not policing abusers to whom they rent tables, over and over. Everybody knows it. A little bit of spine would go a long way toward denying propaganda ammunition to our leftist enemies, not all of whom are Democrats. We in Ohio have had a bad record of sending some genuine anti-firearms stinkers to the governor's office and Washington in the recent past. Our current governor has quite a record of talking out of many sides of the same mouth, regarding the Second Amendment, and he has voted with the enemy, later trying to deny it. We shouldn't be making their work easy for them, by looking the other way and pretending some of this stuff (at gun shows and on the Internet) is not happening.
Let's do whatever each of us can, locally, to put the heat on some of these people, try to stop it, ...at least express objections privately to promoters and within collector clubs which run shows. Gun shows are an important part of my life, and for many of you, also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frailer
I'm not sure what "loophole" you're talking about. The laws at gun shows as the same as anywhere else.
Are you suggesting that private gun sales (i.e. between non-dealers) should be outlawed?
That's where I saw this heading when I read the original post. Fan the flames of hysteria a little with a straw man here or there and get the sheeple to hang themselves.
People who are willing to surrender a little liberty for more security are deserving of neither.
Nothing could be further from the truth regarding my intent in opening this thread. I most certainly did not intend to "fan the flames of hysteria a little with a straw man here or there." I leave that to Chuck Schumer and his Leninist buddies. We haven't been talking about straw men here. These problems and abuses are real, not contrived. Somebody needs to rub the bad guys' noses in them and put a stop to it. I could point to a few gun show promoters in my area, and collector clubs running gun shows, who have completely fallen down on the job. They are not policing abusers to whom they rent tables, over and over. Everybody knows it. A little bit of spine would go a long way toward denying propaganda ammunition to our leftist enemies, not all of whom are Democrats. We in Ohio have had a bad record of sending some genuine anti-firearms stinkers to the governor's office and Washington in the recent past. Our current governor has quite a record of talking out of many sides of the same mouth, regarding the Second Amendment, and he has voted with the enemy, later trying to deny it. We shouldn't be making their work easy for them, by looking the other way and pretending some of this stuff (at gun shows and on the Internet) is not happening.
Let's do whatever each of us can, locally, to put the heat on some of these people, try to stop it, ...at least express objections privately to promoters and within collector clubs which run shows. Gun shows are an important part of my life, and for many of you, also.
rburg
Member
When I first read this thread, I was pretty offended. People get that way when others seem to be accusing them of come criminal intent. Then as I read the various posts, I was also amused at the newness of many of the posters along with the low post counts. That alone doesn't cause concern as much as the combination of the two and the apparent accusations of impropriety.
One of the first things that came to mind was maybe the prices and guns the OP was seeing weren't properly identified by him. Its real easy to ignore minor differences in a model and then assume they don't make a difference in pricing. Yes, the lock makes a huge difference in both price and salability. So does the presence or absence of MIM or forged parts.
Sometimes you see a gun that is supposed to be available and in production, but getting it is nearly impossible. And I've had and currently have guns that to the inexperienced could be obtained easily for less. But then after paying all the add on's some dealers charge, there might be a significant difference in my favor. An example might be the 329 I've had up for sale for a while now. Its priced at the amount I paid for it. A local guy was interested and then decided he could order one for a little less and have it shipped in. He was kind of huffy about it , but I just let it drop. He wanted a new gun, not a barely fired one. So I just wonder how much he ended up paying the cooperating dealer near his home. In all fairness, there are only 3 big add on's. Shipping and handling (usually less that $50, but close), sales tax (inflexible at 6% here), and FFL charges (vary from $30-50).
I'd suggest we not infer criminal intent on gun show sellers unless you have a strong reason and evidence, not just conjecture. We have a similar thread running in the older revolvers section in reference to "Open on company books". The OP started and has continued with his insistence those guns were probably stolen. At least one of our posters came along and bluntly asked him if he has any evidence of any such gun being stolen. Of course there exists no such information, just conjecture.
Once at a show in Dayton, OH I was tagging along with one of my sons and was drawn to a table exhibiting a bunch of nice S&Ws. The shocker to me was the pricing at the time (these days it wouldn't be out of line at all.) So after looking at his admittedly nice guns I asked him "why so high?" He was a little offended and came back with "because they're mine and I'll price them how I want". He was right and I was a little out of line. But then he realized how strong his answer was and softened it a little by saying they were his babies and he hadn't seen anything else at the show nearly as nice. I had to agree with that. But to me he was still $500 over what I'd considered the going rate at the time.
