Load Matching for Fixed Sight Guns?

[TAROMAN]

Trying to find a bullet/load combo that will shoot to point-of-aim for my .44 Special 21-4.
Is there a general rule for:
A given bullet - faster = higher or lower POI?
A given velocity - heavier bullet = higher or lower POI?
I'm sure this has been published somewhere before, just cannot find it.

 

[m1gunner]

Faster is lower.

Heavier is higher.

edit to add: info is for handguns

 

[TAROMAN]

Thanks,

I'll go to 200s and start stepping them up to get the POI down.

 

[lebomm]

That solution worked for me in a converted M28 that had kept the .357 sights. 245 gr. factory loads, all my favorite 240 loads and especially the 250 gr. - Elmer's, Skeeter's, or midrange - shot over the top of the black with a 6 o'clock hold at 25 yds. Then I tried the 200 grainers, Silvertips, Federals, and RNFP cowboy bullets. The holes dropped down into the black with the same small groups as the heavier ones.
BTW, don't bother trying .44-40 bullets, they're all over the target and lead like (deleted).
Good shooting !

Larry

 

[grub348]

krehmkej, I've got a 21-4 Thunder Ranch 44 special that shoots about a foot high at 25 yards. I called S&W, they said that SOME of the 21-4's were regulated for WW 200 grain Silvertips. I tried them but they still shoot about 8 inches high. I have tried reloading 240's 210's 200's and I am going to try 180's, but no matter how fast I get them going, they still shoot too high. I wanted a mild shooting 44 special, but if I have to speed the bullets up to 44 mag velocities I might as well shoot my 629.If you come up with a resonable load that shoots to point of aim, let me know. By the way, windage is perfect.

 

[TAROMAN]

Exactly the same problem here. Searching out loads, most discussions begin with "This shoots well in my 624".

I just ordered some 180 grainers from LaserCast. At that weight, I would imagine that a full wadcutter may perform better as it has more bearing surface.

Time will tell..

As a last resort, I do have a slightly taller front sight that might help.

 

[moxie]

Ceteris paribus, light bullets shoots lower; heavy bullets shoot higher.

 

[bubbajoe45]

krehmkej, I've got a 21-4 Thunder Ranch 44 special that shoots about a foot high at 25 yards. I called S&W, they said that SOME of the 21-4's were regulated for WW 200 grain Silvertips. I tried them but they still shoot about 8 inches high. I have tried reloading 240's 210's 200's and I am going to try 180's, but no matter how fast I get them going, they still shoot too high. I wanted a mild shooting 44 special, but if I have to speed the bullets up to 44 mag velocities I might as well shoot my 629.If you come up with a resonable load that shoots to point of aim, let me know. By the way, windage is perfect.

My early Thunder Ranch 21-4 shoots to POA with any 240 gr, from 700 to 950 fps. If anything it's an inch or two low.

 

[venomballistics]

Another thought might be to throw together multiple loads of various weights and see at what ranges they zero for you.
it shouldnt be too hard to have a load selection to address ranges between 25 on out to 150 and possibly farther.
properly loaded, 44's have an identity crisis thinking they are carbines

 

[TAROMAN]

krehmkej, I've got a 21-4 Thunder Ranch 44 special that shoots about a foot high at 25 yards. I called S&W, they said that SOME of the 21-4's were regulated for WW 200 grain Silvertips. I tried them but they still shoot about 8 inches high. I have tried reloading 240's 210's 200's and I am going to try 180's, but no matter how fast I get them going, they still shoot too high. I wanted a mild shooting 44 special, but if I have to speed the bullets up to 44 mag velocities I might as well shoot my 629.If you come up with a resonable load that shoots to point of aim, let me know. By the way, windage is perfect.

This is a 200 grainer with 15 grains of 4227. Didn't chrono it but probably 1100 f/s. As you say starting to feel like a 44 Mag. Gun didn't like 4227 one bit. Even at this level, grains of powder kept getting under the extracter and locking the gun up.

180s arrived, so next step is to see how fast I can get them up to. My old 1977 Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is the only place I found much on cast 180s in the .44.

10 shots @ 10 yards.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Suggestion

I have a suggestion for each of you to try the next time you shoot your M21.

Here is a "normal" grip. Most folks hold a revolver even lower and they have to be taught to hold it correctly. For most loads, this grip will work. Take a look and compare it to your standard grip.

Now, for the larger frame guns, the X frame for example, Jerry the great suggests a higher grip. I have used this grip when I am shooting heavy loads in an N frame with good success. It helps me control the recoil which means muzzle flip, which means higher impact on the target. Take a look:

Notice how the hand is moved up the backstrap more? This puts the muzzle plane closer to the top of your shooting hand and that helps a lot with recoil. It is a bit unnatural feeling to start with but if you have a short barreled 44Mag, this grip will really help.

It also puts the recoil more in a straight line, transferring the energy straight back into the wrist and forearm rather than creating a rotary action in the wrist.

It may be crazy sounding but give it a try.

Hope this helps!

 

[m657]

....Consider whether front sight may be a little shorter than needed???

The problem of 'point of impact' being lower than 'point of aim' is what I finally solved in my Commander last week. Dropped recipe for load from 230 down to 200 gr cast RN and lost the 6" high POI at 30'. Haven't tried other distances yet.

I'd expect the increased velocity as well as reduced recoil and barrel transit time to be a factor in the improved POI.

 

[TAROMAN]

Higher sight is next on the plan if load (and grip) changes cannot do the job.

 

[lebomm]

Krehmkej -
Have you tried 2400? All of my .44 Spls. really like it. 15 - 17 grs. under anything from 200gr. to 255gr. (17/255 is a real thumper, right up near redline)

Larry

 

[TAROMAN]

This exercise is at the moment just seeking a bullet/velocity combination that will print close to POA. I use 2400 in my .44 Magnum. Agree its a nicer powder. Just used the 4227 as I had some and there was load data readily available.

One more try on this with 180 gr bullets tomorrow, then its time for a taller front sight.

 

[fredj338]

Faster is lower.

Heavier is higher.

edit to add: info is for handguns

More like lighter is lower & heavier is higher. Push a 300gr bullet @ 1000fps or a 200gr bullet @ 900fps in a 44mag & tell me which one shoots higher. The bbl time theory just doesn't fly. It's recoil driven; lighter bullet shoot lower, generally, & heavy bullets hoot higher, generally. Now w could talka bout powders too, but one thing at a time.

 

[TAROMAN]

Back from the range. This time, I loaded the 180 grainers over 6.5, 7.0, 7.5, 8.0 and 8.5 grains of Unique. 10 of each.

In this case, it was very interesting to see the POI drop AND GROUPS GET SMALLER as I went through the loads.

8.5 is very brisk, but - gets the job done:
(I got stupid on one)

S&W 21-4 10 shots @ 10 yards.
Never believed that Unique could burn this clean, too.

Next step is to load a hundred of these and test at different ranges.

 

[Skip Sackett]

JW,
Were you able to use the grip I showed you and did it help at all?

And that looks like a good group to me, congrats!

 

[TAROMAN]

Skip,

I did try the higher hold. But, the Ahrends stocks on that revolver just didn't allow a secure grip. They force your hand into a single position.

That would probably work much better with a slick grip like the "JM" ones.

 

[Skip Sackett]

The firearm in the picture I have is a M25 in 45Colt. It has Hogue grips on it and I have had to use that grip on it when shooting, well, shall we say, stouter than normal 45Colt loads in it!

Be safe, have fun. Looks like the problem is solved. So, more velocity, with the same bullet does what? Brings the POI down? Where did the other bullets land with the lighter loads? Just asking the question.