.44 Special vs. .45, etc.

[willy]

John Taylor (BIG GAME HUNTER/ IVORY POACHER!) used a 455 webly in 1920's -1930's Africa.
He tells about killing a lion with his Webly.
He also recommends a handgun for Africa to be at least a 38 revolver or 38 colt auto.
But no matter what caliber, he insists on a full metal jacket on any round that may be needed to stop a lion from eating you.

 

[Texas Star]

I would probably chose a Colt New Service AND a Winchester M1892 chambered in 44-40.

In fact, I did arm the character Finn with a M-92 and a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer to replace the crossbow that she had on the show, but her handgun is a M&P .38 with five-inch barrel. In the stories, Finn got these from other expeditions that had perished like that in the TV episode, "Suspicion."

In later fics, set off of that strange Plateau, she often uses a .275 Rigby for her light rifle and a H&H .375 or a .450/.400 for elephant, occasionally Cape buffalo.

I based the Winchester .44 and the Mannlicher on what I knew actual expeditions often took in those days, and on Siemel's comments on how popular the M-92 was. Rossi still makes a copy of it there. We know the Challenger Expedition found tha remote plateau with the dinosaurs, etc. in Brazil because the canoes went upriver from Manaus in the two-part pilot show. And I thought those guns would go well with Finn, a cute blonde.

Most of the guns carried by the others were typical of those favored by the British gentry, although I had Ned Malone, a famous author by the later fics, use a Griffin & Howe .30/06 on a Springfield action and a .270 Winchester M-54. He was American. Also, in a safari story, Finn's secretary, Susan Wilson, had a 20 gauge Remington pump shotgun, with which she killed a hyena in her tent, and shot some chimpanzees that had taken to attacking people. She found slugs very effective on them, and Marguerite (by then Lady Roxton, the Countess of Avebury) dropped one chimp with 12 gauge Purdey. She was loaded with birdshot because the stony hill they were on looked, "snaky" to her. The chimp was so close that the shot didn't have time to sepaate much and hit the ape in a virtually solid mass.

Surplus guns being cheap wasn't a factor for these people. They were discerning and well-to-do, Finn having married Challenger in the stories after his wife died. She became an author of adventure books and a pioneer wildlife photographer and a famous huntress/adventurer. Her secretary, Susan, had been a bank clerk, and bought har own revolver, a .303 sporter from BSA, and the Remington shotgun, but Lord Roxton and the Challengers bought her a .375 H&H, Lady Roxton having taken a liking to young Susan. (Susan heroine worships Finn, who is the virtual little sister and primary hunting partner of Lord John Roxton in my stories.)

Someone mentioned that many Latin Amercan countries ban miitary calibers. I thought of that, but don't know when it began, so ignored it. I think Brazil had pretty lax gun laws until at least the 1950's. None of my fics is dated beyond 1944, and all the others are from 1922-1929.

I can well believe that Baker, as one member posted above, had Colt's revolvers. They were very popular among British adventurers in those days.

I guess that if I write another story in which different guns appear, Second Model .44 Special or .45 Colt guns may be the answer. I had one safari fic no longer on the Net where the District Commissiner in Kenya used his S&W .455 from WW I and a white hunter had a Colt New Service .45 Colt. A gentleman farmer wore a Webley-Wilkinson, Model of 1911.

These fics are fun to write, and if the urge is overpowering, I may write another. But the show hasn't been on in several years, and the fan base is waning. Still, it's fun to fantasize about the guns and other gear. (I have them use Zeiss binoculars, as many famous expeditions really did.)

 

[Texas Star]

John Taylor (BIG GAME HUNTER/ IVORY POACHER!) used a 455 webly in 1920's -1930's Africa.
He tells about killing a lion with his Webly.
He also recommends a handgun for Africa to be at least a 38 revolver or 38 colt auto.
But no matter what caliber, he insists on a full metal jacket on any round that may be needed to stop a lion from eating you.

I read that book, but he remarked also that until after WW II, FMJ bullets weren't available for the .455. Keith mentioned in, "Sixguns" that the .45 Colt penetrated well even with lead bullets, though.