I made a pass back by the table just before we left. He'd actually sold a few of his guns. Who knows at what price.
I've been a regular at gun shows for a long time now, back into the very early 1970s. I've not encountered anyone selling who was trying to violate any laws. I've seen a few that might have been doing it...
But I'm not comfortable implying they have criminal intent, should be banned from shows, etc.
One of the first things that came to mind was maybe the prices and guns the OP was seeing weren't properly identified by him. Its real easy to ignore minor differences in a model and then assume they don't make a difference in pricing. Yes, the lock makes a huge difference in both price and salability. So does the presence or absence of MIM or forged parts.
Sometimes you see a gun that is supposed to be available and in production, but getting it is nearly impossible. And I've had and currently have guns that to the inexperienced could be obtained easily for less. But then after paying all the add on's some dealers charge, there might be a significant difference in my favor. An example might be the 329 I've had up for sale for a while now. Its priced at the amount I paid for it. A local guy was interested and then decided he could order one for a little less and have it shipped in. He was kind of huffy about it , but I just let it drop. He wanted a new gun, not a barely fired one. So I just wonder how much he ended up paying the cooperating dealer near his home. In all fairness, there are only 3 big add on's. Shipping and handling (usually less that $50, but close), sales tax (inflexible at 6% here), and FFL charges (vary from $30-50).
I'd suggest we not infer criminal intent on gun show sellers unless you have a strong reason and evidence, not just conjecture. We have a similar thread running in the older revolvers section in reference to "Open on company books". The OP started and has continued with his insistence those guns were probably stolen. At least one of our posters came along and bluntly asked him if he has any evidence of any such gun being stolen. Of course there exists no such information, just conjecture.
Once at a show in Dayton, OH I was tagging along with one of my sons and was drawn to a table exhibiting a bunch of nice S&Ws. The shocker to me was the pricing at the time (these days it wouldn't be out of line at all.) So after looking at his admittedly nice guns I asked him "why so high?" He was a little offended and came back with "because they're mine and I'll price them how I want". He was right and I was a little out of line. But then he realized how strong his answer was and softened it a little by saying they were his babies and he hadn't seen anything else at the show nearly as nice. I had to agree with that. But to me he was still $500 over what I'd considered the going rate at the time.
I made a pass back by the table just before we left. He'd actually sold a few of his guns. Who knows at what price.
I've been a regular at gun shows for a long time now, back into the very early 1970s. I've not encountered anyone selling who was trying to violate any laws. I've seen a few that might have been doing it...
But I'm not comfortable implying they have criminal intent, should be banned from shows, etc.
mike from st pete
Member
Prohibited Persons probably pay allot less for their firearms from their fellows than we do legally at gun shows thru a dealer or not.
Just anecdotal evidence, but the last police shooting in St Pete the local mullet wrapper was saying that Nick Lil Savage Lindsy bought his piece for $140 from one of his friends. Both were under aged for handgun sales and IIRC the seller was a convict.
I have very little worry that Thug For Life is buying over priced firearms from the gun show unlicensed dealer with a "No Questions Asked" sign. And that guy should be escorted out of the show and banned for life. The guy selling his prized collection for too much because SWMBO says he needs to find his own money to buy another gun does not bother me.
As for the other over priced, if they sell to a sucker oh well "Buyer Beware". Know what you are looking at and don't fall in love with it. Negotiate for a better price or walk away is what I do.
Just anecdotal evidence, but the last police shooting in St Pete the local mullet wrapper was saying that Nick Lil Savage Lindsy bought his piece for $140 from one of his friends. Both were under aged for handgun sales and IIRC the seller was a convict.
I have very little worry that Thug For Life is buying over priced firearms from the gun show unlicensed dealer with a "No Questions Asked" sign. And that guy should be escorted out of the show and banned for life. The guy selling his prized collection for too much because SWMBO says he needs to find his own money to buy another gun does not bother me.
As for the other over priced, if they sell to a sucker oh well "Buyer Beware". Know what you are looking at and don't fall in love with it. Negotiate for a better price or walk away is what I do.
