.44 Special vs. .45, etc.

Texas Star

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Assume for the moment that you were going to be in a jungle region where you might encounter hostile natives, dangerous wild cats, possible dangerous canids (hyenas, maybe dholes in India or African wild dogs.) Venomous or constrictor snakes and crocoodiles or caimans might be a menace.

The setting might include Brazil, India, or Kenya. The time is the mid to late 1920's. (This is for a fan fiction that I may write.)

You're deciding which N-frame revolver to carry. Would you choose a Second Model or Third Model .44 Special, a .44-40, or order in .45 Colt?

Do you think the M-1917 .45 is better? What real world difference is there in factory loads between the .45 auto round and the heavier lead .44 Special, which was slower?

I'm leaning toward the M-1917, because its jacketed bullets might penetrate better than .44 Special. And then, .45 Auto Rim ammo with FMJ bullets could avoid the nuisance of fooling with half moon clips.

Have any of you shot a coyote or even jackrabbits with such factory ammo? I've read that results can be disappointing, with flatpointed bullets much more effective. But those had to be handloaded, and Elmer Keith was just beginning to publish his results with handloads.

But one character might recall the wadcutter bullets in .455 and have a mould made to cast them in .44 caliber.

Seriously, today, would you trust factory loads in .44 Spcl.? I think the Federal 200 grain lead HPs might suffice. Barrel length on these guns would be from five to 6.5 inches, not modern items with three-inch barrels, which I personally think are caliber-inappropriate.
 
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44 special versus 45 colt .. take the long colt .. 44 special versus 45 auto .. flip a coin. they run pretty close to eachother
44-40 ... good caliber but your brass tends to be thin walled which may come into play in a hostile environment. 44 magnum is sorta its evolutionary replacement and trumps all ... thats what I'd pack
 
All listed can do the job with the right loads. The biggest factor would be ammo availability. I have multiables of all listed except .44-40, actualy I have one of them too in the comemmerative 544 wagon trail but dont shoot it.
 
Assume for the moment that you were going to be in a jungle region where you might encounter hostile natives, dangerous wild cats, possible dangerous canids (hyenas, maybe dholes in India or African wild dogs.) Venomous or constrictor snakes and crocoodiles or caimans might be a menace.

The setting might include Brazil, India, or Kenya. The time is the mid to late 1920's. (This is for a fan fiction that I may write.)

You're deciding which N-frame revolver to carry. Would you choose a Second Model or Third Model .44 Special, a .44-40, or order in .45 Colt?

Do you think the M-1917 .45 is better? What real world difference is there in factory loads between the .45 auto round and the heavier lead .44 Special, which was slower?

I'm leaning toward the M-1917, because its jacketed bullets might penetrate better than .44 Special. And then, .45 Auto Rim ammo with FMJ bullets could avoid the nuisance of fooling with half moon clips.

Have any of you shot a coyote or even jackrabbits with such factory ammo? I've read that results can be disappointing, with flatpointed bullets much more effective. But those had to be handloaded, and Elmer Keith was just beginning to publish his results with handloads.

But one character might recall the wadcutter bullets in .455 and have a mould made to cast them in .44 caliber.

Seriously, today, would you trust factory loads in .44 Spcl.? I think the Federal 200 grain lead HPs might suffice. Barrel length on these guns would be from five to 6.5 inches, not modern items with three-inch barrels, which I personally think are caliber-inappropriate.

Sir, it really depends on the character. A gun-savvy fella who wanted the most powerful handgun available at that time probably would go for the .45 Colt. A character who's short of money or maybe a WWI veteran might have a surplus (or "liberated") military pistol in .45 ACP or .455. The .44 special, I dunno. Factory loads of that time were weak, and hot .44 handloads didn't seem to be common knowledge until much later. Elmer Keith didn't start experimenting with hot .44s until the mid-'20s, and even then, he wasn't widely known yet--he didn't publish his first book until 1936.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.
 
44 special versus 45 colt .. take the long colt .. 44 special versus 45 auto .. flip a coin. they run pretty close to eachother
44-40 ... good caliber but your brass tends to be thin walled which may come into play in a hostile environment. 44 magnum is sorta its evolutionary replacement and trumps all ... thats what I'd pack


Venom--

Keep in mind the time factor. The .44 Magnum didn't appear until 1956!
 
Sir, it really depends on the character. A gun-savvy fella who wanted the most powerful handgun available at that time probably would go for the .45 Colt. A character who's short of money or maybe a WWI veteran might have a surplus (or "liberated") military pistol in .45 ACP or .455. The .44 special, I dunno. Factory loads of that time were weak, and hot .44 handloads didn't seem to be common knowledge until much later. Elmer Keith didn't start experimenting with hot .44s until the mid-'20s, and even then, he wasn't widely known yet--he didn't publish his first book until 1936.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

Ron-

Your points, as usual, were well made. I wonder about the avaiibility of .44 Special outside the USA, although ammo could be brought in with the gun. Sasha Siemel told us that S&W .44's were then popular in Brazil, and he had some. But he didn't say WHICH .44! Nor do I recall if he specifically said that he'd killed a jaguar with his revolvers. He usually used a Winchester M-92 carbine or a heavy spear. And one photo shows him with a German-made "drilling"!

Keith wouldn't have had to be a factor, inasmuch as one character is a British lord who is a gun enthusiast and famous adventurer and hunter, Lord John Roxton, VC, the XVIIIth Earl of Avebury. He'd have unlimited funds and curiosity if the .455 Manstopper bullets could be adapted to other calibers. He sometimes wore a brace of nickled Webley MK VI revolvers on the TV show on which the fan fics are based. Otherwise, he had a Colt M-1911 .45. His pal Prof. George Challenger chose a Colt SAA .45, probably for power, simplicity and easy repairs under primitive conditions.