I know an author named Suzanne Arruda, who has writen a good series of novels about an American adventuress who went to colonial Kenya after serving with an ambulance corps in the war. She carries a Winchester M-95, and I know the caliber, because I discused Jade's gun with Mrs. Arruda at a book signing. She was kind enough to credit me for providing gun advice in the acknowledgements in one book of the series. I've just gone blank on the caliber, but recall suggesting .303 because the ammo would be easily available in Nairobi. Jade does not carry a pistol, although she is handy with a hunting knife made for her by the foreman of her father's ranch back in New Mexico.

And Jade's boyfriend is an American pilot who wears a Colt M-1917 .45 that he kept after the war. Mrs. Arruda insisted on that aspect, and we settled on the Colt.

If you or your wife might like those books, have a look at her site, designed by her husband: www.suzannearruda.com Very colorful site, and good books based on a lot of research.

 

[Texas Star]

Why would you want to shoot a hyena? They're so cute and cuddly.

Well, they sneak around in native villages and sometimes bite off the face (or worse) of sleeping drunks, and I know of one that began ambushing people. May have been rabid.

Also, they are often kept by witch doctors and used to do vile things.

In one of my stories, one entered the tent of a girl who fortunately woke in time to shoot it as it lunged for her. That one had been trained to attack people by a witch doctor who was leading a revolt against British rule. It made for a good story.

I had another hyena, affected by mange, dash out of a cave, where the heroes were searching for the legendary Nandi "bear." It provided some excitement and let the Challengers show their marksmanship before they realized it was just a big, stocky hyena.

Great photo, BTW. Thanks for posting.

 

[sigp220.45]

I'm with the .44/40 crowd - I think ammo was widely available back in the day. I'm still trying to talk myself into a Winchester 92 in that caliber that is sitting in a nearby gun shop - it is stamped "China Navigation Co" on the barrel and probably has some tales to tell.

I'd give the intrepid hero a matching pair of Colts - a four inch New Service with stag grips and Lightning pump, both in 44/40.

 

[Homechicken]

I'd think that .455 Webley and .45 Colt ammo would have been the most plentiful in out of the way locations such as India, Africa and South America. They'd both been around for a good while by the mid 1920's. The .45 ACP was still relatively new in the 1920's. I'm not sure how reliable the supply would be at the far corners of the earth. The Colt New Service was in the middle of its production life at that time and was chambered in .45 Colt and .455 Webley among others, so perhaps that would have been a good choice to take to out of the way places. Since the main character is royalty of sorts and has a big purse, maybe he'd even have a pair of Colt New Service revolvers that had been adapted by a gunsmith to take interchangeable cylinders to fire both the Webley and Colt ammo, so that if there was a shortage of one the cylinders could be swapped so that the other cartridge could be used. I can see taking an initial supply of ammo, but weight is a factor and it would be much more practical to carry firearms that ammo could be found for locally.

If it has to be a S&W revolver, then I could see it perhaps being a M1917 in .45 ACP, though I think a local supply of .45ACP ammo might still be iffy in out of the way places the 1920's.

 

[Texas Star]

I think ammo re-supply would be a real issue only in remote Brazil, where what you brought was what you had. No nearby cities or trading posts. Kenya and India were well settled, and gun shops in Nairobi would have most common ammo, also in India, where a host Maharajah might well also have scads of spare ammo.

I'm leaning toward a .45 Colt, but the thin chamber walls in it and the .44/40 might give pause. Still, S&W was heat treating cylinders by then, and Prof. Challenger would be able to estimate the safety factor. These guns seemed safe with factory ammo. Keith blew .45 Colt cylinders, but only with overloads. He once split a forcing cone in three places! But I don't know how old the gun was.

Remember, the Challenger Expedition would have never heard of Elmer Keith until the 1930's, then only if they subscribed to American gun magazines, which Lord Roxton and Finn might do. I liked it when Finn first met John R. on TV. She looked him over and said, "Nice guns!", admiring his twin Webleys.

In my fics, they became more or less brother and little sister, Roxton focusing on Marguerite romantically, as on the show. Marguerite feels excluded from their gun talk and hunting interest and drolly calls John and Finn "The Gun People", to Veronica's and Ned's amusement.