4506517
Member
I can pretty much tell you that street thugs are NOT purchasing guns at gun shows.....most of them trade drugs or pay cash for them. I can't remember the last time I confiscated a firearm that wasn't stolen. When you ask them where they get them, most of the time you get "I bought it from Jontae" or "I traded some rock to Kevon for it". Case in point last one a few weeks ago was a stolen Glock 27.....serial number on the dust cover destroyed, but not the other two serials, loaded with four rounds of rusty Tulammo from Walmart. He paid $200 for it from another thug name "Lil Strap". Dude, they aren't going to gun shows to buy guns, trust me.
As far as price goes, a seller can price a gun at whatever they wish. Just because you think it is too much, doesn't mean it is out of reach for someone else. This is a market economy, ie capitalism. If it is out of your range or at a price you don't think reasonable, why criticize what people price it at? Just keep moving......
As far as price goes, a seller can price a gun at whatever they wish. Just because you think it is too much, doesn't mean it is out of reach for someone else. This is a market economy, ie capitalism. If it is out of your range or at a price you don't think reasonable, why criticize what people price it at? Just keep moving......
PhilOhio, I have never once been asked for an ID when buying a gun from a non-FFL seller, and if I would have been asked, I would have refused to show it. There is no requirement for this AFAIK.
When selling guns, I respect the buyer's legal privacy and never ask for ID.
Punisher102
Member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2010
- Messages
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How about this, my lgs has finally got in what I have been looking for. He wants nearly 40 more then the internet auction sites, and knows it. But its right there, no waiting. So I bring one of mine in to trade, and he offers me 100 less then I paid for it, and still wants full price for his... I would need to come up with a cool 2 bills to get it...
Now I understand making a profit. and I wouldnt have had a problem paying him a 100 plus my gun, but to short change me on mine only to make a profit off of two guns makes me mad... So I found one nearly 100 bucks less then his, and I bought it. Yeah I will have to wait for it, but I can do that wait for a 100 bucks..
I guess the moral of my story is, know what you want, and how much you want to spend. Take your time, and it will happen. There is no reason to over pay for it.
Now I understand making a profit. and I wouldnt have had a problem paying him a 100 plus my gun, but to short change me on mine only to make a profit off of two guns makes me mad... So I found one nearly 100 bucks less then his, and I bought it. Yeah I will have to wait for it, but I can do that wait for a 100 bucks..
I guess the moral of my story is, know what you want, and how much you want to spend. Take your time, and it will happen. There is no reason to over pay for it.
quneur
Member
Here in Western Wa, we have Washington Arms Collectors (WAC) which puts on the biggest and usually the only gun show in these parts. In order to do business, ie. purchase a gun at their show, you need to be a member ($25/year sponsored non-voting or $35/year voting). But to become a member, you need a CCW license or equivelent + $12 for background check.
So, to attend their show its $35+50 (CCW)+12 = $97. That's before looking at any guns. The public can view guns but only members can buy and sell.
So, to attend their show its $35+50 (CCW)+12 = $97. That's before looking at any guns. The public can view guns but only members can buy and sell.
What a great thread. But sometimes I can't let one slide by,... I said earlier I was learning a lot in this thread, but it turns out my ignorance and misunderstanding of what goes on at gun shows was broader than I knew. Thankfully, it looks like help is on the way.
Rburg - I'm puzzled why you were "pretty offended" when reading this thread, adding that "People get that way when others seem to be accusing them of...criminal intent." Makes me wonder just why you would feel that way? I was also "amused" at your statement: "I was also amused at the newness of many of the posters along with the low post counts." That's classical. "Post counts" tell nobody a thing about posters here, or about me, or about their/my professional or other qualifications for commenting, or the validity of their viewpoints. But your comments shout that somebody has struck a nerve, and we have to wonder why? We could debate the propriety and ethics of it, I suppose, but what kind of person would be on the other side of various criticisms raised here, including blatant price gouging attempts, and taking advantage of young and relatively inexperienced browsers at gun shows? I would not agree that this is as American as apple pie, and that if you can get away with it, it's fine. Legally, sure. Ethically and morally...those terms still have at least a little meaning for some of us, I guess.
As for implying that the "OP" (I guess that's high-poster-count-expert talk for me) simply doesn't understand what he's looking at, at gun shows, because he's a novice, unlike yourself, presumably...wrong.