Challenger was a famous scientist who might well be intrigued with bullet shapes, in part to interest the War Office in better handgun ammo. He sold inventions, after all.

Come to think of it, I already have Roxton making improved .38 Special ammo for M&P revolvers carried by his wife Marguerite and their friends Finn Challenger and Veronica Malone. Veronica shot a renegade Kikuyu warrior with one of those lead HP bullets in another story.

The TV show is, "Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's the Lost World", BTW. Many of you probably saw some episodes when it was popular. Some of my fics take place after they've left the Plateau. Other guns would be available.

Also, I just found myself wondering what I'd choose in their boots. Especially if limited to factory ammo then.

I do know that .44-40 and .45 Colt ammo were available in British colonies then. Never seen a British comment on .44 Special.
 
If you are set on an N-Frame, I think the most reasonable would be milsurp Model 1917 .45 ACP.

But realistically, a milsurp Colt .45 would be more likely. There were a lot more of them available. But taking into consideration the type of wild animals listed, maybe even a Colt SAA .45 for its greater stopping power, despite its vastly slower reloading time.
 
If you are set on an N-Frame, I think the most reasonable would be milsurp Model 1917 .45 ACP.

But realistically, a milsurp Colt .45 would be more likely. There were a lot more of them available. But taking into consideration the type of wild animals listed, maybe even a Colt SAA .45 for its greater stopping power, despite its vastly slower reloading time.


Yeah, or a Colt New Service .45. But I have Colt's cylinder timing problems with their DA revolvers in mind. I had one made in the 1930's that was near new and ran fine. It'd shoot alongside a M-29 .44 Magnum, which impressed me. Handled recoil better than S&W's made before Magna grips appeared, too. But I could have Lord Roxton carve ivory or rosewood grips that amounted to Magnas. In fact, he might write to S&W, suggesting that they offer similar grips.

I should probably quit fantasizing about this and go get groceries... :D

Oh: Colt published a ittle book in the 1930's, in which customers described their experiences in using Colts afield. One British lady in India killed a sloth bear with a New Service .45. And a couple of men told how they shot black bears with a .44/40 and a Govt. Model .45.
 
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Based on Lord John's pedigree, Webleys sound exactly right ... the 1911 seems too American for British aristocracy and military.
 
I'd go with a WWI veteran's second model hand ejector, converted from .455 to .45 colt for increased power. It could also be machined to take half moon clips and .45 acp, I think......
 
In the early 60′s, J.D. Jones and Lee Jurras developed the first true high-performance handgun ammunition for revolvers and auto-pistols which was marketed as Super Vel Ammunition. The basics of this ammunition are used by every manufacturer in the world that manufactures high performance handgun ammo today.

So, for your pre-WWII time frame, you can pretty much forget any kind of specialized high performance handgun ammo. Also, its my impression that reloading of ammo was no where near as common then as it is now.
 
For India or Kenya the 455 would be more commonly available. In Brazil it would not. I don't think that the 45 AR was ever loaded FMJ. My personal choice would be either a 44 Special or a 45 Colt. And I would hope to have a Lyman nutcracker with dies to reload with.
 
For factory loads in the 20's I would probably go with the 45. If the character was a devoted disciple of Saint Elmer then go with the 44.
 
Given time period and locations I'd think .45 ACP for ammo avalability. And a M1917 Colt or S&W, for the same reason. (lots of them around at reasonable prices) Also quick reloads w/moon or half moon clips.

Second choice, Colt SAA / .45 Colt. 44/40? good cal. But would ammo be that common in those areas?
 
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Just had to check the SCSW to make sure it was available. 44HE, either a triple lock or a second model, in 38/40. This to go with my Winchester 1892 SRC, also in 38/40.

You say your guy is gun-savvy. Ain't nobody gun-savvy going into the jungle with just a pistol. You say he's rich. That would allow him to get the best. 38/40 was rare, in N frames, but it was available. 5" barrels were also rare, but I bet that in 1922, if I called up S&W and told them to make me a 5" triplelock in 38 WCF, silver plated with carved ivory grips and a gold bead Patridge front sight, and here's the check, I'm pretty sure they'd make it. It's amazing what you can get done if you have money.

Many of the more knowledgeable gun folk in the old west preferred the 38/40 because it "hit harder". This would be my reason for choosing it over the 44/40.

It is true that the 45 Colt was a more powerful round, but at the time there was no rifle chambered for it. The ability to shoot the same ammo in rifle and pistol is a plus, on a trek, which means either 32/20, 38/40 or 44/40.

I would have a real rifle, but that would be being carried by one of my "boys". That might be a large-bore lever, on the order of TR's "big medicine", or it might be a 500 or larger Nitro double. Depends on the jungle. But that little Winchester would be my constant companion.
 
In the scenario you described, either the .45 long colt in the S&W 1917 or the .455 Webley. I don't believe anything else would be plausible. There would have been tons of Enfields and Webleys prior to WWII, semi autos after. In all my reading on Africa, I only recall two instances where details were given on handguns. Sam Baker mentions carrying a "Colt's revolver" and time wise, the latest it could have been was a Mdl 1860. And Mienertzhagen talks of carrying a 38/55 Enfield during his early exploits (and incidentally, slipping a .25 auto into his pocket for a meeting with Hitler).
 
I'm not sure about Brazil. But in my travels anywhere south of the Rio Grande, the powers that be don't look kindly on military cals. .45 ACP and some places question .45 Colt! .44 special or .44/40 would be your best bet.
 
Why would you want to shoot a hyena? They're so cute and cuddly.:rolleyes:

hyena-men.jpg
 
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