A key need is for a handgun bullet to penetrate the brain of a big wild cat, even a tiger, or a large boar that might be savaging someone, or a crocodile. I think any caliber mentioned would kill an anaconda or python. I don't seriously entertain that they'd shoot many dinosaurs with handguns, although that happened on the show, in the case of raptors that might measure 8-10 feet and probably weighed as much as 250-350 pounds. But that should be possible, although reptiles die hard! Big monitor lizards might be a problem, if one got into the Treehouse or a hut. I recall Jungle Jim shooting a monitor in India or Malaya in a 1950's comic book. As far as I could tell, his gun was a New Service .45 Colt. I liked the Jungle Jm comics better than the TV show, which I felt had miscast Weissmuller as the character. He didn't even carry a gun on TV, just a small hunting knife. It resembled a Marble's Woodcraft style.

I just got to thinking this week which N-frame S&W an explorer might have. And whether .44 Special ammo was ever popular enough outside the USA for it to be considered. The .455 had low velocity and was designed to tumble in a human body. Maybe not too good a choice for killing big, dangerous animals, although they'd be shot only in emergencies, at close range. I'm pretty sure that a real Lord Roxton would bring his Webleys only because he liked them and intended them for protection against men and snakes. He also had that .45 auto, and would have appreciatedf its greater power and rapid reoading. He may well have gained a lot of respect for it in trench warfare in WW I. And the jacketed bullets would give better penetration in big animals.

Actually, the .45 automatics often carried by Roxton and Ned Malone on TV would be good choices. I just want him to experiment, as he might do, being a gun enthusiast. And he might well admire the .44-framed S&W's. So might American reporter Ned Malone, but I can more readily see Ned settling for an M-1917 .45, to use the same ammo as his automatic. Ned probably liked nice guns, but wasn't presented as an enthusiast, as was Roxton.

BTW, someone above said that Roxton was "royalty." No. Royals are the actual family of the Monarch on the throne. An Earl is "nobility", but not royalty, unless a Royal also has the additional title. That happens, as Prince Phillip is also the Duke of Edinburgh, and his grandson, Prince William and his bride Katherine are now also Duke and Duchess of Cambridge. But Roxton was nobility and wealthy through his family fortune. The TV show also noted that he was awarded the Victoria Cross for gallantry in WW I. That's the Commonwealth equivalent of our Medal of Honor. Roxton in the TV show was more complex, handsome, and dashing than in Doyle's book. All of the TV characters were more interesting, and all the women were added, save for Jessie Challenger, who was presented as much older than in the book, surely in part because the actress was the real wife of Peter McCauley, who played Challenger. His wife was also a director on that series. I can only imagine her reaction if she knew that I had Jessie die in my stories and Challenger marry the much younger Finn! But they click better together than some readers expected, and some skeptics later told me that they were amazed at how well that couple functions. Each filled a role that the other needed. But that's another story. This is about the gun stuff, and I think a .44-framed S&W might be too large for Finn and the other ladies to use well or carry comfortably. So, they got S&W .38's in those stories.

I do wonder how well the .44 Special fares with factory ammo. I have Marshall and Sanow's books on stopping power, and it seems to be about on par with 230 grain hardball results, but .44 barrel lengths weren't discussed. Actually, the better .38 Special loads from four-inch barrels seem to overlap .44 and .45 results unless the better modern largebore ammo is used. That was very revealing.

The flaw in the .44/40 is that the 200 grain bullets are rather stubby for caliber. Keith found that a similar softnosed .38/40 bullet failed on the skull of an elk, which nearly killed him. But Lt. Col. Vincent Fosbery, VC, commented that the .44/40 was the best revolver "killer" that he saw in use on the NW Frontier of India. Of course, he was referring to stopping power on men. Keith's, "Sixguns" does cite several examples of .45 Colt bullets killing bears. One involved a shot under the chin of a big grizzly that broke the neck.