And then this one, "I'd suggest we not infer criminal intent on gun show sellers unless you have a strong reason and evidence, not just conjecture." Thanks for the suggestion, but I have to pass on it. I will counter suggest that you have no basis or insight qualifying you to minimize or discredit the accuracy of the observations and conclusions of "the OP" or others who have posted in this thread. Neither you nor I can confirm or refute them all, but there sure seems to be a lot of concensus. I can't speak for them, but I don't do conjecture unless I label it as such. I'm a fact, strong circumstantial evidence, and careful analysis guy, that having been my professional focus for many years. But I still get stung by a slick gun show seller now and then.
As for this one, I've been a regular at gun shows for a long time now, back into the very early 1970s. I've not encountered anyone selling who was trying to violate any laws. I've seen a few that might have been doing it... But I'm not comfortable implying they have criminal intent, should be banned from shows, etc. ...good for you. You've been going to gun shows for almost as long as I have. So presumably you know almost as much about the subject as I do. But obviously, we have not been going to the same gun shows, as you have not seen any of the abuses I, or the rest of the posters, have. Isn't that amazing? I'm sorry to hear that you are "not comfortable" with I/our "implying" that some of these guys have "criminal intent", a term you, not I, introduced to apparently raise the ante. Not being a mind reader, I can't comment on intent, just actions. I guess you will have to remain "not comfortable". I'm not comfortable with some of the gun show abuses which I fear may rain on the parade for all of us. I'm still unclear about some of the things happening on the Internet. Your sweeping denial of the existence of any questionable activity is simply not supported by the facts and observations of a growing number of posters in this thread alone. I've understated what is going on at some shows, as I think you, and all of us, well know. My wish would be to curtail the most visible and obvious parts of it before some of these people, or one high visibility sting, shuts us all down. A head-in-the-sand approach just gets us closer to a bad fall.
Look, we all love gun shows. But they are not hotbeds of virtue and honesty. Could you explain to us exactly what is wrong with addressing some of their shortcomings? Or do you insist there aren't any?
Again, I'm wondering why you have taken this thread so personally, as you clearly indicated? And why the effort to discredit the message bearer and my/our qualifications for speaking? "Post counts" indeed. Am I to understand that, at some point, volume of wind delivered equals unassailable expertise? I'll just have to get my tonnage up as quickly as possible, and I imagine I may be accused of working on it.
I'm sure you agree that when somebody attempts to discredit the credentials, observations, or conclusions of one or more posters here or anywhere, it is fair and reasonable to expect a response, and it may not always be the one you expect or want. Harry Truman had a saying about that. Be assured, I'm a responder.
Warren Sear - You said: "PhilOhio, I have never once been asked for an ID when buying a gun from a non-FFL seller, and if I would have been asked, I would have refused to show it. There is no requirement for this AFAIK.
When selling guns, I respect the buyer's legal privacy and never ask for ID."
I hear you, and share your respect for privacy, etc. But I respectfully suggest you reexamine your understanding of what the requirements are, at least regarding handguns. It sounds like you have been taking serious risks you honestly did not know about. A non-FFL/C&R buyer may not purchase a handgun in a state of which he is not a legal resident, period. And neither a licensed or unlicensed person may sell to him, outside his home state. This is not a gray area. Not from an FFL holder and not from an ordinary non-licensed citizen. You are setting yourself up for a sting if you, as a seller, do not ask for enough buyer identification to determine state of residency. Yes, this is the federal law. Check GCA 68. Is just about everybody breaking it? Absolutely. Is it a felony? Yep. Does "Rburg" admit that any of this might be going on at gun shows? Absolutely not! I think that most of these rules are hogwash and patently unconstitutional. But the judge doesn't want to hear my opinion on that. Until these laws are abolished, please protect yourself. Politely ask for a drivers license, military ID card, etc. That's enough. If it's your home state, and the guy looks like the one in the picture, everybody's happy. Sell the gun. No need to write it all down, at least not in my state. You complied. You did not knowingly sell a handgun to a resident of another state, without going through a licensed FFL holder. And you exercised the due diligence the law requires to make that determination. Didn't know that? Now you do.
And don't go to a gun show in another state, set up your table, and begin selling handguns to residents there, with or without an FFL. You are in deep kimchi. Long guns? No problem, unless the other state or local jurisdiction has additional rules.
Anybody care to be the latest test case on this? It's a slam dunk. The only reason the shooter community has not had more problems in this area is that BATFE has its hands full dealing with violent offenders...I would guess. Yes, "Rburg", that's my conjecture. But why keep taking chances? The guy trying to buy from you could be somebody they are tracking. Want to spin the roulette wheel?
Thankfully, it looks like help is on the way.Rburg - I'm puzzled why you were "pretty offended" when reading this thread, adding that "People get that way when others seem to be accusing them of...criminal intent." Makes me wonder just why you would feel that way? I was also "amused" at your statement: "I was also amused at the newness of many of the posters along with the low post counts." That's classical. "Post counts" tell nobody a thing about posters here, or about me, or about their/my professional or other qualifications for commenting, or the validity of their viewpoints. But your comments shout that somebody has struck a nerve, and we have to wonder why? We could debate the propriety and ethics of it, I suppose, but what kind of person would be on the other side of various criticisms raised here, including blatant price gouging attempts, and taking advantage of young and relatively inexperienced browsers at gun shows? I would not agree that this is as American as apple pie, and that if you can get away with it, it's fine. Legally, sure. Ethically and morally...those terms still have at least a little meaning for some of us, I guess.
As for implying that the "OP" (I guess that's high-poster-count-expert talk for me) simply doesn't understand what he's looking at, at gun shows, because he's a novice, unlike yourself, presumably...wrong.
And then this one, "I'd suggest we not infer criminal intent on gun show sellers unless you have a strong reason and evidence, not just conjecture." Thanks for the suggestion, but I have to pass on it. I will counter suggest that you have no basis or insight qualifying you to minimize or discredit the accuracy of the observations and conclusions of "the OP" or others who have posted in this thread. Neither you nor I can confirm or refute them all, but there sure seems to be a lot of concensus. I can't speak for them, but I don't do conjecture unless I label it as such. I'm a fact, strong circumstantial evidence, and careful analysis guy, that having been my professional focus for many years. But I still get stung by a slick gun show seller now and then.
As for this one, I've been a regular at gun shows for a long time now, back into the very early 1970s. I've not encountered anyone selling who was trying to violate any laws. I've seen a few that might have been doing it... But I'm not comfortable implying they have criminal intent, should be banned from shows, etc. ...good for you. You've been going to gun shows for almost as long as I have. So presumably you know almost as much about the subject as I do.
But obviously, we have not been going to the same gun shows, as you have not seen any of the abuses I, or the rest of the posters, have. Isn't that amazing? I'm sorry to hear that you are "not comfortable" with I/our "implying" that some of these guys have "criminal intent", a term you, not I, introduced to apparently raise the ante. Not being a mind reader, I can't comment on intent, just actions. I guess you will have to remain "not comfortable". I'm not comfortable with some of the gun show abuses which I fear may rain on the parade for all of us. I'm still unclear about some of the things happening on the Internet. Your sweeping denial of the existence of any questionable activity is simply not supported by the facts and observations of a growing number of posters in this thread alone. I've understated what is going on at some shows, as I think you, and all of us, well know. My wish would be to curtail the most visible and obvious parts of it before some of these people, or one high visibility sting, shuts us all down. A head-in-the-sand approach just gets us closer to a bad fall.Look, we all love gun shows. But they are not hotbeds of virtue and honesty. Could you explain to us exactly what is wrong with addressing some of their shortcomings? Or do you insist there aren't any?
Again, I'm wondering why you have taken this thread so personally, as you clearly indicated? And why the effort to discredit the message bearer and my/our qualifications for speaking? "Post counts" indeed. Am I to understand that, at some point, volume of wind delivered equals unassailable expertise? I'll just have to get my tonnage up as quickly as possible, and I imagine I may be accused of working on it.
I'm sure you agree that when somebody attempts to discredit the credentials, observations, or conclusions of one or more posters here or anywhere, it is fair and reasonable to expect a response, and it may not always be the one you expect or want. Harry Truman had a saying about that. Be assured, I'm a responder.
Warren Sear - You said: "PhilOhio, I have never once been asked for an ID when buying a gun from a non-FFL seller, and if I would have been asked, I would have refused to show it. There is no requirement for this AFAIK.
When selling guns, I respect the buyer's legal privacy and never ask for ID."