 

[GatorFarmer]

The .44/40 was commonly to be found in Brazil back then and probably now. (The lever guns from Brazil that cowboy action shooters discovered thus chambered were all originally in production for the local market.) Colt New Service revolvers were considered (and advertised) as "THE" gun for exploring rough places, having adventures with, etc at the time. The .45 Colt and .44/40 were probably most favored for this. The latter had the advantage in that you could get a Winchester carbine that used the same ammo, and these were popular with those going to out of the way places as well. I don't think Smith and Wesson had the same market share overseas.

Personally, I'd get a Luger or Mauser in .30 caliber. Wouldn't be too hard to have some jacketed steel core bullets - or machined bronze ones - made up. There were no laws against AP ammo at the time. In the Thompson-LaGarde tests it was actually a well placed .30 Luger round that dropped a steer the fastest and most dramatically.

In China this would have been a common, and much copied, weapon. Were artillery Lugers ever made in .30? Probably for enough money the factory would have turned one out back then.

 

[Texas Star]

The .44/40 was commonly to be found in Brazil back then and probably now. (The lever guns from Brazil that cowboy action shooters discovered thus chambered were all originally in production for the local market.) Colt New Service revolvers were considered (and advertised) as "THE" gun for exploring rough places, having adventures with, etc at the time. The .45 Colt and .44/40 were probably most favored for this. The latter had the advantage in that you could get a Winchester carbine that used the same ammo, and these were popular with those going to out of the way places as well. I don't think Smith and Wesson had the same market share overseas.

Personally, I'd get a Luger or Mauser in .30 caliber. Wouldn't be too hard to have some jacketed steel core bullets - or machined bronze ones - made up. There were no laws against AP ammo at the time. In the Thompson-LaGarde tests it was actually a well placed .30 Luger round that dropped a steer the fastest and most dramatically.

In China this would have been a common, and much copied, weapon. Were artillery Lugers ever made in .30? Probably for enough money the factory would have turned one out back then.

Gator-

Actually, Theodore Roosevelt did suggest a round similar to the .30 Luger after his Brazilian trip of about 1919. But he was concerned with shooting smaller game.

My heroes had other criteria in mind.

Now this: years ago, I read in, "Guns" a story by a couple who did considerable exploration in Latin America. They found a P-'08 Luger a little overpowered and went to a Colt Woodsman .22! But like Roosevelt, they never had to shoot a headhunter or a jaguar or big caiman.

And many others have found the 9mm to be lacking in killing power on animals the size of an agouti or a brocket deer that might be taken for food. I think it says something that Sasha Siemel wore a .44. He would have had jaguars in mind, and had at least one human foe who had threatened him, one Ricardo Favel. He didn't get far enough back in the jungle to encounter Jivaro or other headhunters.

 

[model70hunter]

The 44-40 was the most potent round of this era closely followed by the 45 Colt. If milord is knowledgable and gun savy he would use what has worked most properly for others, not what is trendy or underpowered. Besides, no caliber other than the 44 MAg has such a catchy name.

Example; I saw the Leopards tail twitch and remembered the ghastly permanent wounds a Leopard carved on my friend Lord Mountbottom's face. Without hesitation I unholstered my Colt New Service 44-40 and dispatched the crazed beast whilst marking up a smidgeon of revenge for my friend.

Or go with a S&W in 45 Colt.

 

[Badkarma 1]

Given the time (1920's) my choices would be; Pistols: Webley Mk.4, Colt Fitz Special in a shoulder rig in .45 Colt, and a 1903 Colt in .32ACP for discrete carry.
Rifles: Winchester 1895 in .405, Winchester self loader in .401 for short distances. AND
SHOTGUN: Winchester 1897 trench gun with at least a case of 00 and a case of #4s!
Going into the "bush" without a shotgun is just wrong! Dale

 

[NE450No2]

There is no doubt in my mind, that I would prefer first, a S&W, and second a Colt in 45 ACP with all of my ammo in half moon clips.

I have carried as a work gun a Mod 25-2 first with half moon clips, later with full moon clips, so I have shot this concept quite a bit.

However in the time and area you describe a Webley would probably be more appro.

I have shot a 1924 Enfield "Webley" converted to 45 ACP quite a bit.