I hear you, and share your respect for privacy, etc. But I respectfully suggest you reexamine your understanding of what the requirements are, at least regarding handguns. It sounds like you have been taking serious risks you honestly did not know about. A non-FFL/C&R buyer may not purchase a handgun in a state of which he is not a legal resident, period. And neither a licensed or unlicensed person may sell to him, outside his home state. This is not a gray area. Not from an FFL holder and not from an ordinary non-licensed citizen. You are setting yourself up for a sting if you, as a seller, do not ask for enough buyer identification to determine state of residency. Yes, this is the federal law. Check GCA 68. Is just about everybody breaking it? Absolutely. Is it a felony? Yep. Does "Rburg" admit that any of this might be going on at gun shows? Absolutely not! I think that most of these rules are hogwash and patently unconstitutional. But the judge doesn't want to hear my opinion on that. Until these laws are abolished, please protect yourself. Politely ask for a drivers license, military ID card, etc. That's enough. If it's your home state, and the guy looks like the one in the picture, everybody's happy. Sell the gun. No need to write it all down, at least not in my state. You complied. You did not knowingly sell a handgun to a resident of another state, without going through a licensed FFL holder. And you exercised the due diligence the law requires to make that determination. Didn't know that? Now you do.
And don't go to a gun show in another state, set up your table, and begin selling handguns to residents there, with or without an FFL. You are in deep kimchi. Long guns? No problem, unless the other state or local jurisdiction has additional rules.
Anybody care to be the latest test case on this? It's a slam dunk. The only reason the shooter community has not had more problems in this area is that BATFE has its hands full dealing with violent offenders...I would guess. Yes, "Rburg", that's my conjecture. But why keep taking chances? The guy trying to buy from you could be somebody they are tracking. Want to spin the roulette wheel?
I'm not advocating having to have a license to sell a gun at a garage sale but it seems to me that if one had enough guns to set up a booth at a charge-the-public-for-admission gun show, becoming an FFL would the way to go. Purchasers can then buy with a reasonable degree of certainty that the seller is on the up-and-up. Dealers can sell without worrying whether the buyer is a felon.
I do not understand the reluctance to obtain a sellers permit other than the oft quoted "slippery slope".
I do not understand the reluctance to obtain a sellers permit other than the oft quoted "slippery slope".
rburg
Member
You can pretty much post anything you wish. To expect the rest of us to give it much credence, we read and then apply some simple tests. You've come here expressing what amounts to a strong anti-gun pro gun control argument. Intended or not, its the exact attitudes we hear constantly from the gun control activists. Some may welcome that kind of argument, most of us will not. You've pretty well outlined and used their comments on the "gun show loophole". I'm not buying it.
The post count and length of time here is almost always used to see if the poster is a real gun person or a troll trying to steer the argument toward "reasonable" gun control. And what we've seen all along is there is nothing reasonable about it. The tone and assumptions you've used are the same as we see from the mayors of the big cities, or the gun unfriendly lawmakers in places with very restrictive gun laws and non-existent gun shows. Which leads me to question your motives in your posting here.
You're right, I know nothing of your background. From what I've learned so far, I don't want to know, nor do I want to hear much of your views if they continue to advocate closing gun shows (its just about what you've outlined) and imposing New York or California types of controls. Basically you've called a fair number of our members criminals just because we go to gun shows and you've implied we engage in conduct that is illegal. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Only time tells us how dependable and the political views of posters. Yours seem to be more in line with Mr. Holders and the Obama Justice Department/BATFE than most of our gun owners. Its not against the rules of this forum for anti-gun types to post their views. But coming along and trying to act like a responsible gun owner and "one of us" and then repeating anti-gun sentiment needs to be called out for just what it is. Not really trolling, but so close it doesn't matter.
dlbx2
Member
As far as one well known auction sight goes, you pay once for posting the item, and as long as it is posted the same, they will post the item until it sells. You pay once for listing, and once for selling. So, if you have a decent S&W revolver, and don't need the money, sooner or later a collector may need what you are selling, and bingo, it is sold. I have watched guns listed for weeks with an inflated price, and then they're gone. I feel that it is good for the seller & auction site as the seller can post it and forget it, and the final value fee for selling the item will come around sooner or later. It takes a lot out of the joy of shopping for a particular gun when it is just the same stuff week after week. I had much rather post on the forum what I am looking for, as apposed to the reserve price game on a gun that has been posted on a 28 day auction. I have sent questions to individuals selling a gun that I wanted, that I could never seem to reach the reserve price on, to find out what they were looking for, and the reply is," I am going to just let it ride". Do you want to know what really hurts us all? Somebody with more money than sense paying an outrageous price, and others seeing this decides that they will get the same for their similar gun. Once again I ask, please give me the exact criteria for a "minty" revolver? I think maybe I'll just suck on a mint and ponder the meaning of life, as I step down from the soapbox! If I have repeated some of the previous posts, then accept my humble appology.