So baised on that, back in the 1920's I would have no problem carrying a Webley in 455, as that is the best combat revolver of the day.

Even now, the Enfield Webley I have shot, is very accurate, and handles very well. I would not hesitate to take it to a gunfight, even today.

It has really suprised me. It is a really good revolver

However, even back in the 1920's I would pick a 1911, IF I could get one... AND the ammo to go with it...

But in British enfluenced areas, I could get by with a 455 Webley, actually I would want a pair of them...

 

[Ron H.]

...

The flaw in the .44/40 is that the 200 grain bullets are rather stubby for caliber. Keith found that a similar softnosed .38/40 bullet failed on the skull of an elk, which nearly killed him. But Lt. Col. Vincent Fosbery, VC, commented that the .44/40 was the best revolver "killer" that he saw in use on the NW Frontier of India. Of course, he was referring to stopping power on men. Keith's, "Sixguns" does cite several examples of .45 Colt bullets killing bears. One involved a shot under the chin of a big grizzly that broke the neck.

Sir, speaking only of handguns, one distinct advantage that the .44-40 had over the .45 Colt in factory ammo of the day was bullet shape: The .44-40 bullet had a much larger meplat than the .45 Colt did. Add the Winchester '92 carbine to the mix, and the .44-40 starts looking very good.

The .45 was still the better penetrator, though, and thus probably a better "Jeeves, the lizard is eating me--shoot it, would you?" emergency item. You pays your money (or a bit of your inheritance, as the case may be) and takes your choice.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[PERAZZI]

Hmmmm. mid to late 20's?

The newest hot shot on the block would have been the Colt 1911 in .38 super....

Were talking designed for car bodies and body armor after all.


of course I'd still carry my Marlin 1895 in .40-82 or .38-56, or the Big .45-70..

 

[Texas Star]

Given the time (1920's) my choices would be; Pistols: Webley Mk.4, Colt Fitz Special in a shoulder rig in .45 Colt, and a 1903 Colt in .32ACP for discrete carry.
Rifles: Winchester 1895 in .405, Winchester self loader in .401 for short distances. AND
SHOTGUN: Winchester 1897 trench gun with at least a case of 00 and a case of #4s!
Going into the "bush" without a shotgun is just wrong! Dale

Don't know why you'd choose a MK IV Webley .455 over a MK V or VI with the cylinder made for greater safety with smokeless powder?? Or a finer-finished and smoother Wilkinson-Webley. (The WG was meant for black powder, although finely made.)

Shotgun shells are heavy and offer only short range. A .22 could kill most birds or smaller furred game. So could a .44 carbine. My stories do include shotguns, but for sport shooting of birds or with slugs for defense in safari camp. And I once had Malone save the Challengers from an angry mamba with a Winchester M-12. I've mentioned that Marguerite and Susan also loaded shotguns for snakes. For fast movers like mambas, bushmasters, cobras, etc., a shot charge is a better bet than relying on a handgun, although the latter, being always on the wearer's side, could easily save someone from a coiled snake they saw in time. I once had Finn shoot a puff adder that sneaked under the breakfast table in Kenya. She killed it with a M&P .38.

The Winchester .405 was pretty weak, compared to double rifles like the .465, handled recoil badly, and was already obsolescent. Only Americans thought it a major caliber, but Kenneth Anderson used one on big cats in southern India. But he bought it partly because he probably couldn't afford a fine double or powerful "magazine" rifle, being a man of ordinary means.

Now, here's a startler! I read a book by a British officer of average means who used either a .351 or .401 Winchester auto rifle in India. I think he had the .351. But he didn't hunt elephant, gaur, or tigers with it, and bought it because it was there and affordable. Not all officers were rich, by any measure.
Only the aristocrats and those from wealthy "trade" families had the loot.

Oh: The Colt Super .38 didn't appear until 1929, and for decades, had accuracy problems due to poorly headspacing on the semi-rimmed case, instead of the case mouth. But I could have Roxton and Finn try it, or Ned Malone. When they complained about accuracy, Prof. Challenger could research that and have the chambers modified to correct the problem.