DLD
DLD
In my area we are stuck with a lot of box stores that will only carry a limited selection of guns at 10% - 20% over MSRP. Most of our small storefront FFL dealers carry some of the cheaper stuff so they can stay in business.
At gun shows most dealers come from out of area and they know what we have locally and they bring a better selection but charge more.
Try getting a Sig 220 in central IL for less than $1,400 or a S&W 686 4inch NIB for less than $900
At gun shows most dealers come from out of area and they know what we have locally and they bring a better selection but charge more.
Try getting a Sig 220 in central IL for less than $1,400 or a S&W 686 4inch NIB for less than $900
One thing I haven't seen here is the issue of accessory sales to the gun sale. That is, a gun store gets a flesh and blood customer to buy a gun, and manages to talk him into buying some ammo, some targets, a new cleaning kit, etc. In an Internet sale you don't get the opportunity to make those accessory sales, which may be reflected in dealers inflating their Internet prices.
What I would be interested in knowing, is of the brick and mortar gun stores with an Internet presence, how many charge the same price for both a face-to-face and Internet sale, and how many charge differently.
What I would be interested in knowing, is of the brick and mortar gun stores with an Internet presence, how many charge the same price for both a face-to-face and Internet sale, and how many charge differently.
oldRoger
US Veteran
I think dblx2 has put his finger on an interesting financial aspect of the situation.
As far as GB and some other sites go the cost of entry is very low. So if I have a 952 which is rather uncommon (they are seldom listed) or an 845, I can overprice it, park it in the safe and the listing can go up for months at no cost to me.
If after many months I decide to sell, I will put it up with a lower start price but a high hidden reserve and go on a fishing exhibition.
I personally am not interested in these games so I don’t play.
By the way we have exactly similar games being played here with Real Estate. Some houses are being priced as though it was 2005 after all, said a guy I know; “it doesn’t cost me anything to list maybe a sucker will come along”. Good Luck to those sellers! The difference with Real Estate is that there is a cost for listing and sooner or later all of the agents decline to play.
As far as GB and some other sites go the cost of entry is very low. So if I have a 952 which is rather uncommon (they are seldom listed) or an 845, I can overprice it, park it in the safe and the listing can go up for months at no cost to me.
If after many months I decide to sell, I will put it up with a lower start price but a high hidden reserve and go on a fishing exhibition.
I personally am not interested in these games so I don’t play.
By the way we have exactly similar games being played here with Real Estate. Some houses are being priced as though it was 2005 after all, said a guy I know; “it doesn’t cost me anything to list maybe a sucker will come along”. Good Luck to those sellers! The difference with Real Estate is that there is a cost for listing and sooner or later all of the agents decline to play.
The 800 pound gorilla in our area (Vance's Outdoors) has a huge Internet flyer each month. Same prices in store as on-line. They're the armorer for most of Ohio it seems and several times a year, they sell LEO trades at very attractive prices.
williamlayton
Member
Well now, I rarely go to gunshows anymore. They are filled with dealers who want retail + and some folks who think they are selling gold--even if it is stainless.
Gon are the days when you could make an honest buy. Everybody thinks their stuff is hot.
I can buy a Colt Python, in better shape, at an honest though high price at Collectors Firearms here in Houston than I can at a gunshow.
Blessings
Gon are the days when you could make an honest buy. Everybody thinks their stuff is hot.
I can buy a Colt Python, in better shape, at an honest though high price at Collectors Firearms here in Houston than I can at a gunshow.
Blessings
Andy Griffith
Member
Gunshows are a many varied thing. They are not all created equal, but many of the tr...I mean attendees/dealers/hunchbacks () can be a bit surly.
Strong emphasis on the bit part.
Sometimes though, this blind hog does o.k.
) can be a bit surly.Strong emphasis on the bit part.
Sometimes though, this blind hog does o.k.
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